Damn Nakano is such a pussy magnet

it's damn effective

The "fiction doesn't affect reality" "debate" has been so poisoned by jack thompson satanic panic crap from the 80's and 90's. we know quite obviously fiction doesn't make you literally recreate whatever happens therein, but that doesn't mean there's 0 impact. If there was why the heck would anyone do literary analysis on anything (or for that matter write/make anything)?

The fiction people make is informed by their real experiences, biases, tastes, beliefs, etc. in which they present in some form, and the reader attempts to matches their own, to relate. Whether that's merely finding a subject entertaining, which is informed by those kinds of things, or aligning with those biases, tastes, beliefs etc. explicitly, it's still reflective of what is acceptable/agreeable etc., particularly if its meant to titillate or agitate (such as propaganda). When you sexualize minors in fiction (which hasn't happened in this manga, yet), or romanticize relationships between minors and adults, it is imparting a judgement, it is indulging if such judgement is "it's taboo". Just start asking why. Why does the author make it? (real world consequences?) Why do people read it? Why does it entertain? Why would someone want to read a chapter titled, "enjoying the scent of high school girls", a sentence that if said in public might have police sent your way by most people? Indulging in a "taboo" is disagreeing with how that thing is perceived by people and that can be as much as "just portraying it". I get it, high school is nostalgic for memories and first romances, immaturity can be funny, fucked up shit happens to kids, there's plenty of reasons to write about those kinds of things in regards to kids. They appeal to frustrated/sad/busy adults, and maybe can make things better for future kids, show how bad things are, or whatever purpose you ascribe. As soon as that delves into sexual stuff, those aims or designs are betrayed. An autobiography doesn't need to go into explicit narrative detail about teen sex, you'd be concerned for that person's health / be grossed out.

This story is pretty clearly dealing with late bloom sexual awakening of its protag via explicit sexual cues and how that affects your potential first relationships. For a minor to be introduced as a parallel, does not bode well. However, it seems she is more ingratiated because of Nakano's charm and the flirty atmosphere, which is a much safer route (i forget if she ever heard any of the main people or if she just had the complaint brought). It could be a "look what nakano missed out on coming to terms with her sexuality by not ever being around gay people at that age, how would she have been emotionally/personality wise?" deal. That tract can reasonably be entertained with no need to be sexual, depending on the person that can play such a small role in the way their attraction works, so why not play safe? why go there and invade, encroach on indulgence? If it's really such a hard idea to get, ask yourself if you'd want your own sexual awakening portrayed in a fictionalized film in explicit detail, done so by pure coincidence. It'd be embarrassing, disturbing, and extremely uncomfortable, even though it's a fictional character, to you and the audience. It's a topic better suited for subtlety. When this stuff happens in western media, like Big Mouth or Sex Education, it definitely gets more obvious when the actors, whose job it is to convince you they are a teenager or are actually teenagers down to every detail, play these things out. What is getting encouraged, what is being particularly enjoyed? Who is making it, who is it for?

Every little bit contributes to the very real and prevalent problem of pedophilia, and a lot of manga plays a role in enabling it.

I'll defer to this response if ever the issue comes up elsewhere. I'm tired of responding to the same bad faith, ignorant arguments.

last edited at Mar 5, 2021 9:34PM

writes relatively thought-out response
deletes it
Naaaaah, not worth it. Others will take care of it and I should avoid arguments on the internet anyway.

The "fiction doesn't affect reality" "debate" has been so poisoned by jack thompson satanic panic crap from the 80's and 90's. we know quite obviously fiction doesn't make you literally recreate whatever happens therein, but that doesn't mean there's 0 impact. If there was why the heck would anyone do literary analysis on anything (or for that matter write/make anything)?

