I think the previous version of the translation made more sense...
Pg 00109 “Matsuri, are you saying that because you’re worried about me”

This line is NOT SPOKEN BY HARUMIN! It’s spoken from Matsuri to Harumin. Seriously the translators aren’t new are they? They should have understood the speech patterns of each of the characters and gotten them down pat by now... Harumin refers to herself as ‘Atashi (あたし)’ Matsuri refers to herself as ‘Watashi (私)’ The line here in Japanese is ‘それは私を心配しての言葉なのか’ this is a Matsuri line. This bubble the next bubble and the following conjoined bubbles are spoken as as one line.

“Are you saying that because you’re worried about me?
or is this another one of your selfish ‘defensive instincts’?
By concerning yourself with the matters of everyone around you
Are you that desperate to be loved?”

Pg 00101 “I understand that Yuzu Chan is so worried to the point that she might come busting through my door at any moment”

Last page: “Is you choosing not to tell anyone your principle as a ‘Stealth Gyaru’?”

To be honest there’s a few more minor ones in between, especially the bridge scene which I mentioned earlier cuz everyone who’s translating it translates it as though Harumin is reprimanding Matsuri “go on loving ‘that part of yourself’” when it’s actually Harumin telling Matsuri that she needs to learn to love that part of herself that she’s hiding away so desperately to make sure no one sees through her facade.

last edited at Nov 21, 2020 5:06AM

—she’s just not a source of significant narrative energy anymore. She’s passive, insecure, lacks communication skills that she used to have, and is no longer the driver of significant plot or character developments.

Also Mei in Citrus+: Stands up to the academy board declaring herself the first chairwoman,

Something she said she was going to do roughly 50 chapters earlier.

works with Yuzu to help Sayaka,

Yuzu talks Mei into letting her handle it, even though technically it’s her job as president

convinces Harumin to go after Matsuri.

Even though it’s technically her job.

“Mei displays effective administrative ability by delegating authority” isn’t quite the sort of thing I had in mind by the term ”narrative energy.”

last edited at Nov 21, 2020 5:31AM

bruh why still reading the series if u hate the plot and main character lol xD

anyways, I also think that the defensive instinct dialogue was spoken by Matsuri for it reflects with their convo on volume 3 extra

“Mei displays effective administrative ability by delegating authority” isn’t quite the sort of thing I had in mind by the term "narrative energy."

Mei from earlier volumes would've likely tried to handle the situation herself be exerting her authority and trying to put Sayaka and Matsuri back in line. But Mei "delegating authority" to people she knows could handle the situation better, especially in Matsuri's case since she acknowledges that even Yuzu wouldn't have worked, shows that she's becoming more emotionally sensitive and knows when the time is right to be the strict authority figure. This was the case for Sayaka, who Mei only punished after Yuzu helped her come out.

TL;DR, Mei is showing emotions and is taking action when necessary, but at the same time is still developing as a character. Try as I might, I just can't see her with the criticisms you have no matter how many angles I look from.

bruh why still reading the series if u hate the plot and main character lol xD

“Bruh,” why don’t you learn to read English?

I never said I “hate the plot,” and Mei hasn’t remotely been “the main character” for quite some time, as indicated by the fact that the original series went through its final arc with Mei almost entirely offscreen.

I did say that I once thought that Mei was the most interesting and vivid character in the story, and I don’t think that anymore.

bruh.

TL;DR, Mei is showing emotions and is taking action when necessary, but at the same time is still developing as a character. Try as I might, I just can't see her with the criticisms you have no matter how many angles I look from.

Look, I get it. A story that goes from “A couple of hotties can’t keep their hands off each other” and then morphs into “A couple of Good Girls blush and stutter when looking at each other from across the room” apparently meets the requirements of many readers.

I personally don’t see it as the optimal development of the series’ potential narrative energy, but to each their own.

I think the previous version of the translation made more sense...
Pg 00109 “Matsuri, are you saying that because you’re worried about me”

This line is NOT SPOKEN BY HARUMIN! It’s spoken from Matsuri to Harumin. Seriously the translators aren’t new are they? They should have understood the speech patterns of each of the characters and gotten them down pat by now... Harumin refers to herself as ‘Atashi (あたし)’ Matsuri refers to herself as ‘Watashi (私)’ The line here in Japanese is ‘それは私を心配しての言葉なのか’ this is a Matsuri line. This bubble the next bubble and the following conjoined bubbles are spoken as as one line.

“Are you saying that because you’re worried about me?
or is this another one of your selfish ‘defensive instincts’?
By concerning yourself with the matters of everyone around you
Are you that desperate to be loved?”

Pg 00101 “I understand that Yuzu Chan is so worried to the point that she might come busting through my door at any moment”

Last page: “Is you choosing not to tell anyone your principle as a ‘Stealth Gyaru’?”

