axefby posted:

speaking as someone who's lived through this kind of thing, i think all the confusion around labels is the most realistic part of this manga. there's a lot of pressure from heteronormative society to accept an all-or-nothing label so you're easier to understand, but people aren't so simple.

Even in more divergent sections of society (or other societies entirely), labels are still extremely powerful. Humans are really consistent in their desire for simplicity. Totally agree with you though.

I love Octave when I first read it so many years ago. This is my third time reading it again and I noticed things I missed on my first and second read. I felt confused with the story and more confused that I didn’t remember feeling confused on my previous readings. Is it because I matured as a person? Is it because I have more relatable life experience? I am quite sure when I read it again in the future, it will hit differently.

I always found Octave similar to Bloom Into You: while BIY is more about love, Octave is more about sexuality. As a person confused with their sexuality themselves, I can't help but empathize with Yukino's journey of discovering herself.

Octave was one of the first yuri manga I ever read. I read it here right after watching the movie Carol and realising that adult drama yuri was something truly incredible. It's stange considering that it's an often heartbreaking drama but Octave helped me with a pretty difficult time in life. It reminded me that everyone is worthy of love even when they feel broken and make mistakes, and that you can grow beyond your insecurities if you accept the kindness of others. I wish more people saw that the characters' flaws and their lack of clarity is really the point of the work and creates its message of connection and healing. It's so exciting that Akiyama Haru is publishing more work, it feels like something wonderful from the past is re-emerging.

Setsuko and Yukino are a complicated couple, no? But , they truly love each other and will always be happy together.. no matter what!

It's good. I wouldn't call it a masterpiece, but there were a lot of aspects to it that I thought were realistic and well done. The insecurities of young adults and 20-somethings, the casual homophobia, the narcissistic way in which people this age are figuring themselves out. All of that was well done, but it didn't quite grab me at any point. I never really felt connected to it the way I do for some stories. It felt like there was artistry lacking. The plot just kind of moves forward because things need to happen rather than because it feels well crafted.

More importantly, did anyone else feel like Shiori and Maki's stories were left unresolved? I feel like I still don't know what Shiori's deal is. In Chapter 28 the little side introduction panel implies that Shiori also has a girlfriend, but I didn't think she'd ever mentioned actually seeing someone so that was confusing. And the last few chapters seemed to imply to me that Maki had a crush on Yukino, maybe, but since we see barely anything of Maki it just felt weirdly written.

These bitches are messssyy, but they really are a couple, not everything is great when you're in a relationship but what is important it's to grow together and truly love and accept each other

This has got to have some of the worst characters I've ever seen. Seriously the main girl is so annoying and the drama centered around her is so bad it's hard to buy into it. The girl could break up into some random "deep" philosophical internal monolog over the smallest thing. You'd think she's a philosopher or something.

I loved this manga, and hated just one part, a huge part and it was just brushed over...... Yukino cheated, she f'ed a man while she was in a relationship, and the best response from her was, i thought you said i could? Like wtf? And that was that it was almost like the author had to put in a cheating schene and then just left it without any true closure, like i cheated..... moving on...... WTFH!!!!!!!

and the best response from her was, i thought you said i could?

Not quite. It wasn't "I thought you said I could", it was "I thought you said I should", which is a huge difference. It's not just brushed over either, they do talk about it and solve the misunderstanding.

I loved this manga, and hated just one part, a huge part and it was just brushed over...... Yukino cheated, she f'ed a man while she was in a relationship, and the best response from her was, i thought you said i could? Like wtf? And that was that it was almost like the author had to put in a cheating schene and then just left it without any true closure, like i cheated..... moving on...... WTFH!!!!!!!

A lot of people have this reaction. But Yukino did think she had "permission," and she had reason to believe that--it was a serious misunderstanding between two people whose relationship at that point was somewhat poorly defined (and where one person had no previous sexual experience at all and the other one had experience with both men and women).

https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/octave_ch06#21

And her partner forgave her. What further "closure" was necessary besides "moving on"? Should she be publicly punished, or the relationship ended forever because she was naive and she fucked up? Sure, Setsuko had the "right" to end the relationship with Yukino, but that's not what she wanted.

Seriously, I have never figured out what people who hate the Yukino cheating part want to have happened--her getting burned at the stake? Setsuko denouncing Yukino to all her friends?

