It feels a bit inconclusive to me, but I guess that's not bad. Not every loose end gets tied up in real life we just move on

to me this story was just sorta non-conclusive.

I definitely feel the ending is a little too open ended, to where I think there could totally be enough potential for some more chapters. But, I still feel like it's an appropriate conclusion. The coffee metaphors really says it all. Some people ask for bitter stuff, despite not liking the taste of it. Just like how every character who reacted to Kyouko drinking the coffee, we were all drawn into something we enjoyed at first but left us with a sad and empty feeling. I didn't like the conclusion, but it's fitting. The only thing that kind of pisses me off, too much to want to reread the story, is the mutual feelings between Kyouko and the big sis. They both like each other to the point where even the husband knows it, and they both seem to be aware of their feelings. But, the sister straight up rejects Kyouko and abandons her. I'm glad Kyouko sent those flowers. Remind that bitch how she messed up.

The coffee metaphors really says it all. Some people ask for bitter stuff, despite not liking the taste of it.

You say bitter, but I'd say it's wholly the model of a tale that leaves us with "bittersweet" feelings.

last edited at Nov 10, 2021 11:45PM

It's nice to read a story where grownup people deal with grownup problems and everything isn't laid out neatly and schematically. The plot of this is different from Run Away With Me, Girl, but the themes are the same – the way that compulsory heterosexuality deforms queer love, and the way that it leads queer people away from their authentic selves by concealing that there are other alternatives available to them than falling in love with a member of the opposite sex, getting married, and starting a family. I think the way in which heterosexuality exists in this story makes its message more, not less, queer (although it also makes it less yuri, in the sense that "yuri" as a marketing category is largely about depicting a homosocial as well as homosexual world with the messy interface between genders largely airbrushed out, idealized and streamlined for the consumption of a straight, male audience).

At this point, everything Battan produces is buy on sight for me. I love her art style, and I love the way she tells stories. She reminds me a lot of Takako Shimamura and Tomoko Yamashita. I wish there were more mangaka like them.

last edited at Nov 11, 2021 1:20AM

i think this could've work more if it was longer? the time skips confused me as hell..
anyway, i just wanna bonk ruri's sister's head so bad. they could've had a great life as a couple, as a family, and she wasted all of it.
but this was realistic enough tho. a lot of lesbians deal with comphet, specifically this kind of situation. i still like this and i damn love the art style.

last edited at Nov 11, 2021 12:34AM

I love that this is an adult story with a lot of verisimilitude that doesn’t wrap up neatly. It makes me think of how I’ve had therapists that were like, “we’re gonna get in there, open things up, I’ll help you hold them, and then you leave the session feeling comforted,” and therapists who were like, “our work in here is to make you productively uncomfortable and then leave you there.” In the former method, the work is done in the session; in the latter, it’s done as you hold difficult feelings and process what happened. I think this story is the latter type.

A bit underwhelming

The plot of this is different from Run Away With Me, Girl, but the themes are the same – the way that compulsory heterosexuality deforms queer love, and the way that it leads queer people away from their authentic selves by concealing that there are other alternatives available to them than falling in love with a member of the opposite sex, getting married, and starting a family. I think the way in which heterosexuality exists in this story makes its message more, not less, queer

Yeah, but queer love wins in the end in the other manga. If I wanted to read about comphet winning I'd just read UK politics.

Yeah, but queer love wins in the end in the other manga. If I wanted to read about comphet winning I'd just read UK politics.

At the end of the story (spoilers tagged):
- Kyouko is flirting with a woman who seems receptive.
- Ruriko has broken up with but is still friends with a boy, and is heavily implied to have figured out that she's a lesbian, if not in a relationship with another woman.
- Nacchan is the only one of the three stuck in the comp het salt mines, and seems to have made her peace with her choices, even if her husband has not.

I don't think it's a matter of comp het "winning", it's about how the various main characters navigate the complications it causes to their lives and self-images, and it feels very grounded and, to me at least, not that pessimistic. This isn't really a romance manga, and the ending is bittersweet, but I found it to be a touching character study and I appreciated its mood. Kind of like a less complicated Even Though We're Adults.