The fiction people make is informed by their real experiences, biases, tastes, beliefs, etc. in which they present in some form, and the reader attempts to matches their own, to relate. Whether that's merely finding a subject entertaining, which is informed by those kinds of things, or aligning with those biases, tastes, beliefs etc. explicitly, it's still reflective of what is acceptable/agreeable etc., particularly if its meant to titillate or agitate (such as propaganda). When you sexualize minors in fiction (which hasn't happened in this manga, yet), or romanticize relationships between minors and adults, it is imparting a judgement, it is indulging if such judgement is "it's taboo". Just start asking why. Why does the author make it? (real world consequences?) Why do people read it? Why does it entertain? Why would someone want to read a chapter titled, "enjoying the scent of high school girls", a sentence that if said in public might have police sent your way by most people? Indulging in a "taboo" is disagreeing with how that thing is perceived by people and that can be as much as "just portraying it". I get it, high school is nostalgic for memories and first romances, immaturity can be funny, fucked up shit happens to kids, there's plenty of reasons to write about those kinds of things in regards to kids. They appeal to frustrated/sad/busy adults, and maybe can make things better for future kids, show how bad things are, or whatever purpose you ascribe. As soon as that delves into sexual stuff, those aims or designs are betrayed. An autobiography doesn't need to go into explicit narrative detail about teen sex, you'd be concerned for that person's health / be grossed out.

This story is pretty clearly dealing with late bloom sexual awakening of its protag via explicit sexual cues and how that affects your potential first relationships. For a minor to be introduced as a parallel, does not bode well. However, it seems she is more ingratiated because of Nakano's charm and the flirty atmosphere, which is a much safer route (i forget if she ever heard any of the main people or if she just had the complaint brought). It could be a "look what nakano missed out on coming to terms with her sexuality by not ever being around gay people at that age, how would she have been emotionally/personality wise?" deal. That tract can reasonably be entertained with no need to be sexual, depending on the person that can play such a small role in the way their attraction works, so why not play safe? why go there and invade, encroach on indulgence? If it's really such a hard idea to get, ask yourself if you'd want your own sexual awakening portrayed in a fictionalized film in explicit detail, done so by pure coincidence. It'd be embarrassing, disturbing, and extremely uncomfortable, even though it's a fictional character, to you and the audience. It's a topic better suited for subtlety. When this stuff happens in western media, like Big Mouth or Sex Education, it definitely gets more obvious when the actors, whose job it is to convince you they are a teenager or are actually teenagers down to every detail, play these things out. What is getting encouraged, what is being particularly enjoyed? Who is making it, who is it for?

Every little bit contributes to the very real and prevalent problem of pedophilia, and a lot of manga plays a role in enabling it.

I'll defer to this response if ever the issue comes up elsewhere. I'm tired of responding to the same bad faith, ignorant arguments.

Well maybe don't respond to me, and instead go solve real world problems that impact actual children, instead of taking manga with stylized art as a "serious problem". Yes you're tired of responding to people like me, but I'm also tired of responding to people like you, funny how that works.

Also don't forget all the real world violence that fictional media also enables. All the step-sibling incest the porn enables. All the...so on and so fourth. It's always the same old argument. Thousands of real world pedophiles that know nothing about manga get away with sexual abuse on a daily basis, but surely manga like this is a problem. It's impossible to ever take arguments like yours seriously, just as you don't take mine seriously.

last edited at Mar 5, 2021 10:17PM

exactly bad faith as i said. i did not say this manga was guilty of it yet, and I didn't go excusing other media, in fact i actually included two different kinds that also contribute, i didn't say anything about violence not contributing, i think it does (look at decades of propagandist cop serials and how people worship cops and wanted to kill/wished death on protestors last summer, there's so much bloodthirst out there and unquestioning loyalty to the military) . I know porn contributes to rape and incest and sex trafficking. Yeah the old boomers in congress and pals of Epstein know nothing about manga/anime, that doesn't discount the large majority that do, or else know of american/western media that treads the same water, be it books, films, TV shows, etc. (I responded to that bc thats a new one).

its just so goddamn obvious that fiction is not a vacuum. Hell, you read the harry potter books and suddenly rowlings terfism is the logical conclusion of the values espoused in the book, that you can never escape your station of birth.

exactly bad faith as i said. i did not say this manga was guilty of it yet, and I didn't go excusing other media, in fact i actually included two different kinds that also contribute, i didn't say anything about violence not contributing, i think it does (look at decades of propagandist cop serials and how people worship cops and wanted to kill/wished death on protestors last summer, there's so much bloodthirst out there and unquestioning loyalty to the military) . I know porn contributes to rape and incest and sex trafficking. Yeah the old boomers in congress and pals of Epstein know nothing about manga/anime, that doesn't discount the large majority that do, or else know of american/western media that treads the same water, be it books, films, TV shows, etc. (I responded to that bc thats a new one).

its just so goddamn obvious that fiction is not a vacuum. Hell, you read the harry potter books and suddenly rowlings terfism is the logical conclusion of the values espoused in the book, that you can never escape your station of birth.