I agree with Blastaar. The cheating was one of the most important developments in the story. Before that point, Setsuko was deliberately vague about their relationship. Yukino was a very damaged person, suffering from a deep insecurity, which drove her to make an insensitive and perhaps even cruel decision. This forced them to confront each other, but more importantly, it forced them each to confront themselves. That's what I really liked about this story. The characters are very human: imperfect, insecure, damaged. They hurt each other, and they hurt themselves. But they both decided that what they had together was worth repairing, and ultimately they were able to openly deal with their issues as adults.

I agree with Blastaar. The cheating was one of the most important developments in the story. Before that point, Setsuko was deliberately vague about their relationship. Yukino was a very damaged person, suffering from a deep insecurity, which drove her to make an insensitive and perhaps even cruel decision.

You’re right, although I’d almost qualify her sleeping with the guy not so much as making a “decision” so much as going with the flow in a very confusing and disorienting situation at her friend and former colleague’s concert.

Don’t get me wrong—I’m not saying she’s any less ethically culpable or that it’s less “cheating” than if she consciously said to herself, “I’m going to have sex with this man, even though it’s being unfaithful to Setsuko.” It’s just that her confusion about, “Who am I and what do I want?” comes to a crisis and ends up with her doing the wrong thing.

Blastaar posted:

Seriously, I have never figured out what people who hate the Yukino cheating part want to have happened--her getting burned at the stake? Setsuko denouncing Yukino to all her friends?

I had similar conversation in different thread. I get people not liking that MC of yuri manga slept with guy (purity crowd) and idea of cheating in general, which is understandable and is something that is a big no-no for me as well. But regardless of w/e it was justified or not (hot-take, I think Yukino did nothing wrong), I agree I don't know what else people expected to happen. They cleared misunderstanding, they talked about it, they accepted what happened, but decided to stick together and work on improving their relationship, so nothing like that happens again. Saying it didn't matter, wasn't addressed and there was no punishment or consequences is just plain wrong. Makes me feel like we read different manga.

It’s especially disconcerting because (from my POV) this is one of the most emotionally nuanced and overall grown-up (which is not to say that the characters always act with emotional maturity) yuri manga I’ve ever read, while quite a few readers dismiss it out of hand as complete trash, excoriate the author for all sorts of transgressions, and generally treat it as the lowest of the low, etc.

It’s got a very grounded but complex storyworld (especially for a story mostly focused on a main-pair relationship), with the various aspects of success and failure in the idol world, and the vicissitudes of earning a precarious living (the struggles of the laundromat are just one example), and even a multi-layered hometown backstory.

And it’s also got actual men playing a variety of roles, from the horrendous sleazy boss, to the character-foil brother, the one-night stand, and the sheepish idol-fanboy who recognizes Yukino from an old magazine.

(It’s been kind of frustrating in other forum threads when people bring this series up as a reference—usually negatively—because I so want to discuss it in detail but it’s clearly off topic for those other places. This is one I come back to fairly regularly, and I’m always seeing a little something new.)

last edited at Aug 2, 2022 8:17PM

Blastaar posted:

Seriously, I have never figured out what people who hate the Yukino cheating part want to have happened--her getting burned at the stake? Setsuko denouncing Yukino to all her friends?

I had similar conversation in different thread. I get people not liking that MC of yuri manga slept with guy (purity crowd) and idea of cheating in general, which is understandable and is something that is a big no-no for me as well. But regardless of w/e it was justified or not (hot-take, I think Yukino did nothing wrong), I agree I don't know what else people expected to happen. They cleared misunderstanding, they talked about it, they accepted what happened, but decided to stick together and work on improving their relationship, so nothing like that happens again. Saying it didn't matter, wasn't addressed and there was no punishment or consequences is just plain wrong. Makes me feel like we read different manga.

Having been cheated on by someone going through a bit of an identity crisis, I really connect to that arc on a visceral level. It's rough reading it while mentally reliving the worst period of my life, so I get why some people might react so negatively to it. Having had that experience, part of what makes it tough to read is that it is somewhat realistic given the characters' ages and experiences. At the same time, that's also why I can empathize with the characters and the way they choose to move past it instead of letting it end their relationship.

For a relationship to survive something like this, two things need to happen: (1) you can't dwell on it or constantly remind your partner, and (2) you need a promise that it will never happen again. Trusting that promise is probably the tougher part. But perhaps the first is why some feel like it's not fully addressed? I feel like the story addresses both of these points rather well.

last edited at Aug 3, 2022 12:44AM

i hate this.

I’ve been going through this site like it’s my job and I think this may be my favorite manga I’ve read so far.

I am a sucker for a depressed and confused protagonist, love Shinji Ikari of course, so the moment that I saw how this story was playing out, I was hooked.