Can’t say I enjoyed it. Run away with me girl was great but this wasn’t nearly as good. It wasn’t even depressing, just made me feel bummed. The ending was a let down for me, although it is appropriate. Don’t like Nacchan at all, she pretty much dug her own grave. Kyouko was fine, her part in the story was pretty sad but I’m glad she’s moving on. The sister was kinda meh, didn’t like how she led the guy on but at least she’s cool now. I think I’m just gonna try and flush it from my memory and find something better

last edited at Nov 11, 2021 5:16AM

At the end of the story (spoilers tagged):
- Kyouko is flirting with a woman who seems receptive.
- Ruriko has broken up with but is still friends with a boy, and is heavily implied to have figured out that she's a lesbian, if not in a relationship with another woman.
- Nacchan is the only one of the three stuck in the comp het salt mines, and seems to have made her peace with her choices, even if her husband has not.

You'll notice that only one of those 3 is an actually canon confirmed couple, and the rest are implied at best

It feels like the sort of thing I'd expect from a het writing about queer love and seeing it as a chance to just throw in lots of angst but not actually confirm anything queer in the ending

last edited at Nov 11, 2021 5:44AM

If I wanted to read about comphet winning I'd just read UK politics.

Eh, this reads much more to me like a bisexual figuring things out and settling down with someone who gives her some modicum of happiness. Nacchan fell in love with a girl who made her miserable. Rather than figure out how to solve those internal issues, she moved onto the most convenient person she could find. A guy who loved her, who makes her feel good, who’s willing to forgive her carrying a torch for that old love years later. It’s not an angsty or unpleasant end. Everyone is okay, and that’s enough.

It's nice to read a story where grownup people deal with grownup problems and everything isn't laid out neatly and schematically. The plot of this is different from Run Away With Me, Girl, but the themes are the same – the way that compulsory heterosexuality deforms queer love, and the way that it leads queer people away from their authentic selves by concealing that there are other alternatives available to them than falling in love with a member of the opposite sex, getting married, and starting a family. I think the way in which heterosexuality exists in this story makes its message more, not less, queer [...]

Even though it's definitely a theme that this story touches upon, I can't not point out the fact that heteronormarivity was only partly the cause of Nacchan leaving Kyouko. While it may have been her coworkers' gossip that lead to her giving a chance to Ryunosuke, her decision to leave Kyouko had more to do with her own insecurities. Perhaps she first started feeling dejected because of her coworkers comments about her being a part-timer, but the truth of the matter is, she felt inferior to Kyouko. And her choosing Ryunosuke was because she felt more confident with him; not only because that would be considered "normal", but also because she didn't find him so incredibly radiant, as she did Kyouko. So I don't think that this was a problem that you could simply blame compulsory heterosexuality for.

This story definitely touched upon a number of themes, but I feel like it is better read as an exploration of these characters, the situations they had to face and the motives behind their actions, rather than a story built around a message that the author wanted to send across.

last edited at Nov 11, 2021 10:22AM

This was great, I know we all might have been expecting or hoping for the grand sweeping romanticism of Run Away With Me Girl, but this is also good.

It's bittersweet and deftly portrays how each character makes peace with the varying aspects of a love that was/is not everything they wanted, but are still happy to have experienced and still hold dear, despite the pain associated with it.

To me, this manga is a "treasure" :')

Nacchan fell in love with a girl who made her miserable. Rather than figure out how to solve those internal issues, she moved onto the most convenient person she could find. A guy who loved her, who makes her feel good, who’s willing to forgive her carrying a torch for that old love years later. It’s not an angsty or unpleasant end. Everyone is okay, and that’s enough.

Dakara... bittersweet.

This story definitely touched upon a number of themes, but I feel like it is better read as an exploration of these characters, the situations they had to face and the motives behind their actions, rather than a story built around a message that the author wanted to send across.

In my experience, writers and artists very rarely start out to teach a moral or (except for overtly political works) to make a specific comment on society. In cases like this, it’s much more likely to start out with an image of a younger naive girl looking adoringly at an older girl wreathed in smoke, and then when thinking about it some more, the author “discovering” that the older girl sometimes orders black coffee to look cool but thinks it’s too bitter, and so on.

Obviously, I’m not saying that this explicitly happened here, just that artists tend to start with pieces of material that seem promising, not with messages they want convey.

This story definitely touched upon a number of themes, but I feel like it is better read as an exploration of these characters, the situations they had to face and the motives behind their actions, rather than a story built around a message that the author wanted to send across.

In my experience, writers and artists very rarely start out to teach a moral or (except for overtly political works) to make a specific comment on society. In cases like this, it’s much more likely to start out with an image of a younger naive girl looking adoringly at an older girl wreathed in smoke, and then when thinking about it some more, the author “discovering” that the older girl sometimes orders black coffee to look cool but thinks it’s too bitter, and so on.