JK Rowling is not an example of every author. I'm just going to leave this here and call it a day. I know a conversation between you and me will go nowhere, so have a good day/night. I wish you the best.

last edited at Mar 5, 2021 10:44PM

I know porn contributes to rape and incest and sex trafficking.

No, you believe that. I really doubt you have good evidence to justify 'know'. Increased porn availability correlates with declining rape rates.

Harem
Age Gap
Lets Fuckin GOOOOOOO

The natural lady killer.

She has Harem Protagonist (Gay) EX as a natural skill.

last edited at Mar 6, 2021 3:28AM

JK Rowling is not an example of every author. I'm just going to leave this here and call it a day. I know a conversation between you and me will go nowhere, so have a good day/night. I wish you the best.

You, my friend, are straw manning. Op gave Rowling as an example, not an archetype. Also, yes, writers can write bad characters with flaws they don't have, but when those flaws are shown in a positive light, they can be used as an outlet for flawed people, and a reason to not work on themselves. (Now, I've never seen Sunny in Philadelphia, I am just going to use misogyny as a stand in for pedophilia, as a metaphor.) When misogynists watch misogynistic characters shown in a positive, or even neutral light, they can think that society will except then, and continue being misogynistic. When a young adult with little life experience, heavily influenced by they're media outlets, watches these misogynistic characters shown in said light, they also believe it is accepted by society, and maybe adopt some of those misogynistic values as their own. The same can be said about pedophilia. Maybe not everyone who reads a story of a middle school girl falling in love with an adult women will become a pedophile, but pedophiles can surely access this and think that their disorder is okay and accepted by society.

I'm honestly not really sure what your argument is, as your rebutles have been either strawmen or mysdirects, but you seem to be coming from a week background in debate. Also, never start a counter argument with "Don't reply to me," because you can't refute someone argument and expect then to quietly accept it. If you didn't want a back and forth to start, don't reply in the first place. Now, I'm not saying I agree with everything op has said, but some of it is undoubtedly hard to deny. And it seems you agree, as evidenced by your counters.

Also, this entire argument seems off topic, as no pedohpilic actions nor positive displays have aken place. While positive displays of pedohpilia in media is harmful, and Japan's masked acceptance of this is a problem, that has not been shown and seems unlikely. So feel free to reply, but know that this conversation is off topic.

last edited at Mar 6, 2021 6:47AM

oh no oh no oh no author, im begging you, please dont make horny jokes with the middle schooler. Please do not

Considering her idea of conflict resolution is hide-and-seek, I’m going to guess Hikaru is going to be used for jokes about childhood crushes and general innocence (especially is regards to the horny antics of just about every other character here). I doubt she was introduced just for the author to make the exact same types of jokes every other character has already been making.

i'm sure this will be the case, my heart has just been broken too many times before

also yall are writing a lot of words and i'm not reading any of them. i'm just gonna say "concept of a university student having a physical relationship with a middle schooler is super yikes and would turn me off of the series" and move on

I know porn contributes to rape and incest and sex trafficking.

No, you believe that. I really doubt you have good evidence to justify 'know'. Increased porn availability correlates with declining rape rates.

You are strawmaning~~. Yes, this claim is false, but pornographic websites have created a great cover for these things. Also, this claims wasn't the main subject of the comment, and your hesitancy to address that shows a lack of any quality counter point.

also yall are writing a lot of words and i'm not reading any of them. i'm just gonna say "concept of a university student having a physical relationship with a middle schooler is super yikes and would turn me off of the series" and move on

I agree whole heartedly, the only reason I replied is because the only two counter arguments I saw were strawman, and that is one of my greatest pet peeves. My own opinion lies somewhere in between, but the subject of my two other comments was solely a critique of the debate practices used, not about the actual topic being discussed. I know that's off topic, but so is the entire conversation.

does that "non-chan" B-word have ANY redeeming qualities?! because she's seriously annoying!