I don’t think I’ve ever been as invested in a yuri manga characters motives and feelings as I have for the protagonists here, I was stressing the hell out for some of these chapters!

Absolutely adored it, and will be bugging my friends about it for the foreseeable future.

Friendofthegrummles posted:

I’ve been going through this site like it’s my job and I think this may be my favorite manga I’ve read so far.

I am a sucker for a depressed and confused protagonist, love Shinji Ikari of course, so the moment that I saw how this story was playing out, I was hooked.

I don’t think I’ve ever been as invested in a yuri manga characters motives and feelings as I have for the protagonists here, I was stressing the hell out for some of these chapters!

Absolutely adored it, and will be bugging my friends about it for the foreseeable future.

Well, read Akiyama Haru's other work then. https://dynasty-scans.com/series/brides_of_iberis

Read it again after a long time. Some great comments in here too btw, so I'll focus more on my thoughts of what struck me rather than an actual analysis.
I can definitely see why some people hate it, I found this quite exhausting overall, but there were so many nice moments of coziness that I really felt like reading the whole thing again.

1 - The themes are great and mesh well with one another : the cruel entertainment industry, finding yourself in the world as well as in relationship to other people, the exploration of sexuality, moving on from the past, dealing with how other people perceive you, the struggles with money, the way a job can enmesh with your personal life, how women and especially lesbians are perceived, and the general confusion of that age period.
Were the themes well executed though is an entirely different question, which constitute the other points.

2 - Mood : I find that the times where we just see Yukino casually being with Setsuko to be really good. The way they just talk about their daily lives just feels very genuine and sincere. Same for the scenes where we see them with Mari - there is this cozy vibe and it really feels like Yukino has found a home of sorts. On the other hand, when Yukino is just monologuing to herself, the mood is almost suffocating. Everything feels like a disaster, when she could, you know, communicate ? I know she's insecure and that's a big part of her character, but damn if that's not unbearable at times.

3 - Drama : I just dislike drama overall so I don't have anything nice to say about it. Not only do the main drama arcs not make much sense to me (Yukino cheating and being unsure about moving with Setsuko) but they are also interspersed with droplets of angst throughout, which just made me wish the two characters could just ... get along ? Interestingly, I wasn't THAT bothered by the cheating arc and what followed (I'm mostly just confused) because honestly Setsuko seemed to have recovered pretty quickly all things considered - like within the same chapter she can still talk to Yukino. On the other hand, the constant dripping of angst and drama throughout really weighs you down emotionally, especially because I expected it to end in the last volume but it didn't, though Yukino was better at handling it.
Otherwise, when the story isn't on drama mode, it has some pretty great dialogues, which flow well and feel very real. I feel like the author is more than capable of making an interesting story without resorting to so much drama, idk.

4 - Other characters : I'm surprised (in a good way) at how likeable Mika, considering that she's supposed to be this inacessible famous person, yet she helps Yukino throughout the series as a good friend. In general, there are many other likeable ones, such as Mari, Risa and Oozawo, so it kind of makes Yukino seem like a huge crybaby at times.
Obviously, some characters are pretty awful. Like I don't really get what Shiori's whole deal is ? She just enjoys hurting Yukino for her own amusement, but I feel like that that type of person would be more concerned with advancing their career rather than that type of petty games, idk ? Speaking of which :

5 - Narcissism : I like that we can see the several sides of narcissism (not just the self-absorded + grandiosity kind), since Yukino's self-deprecation and desperate attempts at getting others to like her are a form of narcissism. It's kind of weird though because we don't know much about her childhood pre-idol times, so I don't know if it's well written per se, but I liked how it was exposed. That being said, it was again quite unenjoyable to read through at times. Maybe Yukino is supposed to be unlikeable to some degree ? Not sure. She has experienced a LOT at a young age all things considered, so you also feel like rooting for her when you experience some of what she goes through (being lost after graduation, social isolation, etc.)

Overall though, I think it's one of the more important stories on this site for me, even though I don't like it for many reasons. I wouldn't call it a masterpiece, because honestly I feel like it stands out just because there isn't much like it to compare with. But it comes from a place of sincerity about life and its hardships that is really nice to read. So I'm glad I read it, I liked the ending too, but it was an exhausting read so I would definitely suggest to be wise about the time you read through this.

last edited at Jul 26, 2023 2:43PM

Yukino must be one of my most disliked protagonists in all yuri manga that I have read. Her lies are completely out of control. I do not see why anyone would be interested in her. If you decide to stay inside the closet, you can do so without lying by simply not talking about certain subjects. She could not even tell her mom the truth about moving in with Setsuko, when the mom clearly is not homophobic. Notice that there is only ONE homophobe inside the story, and that was Yukino's best friend in high school, and even she ended up not being a homophobe towards the end of the story. Everyone else seems to "gets it" when it comes to the relationship between Yukino and Setsuko, even though they were told that the two of them are just "friends".