Obviously, I’m not saying that this explicitly happened here, just that artists tend to start with pieces of material that seem promising, not with messages they want convey.

I don't really know what artists usually do. I've definitely come across works that felt as though they were written with a specific idea in mind, though I, too, would agree that most of the time artists are probably just looking for interesting material.
My pointing it out here was because I felt that the person I was answering to was too focused on a very specific theme of the story, while overlooking other parts.

My pointing it out here was because I felt that the person I was answering to was too focused on a very specific theme of the story, while overlooking other parts.

It's the theme that appealed to me the most. I agree (and really like) that this a character-driven story and is more about following the working-out of the characters' own stories rather than (to reuse a word I used before) a schematic plot that ticks off archetypal story beats. I think that makes for a more sophisticated and nuanced story. And I take your point about Nacchan having more going on than just dealing with compulsory heterosexuality, although I think her insecurity and inability to see herself on an equal footing with Kyouko is itself in part a consequence of the way that being with another woman is at the very least not encouraged by Japanese society.

It feels like the sort of thing I'd expect from a het writing about queer love and seeing it as a chance to just throw in lots of angst but not actually confirm anything queer in the ending

I think this reading of the story erases Nacchan's bisexuality – her husband wouldn't care about the flowers if he didn't suspect (seemingly correctly) that Nacchan still loves Kyouko on some level. Nobody in the story acts if they treat Nacchan's love for Kyouko as being a different kind of feeling than her love for her husband – and if she doesn't feel as strongly about her husband as Kyouko, she at the very least seems to feel genuine affection for him.

I (although it also makes it less yuri, in the sense that "yuri" as a marketing category is largely about depicting a homosocial as well as homosexual world with the messy interface between genders largely airbrushed out, idealized and streamlined for the consumption of a straight, male audience).

Have you ever been kicked in the shins before?

I (although it also makes it less yuri, in the sense that "yuri" as a marketing category is largely about depicting a homosocial as well as homosexual world with the messy interface between genders largely airbrushed out, idealized and streamlined for the consumption of a straight, male audience).

Have you ever been kicked in the shins before?

So mean!

But, to expand, I think your description of yuri is quite accurate apart from the demographic which seems a few decades old. From some admittedly outdated reader surveys of Yuri Hime and major GL hubs, yuri readership is split evenly nowadays between straight male and lesbian readers, so I'd say the airbrushing and streamlining is a factor of romance genres, publishing expectations, and the quality of manga storytelling in general rather than pandering to a male audience. Josei and shoujo romance are equally streamlined in their own spheres, although it's worth mentioning each individual publication will probably skew toward one audience or another

And Battan fucking kills it. Probably more josei than yuri in the end, but she doesn't appear to be trying to publish in the genre

last edited at Nov 11, 2021 5:50PM

I'm talking mostly about marketing and editing here, and yeah, things have opened up a lot in the last 10 years. Editors and marketers want stuff they can sell to the largest possible audience, so they care more about the straight male audience (although my hope would be that that emphasis would shift as the lesbian and female audience grows – I'm a little skeptical, though, based on my understanding of the Japanese publishing world, which is pretty conservative). My favorite yuri mangakas, people like Akiko Morishima and Shuninta Amano, are queer creators who are really good at putting together works that appeal to both of these audiences. (As a side note, I don't think it's really a coincidence that Morishima's and Amano's most aggressively queer works, like Hanjuku Joshi and The Feelings We All Must Endure, have not gotten officially localized into English.)

And yeah, Battan seems to write for an older audience, and also doesn't seem to be overly worried about fitting into specific categories. I don't even know where her stuff gets serialized, but what I have seen is all over the place. That's one of the things I really like about her – she writes complicated, character-driven stories, lesbian themes are central to her work, and she doesn't get too tropey – just look at the forum threads for this story and Run Away With Me, Girl, where people consistently expected / feared that she would go one way and she took the story somewhere entirely different.

Yasako posted:

I (although it also makes it less yuri, in the sense that "yuri" as a marketing category is largely about depicting a homosocial as well as homosexual world with the messy interface between genders largely airbrushed out, idealized and streamlined for the consumption of a straight, male audience).

Have you ever been kicked in the shins before?

Don't speak to people like that in the future. Thanks.

OK, yeah, the marketing thing makes sense when it comes to that take.
It's just been frustrating over the years seeing the Western hemisphere constantly and consistently treat yuri like a more depraved version of the BL (colloquially known as yaoi to outsiders) fandom.

I would never belittle my fujoshi friends by accusing them of being less depraved than yuri fandom.