Another one to the list huehue

Evitron posted:

oh no oh no oh no author, im begging you, please dont make horny jokes with the middle schooler. Please do not

You do realize the author is from Japan and is writing for a Japanese audience, right? If actual lolicon and shotacon has yet to be banned, what makes you think horny jokes with middle schooler characters are taboo?

SillieHonka posted:

The "fiction doesn't affect reality" "debate" has been so poisoned by jack thompson satanic panic crap from the 80's and 90's. we know quite obviously fiction doesn't make you literally recreate whatever happens therein, but that doesn't mean there's 0 impact. If there was why the heck would anyone do literary analysis on anything (or for that matter write/make anything)?

The fiction people make is informed by their real experiences, biases, tastes, beliefs, etc. in which they present in some form, and the reader attempts to matches their own, to relate. Whether that's merely finding a subject entertaining, which is informed by those kinds of things, or aligning with those biases, tastes, beliefs etc. explicitly, it's still reflective of what is acceptable/agreeable etc., particularly if its meant to titillate or agitate (such as propaganda). When you sexualize minors in fiction (which hasn't happened in this manga, yet), or romanticize relationships between minors and adults, it is imparting a judgement, it is indulging if such judgement is "it's taboo". Just start asking why. Why does the author make it? (real world consequences?) Why do people read it? Why does it entertain? Why would someone want to read a chapter titled, "enjoying the scent of high school girls", a sentence that if said in public might have police sent your way by most people? Indulging in a "taboo" is disagreeing with how that thing is perceived by people and that can be as much as "just portraying it". I get it, high school is nostalgic for memories and first romances, immaturity can be funny, fucked up shit happens to kids, there's plenty of reasons to write about those kinds of things in regards to kids. They appeal to frustrated/sad/busy adults, and maybe can make things better for future kids, show how bad things are, or whatever purpose you ascribe. As soon as that delves into sexual stuff, those aims or designs are betrayed. An autobiography doesn't need to go into explicit narrative detail about teen sex, you'd be concerned for that person's health / be grossed out.

This story is pretty clearly dealing with late bloom sexual awakening of its protag via explicit sexual cues and how that affects your potential first relationships. For a minor to be introduced as a parallel, does not bode well. However, it seems she is more ingratiated because of Nakano's charm and the flirty atmosphere, which is a much safer route (i forget if she ever heard any of the main people or if she just had the complaint brought). It could be a "look what nakano missed out on coming to terms with her sexuality by not ever being around gay people at that age, how would she have been emotionally/personality wise?" deal. That tract can reasonably be entertained with no need to be sexual, depending on the person that can play such a small role in the way their attraction works, so why not play safe? why go there and invade, encroach on indulgence? If it's really such a hard idea to get, ask yourself if you'd want your own sexual awakening portrayed in a fictionalized film in explicit detail, done so by pure coincidence. It'd be embarrassing, disturbing, and extremely uncomfortable, even though it's a fictional character, to you and the audience. It's a topic better suited for subtlety. When this stuff happens in western media, like Big Mouth or Sex Education, it definitely gets more obvious when the actors, whose job it is to convince you they are a teenager or are actually teenagers down to every detail, play these things out. What is getting encouraged, what is being particularly enjoyed? Who is making it, who is it for?

Every little bit contributes to the very real and prevalent problem of pedophilia, and a lot of manga plays a role in enabling it.

I'll defer to this response if ever the issue comes up elsewhere. I'm tired of responding to the same bad faith, ignorant arguments.