She also lies to Shiori, a lesbian, and frankly Shiori should ask for a new manager.

I do understand the problem of Homophobia, the manga was drawn around early 2010s. This was drawn some 13 years ago, so Yukino does have a legitimate reason to avoid coming out of the closet. It is the way she stays in the closet that makes me dislike her. I wonder what sort of persona Yukino will have if the manga would be re-drawn, now being 2020s.

Iberis is a much better manga.

last edited at Dec 8, 2023 6:36AM

Yukino must be one of my most disliked protagonists in all yuri manga that I have read. Her lies are completely out of control. I do not see why anyone would be interested in her. If you decide to stay inside the closet, you can do so without lying by simply not talking about certain subjects. She could not even tell her mom the truth about moving in with Setsuko, when the mom clearly is not homophobic. Notice that there is only ONE homophobe inside the story, and that was Yukino's best friend in high school, and even she ended up not being a homophobe towards the end of the story. Everyone else seems to "gets it" when it comes to the relationship between Yukino and Setsuko, even though they were told that the two of them are just "friends".

She also lies to Shiori, a lesbian, and frankly Shiori should ask for a new manager.

I do understand the problem of Homophobia, the manga was drawn around early 2010s. This was drawn some 13 years ago, so Yukino does have a legitimate reason to avoid coming out of the closet. It is the way she stays in the closet that makes me dislike her. I wonder what sort of persona Yukino will have if the manga would be re-drawn, now being 2020s.

Iberis is a much better manga.

I think you fail to understand the trauma Yukino went through as an idol where she was constantly judged by everyone. Then when she came back from her failed idol career she had to constantly live being judged by all her peers. She has such a deep fear of being judged that of course she'd feel the need to lie to avoid people judging her relationship.

Even if the mom did not seem homophobic, she did not necessarily say anything that proves she would have accepted them as a couple. All she said was that she liked Iwai and for Yukino to treat her friends well. She could just be saying this to support Yukino through the rumors like (I don't believe the rumors so don't worry about it). The last thing we see the mom say is "I have faith in you". This is an incredibly vague statement and just puts pressure on Yukino to not be a disappointment to her family. For example I read that as "I don't believe the rumors because I have faith in you that you're a good daughter and you're not gay." Of course it could mean something else but that's how I understood it.

Kamo was homophobic til the end. Sure she was starting to change her views, but only after talking to her boyfriend about it. She was so bothered by Yukino being gay that she chose her feelings about it rather than respecting Yukino's and outted her to her boyfriend. And then because she didn't keep Yukino's secret, her boyfriend outted her to everyone in their town (which again shows a blatant lack of respect for Yukino's feelings). Then when they met up Kamo spent most of the time defending her boyfriend instead of supporting Yukino. Kamo was also immediately happy to hear that Yukino got into a het relationship and was way more supportive about it when Yukino lied about it. I don’t think you know how traumatizing it is to be rejected by the first person you trusted enough to come out of the closet to (she didnt even come out to Kamo on her own and was pressured to admit it). How Kamo initially reacted is why Yukino continuously stays in the closet and always feels the need to lie about it first.

There's no indication that her classmates "get it". They might not say anything to her face, but they definitely talk about it (that's how the rumors spread so fast) and that's what Yukino is afraid of. She knows that no matter what she does, no one will see her relationship as "normal" and since it's Japan, will constantly be pressured to conform.

She lies to Shiori because she was afraid of being seen through immediately. Shiori made her self conscious about the way she was acting because up to this point Yukino thought she was doing a good job blending in. Yukino was still trying to figure herself out and be comfortable with herself, but here comes a stranger saying "I know what you are". During their convo she even does the thing you said she should: lie about her relationship by omission but Shiori is relentless about making her come out before she felt ready to. Plus Shiori was just being plain creepy and sexually harassing her even after Yukino kept rejecting her advances and was obviously uncomfortable.

Again the whole point of Yukino is that she's afraid of being judged and was doing her best to appear "normal" only for everyone to tell her she isn't. The story is about her overcoming this fear and being more confident about who she as a person is because the world will never be as perfect and understanding as she wants it to be

last edited at Dec 8, 2023 2:09PM