Your entire argument is undermined by two major flaws:

1. It assumes that every story has to reflect the author's real experiences, biases, tastes, beliefs, etc. That's utter bullshit. By that logic, I should be a scat-loving pedophile because I've written draft notes for stories involving copious amounts of scat and adult-minor sexual relations, yet I have absolutely zero interest in engaging in any of those acts nor do I espouse the desire for people to engage in them IRL. And even if you don't want to take me at your word, you haven't actually provided any proof of your far-fetched claim to begin with, or at least cited some sort of consensus/majority opinion among literary experts on the subject as a source.

2. You overlook that storywriters often write stories to explore fantastical worlds where things that could never happen in reality (whether because they're literally impossible as far as scientific understanding is concerned, or because of societal taboos being too strong, or because they come with too much negative issues/consequences for anyone to attempt) can and do happen. In the case of stories with themes of underage sexuality, that would be exploring if underage sexuality can happen without any of the psychological/physical trauma and other issues that come hand in hand with it IRL.

Your entire argument is undermined by two major flaws:

1. It assumes that every story has to reflect the author's real experiences, biases, tastes, beliefs, etc. That's utter bullshit. By that logic, I should be a scat-loving pedophile because I've written draft notes for stories involving copious amounts of scat and adult-minor sexual relations, yet I have absolutely zero interest in engaging in any of those acts nor do I espouse the desire for people to engage in them IRL. And even if you don't want to take me at your word, you haven't actually provided any proof of your far-fetched claim to begin with, or at least cited some sort of consensus/majority opinion among literary experts on the subject as a source.

2. You overlook that storywriters often write stories to explore fantastical worlds where things that could never happen in reality (whether because they're literally impossible as far as scientific understanding is concerned, or because of societal taboos being too strong, or because they come with too much negative issues/consequences for anyone to attempt) can and do happen. In the case of stories with themes of underage sexuality, that would be exploring if underage sexuality can happen without any of the psychological/physical trauma and other issues that come hand in hand with it IRL.

Your argument is very weak. For one, you use yourself as a supporting example, something nobody could verify unless they knew you personally. For all I know, you are a scat loving pedophile, and the fact that you admit to writing stories containing those themes seems to support that. I said this in another reply, but authors can write characters with flaws they don't have, thats fine. The problem is when those flaws are depicted as positive attributes. Also, I dont think op was ignoring the fact that people write stories with taboo themes to explore them while avoiding consequences, I think they acknowledge that and are saying it isn't good. A healthy individual and healthy society should not want nor except a story where pedophilia occurs in a way that highlights the sexuality (adjective not noun) of a child, with zero consequences. In addition, when this is distributed publicly, it can serve as an outlet. You don't need evidence to know that a middle schooler having sex with an adult women will be viewed by predatory eyes.

last edited at Mar 6, 2021 4:58PM

Maybe not everyone who reads a story of a middle school girl falling in love with an adult women will become a pedophile

Fiction does not turn people into pedophiles, any more than it turns them gay.

The great New York statue of Martin Scorsese is crying out once again, screaming "Crimes are cool, you should do crimes and hurt women." The horde driven mad by violent videogames and WASP and Prince albums descends on the city for the slaughter. If only Tipper Gore could have saved us from authors not explicitly condemning bad behaviors in fiction.

Moderator Note

We'll have no more of this topic in this thread. Tertiary / meta discussions are generally best not had within any specific manga thread, unless the poster(s) wish to draw clear connection to the material they're commenting on. If you wish to continue, head to the Cafe, or make a new thread. Thank you, take care.

Edit: Batzi, I removed your post. This is just bad timing, but I firmly mean no more posts.

last edited at Mar 6, 2021 7:40PM

No worries, you are right anyway. I started typing before your post was there :)
B2T:
Cute chapter but how are they supposed to resolve anything using hide'n'seek lmao. Let's see where the arc takes us

oh god. nakano's ever-expanding lesbian harem has drifted into illegal territory XD also, we should normalize handling disputes with hide and seek.. not sure how it can help solve a problem, seeing as it isn't a team-oriented game, but HECK I'm 22 and i wanna play hide and seek dammit!!

I'm glad we're moving on from all of that. Also I'm looking forward to the next chapter, and seeing if her neighbors can properly sort out some of their history. It'd be interesting if this somehow, against all odds, turned into a big poly relationship.

New girl is very cute, hope to see more of her~