To be honest there’s a few more minor ones in between, especially the bridge scene which I mentioned earlier cuz everyone who’s translating it translates it as though Harumin is reprimanding Matsuri “go on loving ‘that part of yourself’” when it’s actually Harumin telling Matsuri that she needs to learn to love that part of herself that she’s hiding away so desperately to make sure no one sees through her facade.

Thanks your translation makes the scene make a lot more sense to me now. Even not knowing Japanese, that line “Matsuri, are you saying that because you’re worried about me” REALLY threw me off because it totally didn't make sense with the flow of dialogue. The motives behind their actions is a lot clearer now.

I think the previous version of the translation made more sense...
Pg 00109 “Matsuri, are you saying that because you’re worried about me”

This line is NOT SPOKEN BY HARUMIN! It’s spoken from Matsuri to Harumin. Seriously the translators aren’t new are they? They should have understood the speech patterns of each of the characters and gotten them down pat by now... Harumin refers to herself as ‘Atashi (あたし)’ Matsuri refers to herself as ‘Watashi (私)’ The line here in Japanese is ‘それは私を心配しての言葉なのか’ this is a Matsuri line. This bubble the next bubble and the following conjoined bubbles are spoken as as one line.

To be honest there’s a few more minor ones in between, especially the bridge scene which I mentioned earlier cuz everyone who’s translating it translates it as though Harumin is reprimanding Matsuri “go on loving ‘that part of yourself’” when it’s actually Harumin telling Matsuri that she needs to learn to love that part of herself that she’s hiding away so desperately to make sure no one sees through her facade.

THANK YOU ! I love reading your comments about HaruMatsu and your translation seems so on point.
I was really confused with the new version of this chapter because yeah it doesn't make any sense that Harumi is the one asking ''Are you saying that because you’re worried about me?'' and the conversation seemed really...disconnected ?
Thanks to you, this dialogue makes more sense.
Tbf this chapter seemed really hard to translate so I don't blame Chaosteam and I'm really grateful for their work.

I think the previous version of the translation made more sense...
Pg 00109 “Matsuri, are you saying that because you’re worried about me”

This line is NOT SPOKEN BY HARUMIN! It’s spoken from Matsuri to Harumin. Seriously the translators aren’t new are they? They should have understood the speech patterns of each of the characters and gotten them down pat by now... Harumin refers to herself as ‘Atashi (あたし)’ Matsuri refers to herself as ‘Watashi (私)’ The line here in Japanese is ‘それは私を心配しての言葉なのか’ this is a Matsuri line. This bubble the next bubble and the following conjoined bubbles are spoken as as one line.

“Are you saying that because you’re worried about me?
or is this another one of your selfish ‘defensive instincts’?
By concerning yourself with the matters of everyone around you
Are you that desperate to be loved?”

Pg 00101 “I understand that Yuzu Chan is so worried to the point that she might come busting through my door at any moment”

Last page: “Is you choosing not to tell anyone your principle as a ‘Stealth Gyaru’?”

To be honest there’s a few more minor ones in between, especially the bridge scene which I mentioned earlier cuz everyone who’s translating it translates it as though Harumin is reprimanding Matsuri “go on loving ‘that part of yourself’” when it’s actually Harumin telling Matsuri that she needs to learn to love that part of herself that she’s hiding away so desperately to make sure no one sees through her facade.

Hi, I'm the translator here. I'm aware that it was Matsuri that said that to Harumin. In the first translation, I was hoping people would understand that it was Matsuri saying it to Harumin. However, I had to reword things to make it so it made sense as we busted it out so quickly that I didn't exactly have time to go over everything and finalize it. It was a mistake I made since I hadn't read Citrus in Japanese for a long time now so forgot that Harumin never refers to herself as "watashi". I understand the speech patterns, I immediately began rereading the first 2 volumes of Citrus+ in Japanese because of my mistake so I'm very adapted to them now. As soon as it was posted, I realized my mistake during the second process of the translation but by then it was too late and some people were just exhausted from the second rendition to fix it. Which is completely understandable so I didn't want to push it. I wanted to change the page and make it clear that Matsuri was saying this to Harumin, however I didn't want to pressure the typesetter to fix it since she's already done so much.

With page Pg 00101 I was having trouble wording that line so it didn't sound choppy which is why I cut out the "to the point" and changed up the translation a little. It was one of the lines I didn't like the wording of, but I was exhausted from my uni work and redoing the translation the second time, that I just kept it how it was.

With the "Go on loving "that version of yourself" as well" line, my typesetter preferred that wording however I did want to change so it fit the original translation which was Harumin telling Matsuri to learn to love that version of herself. So, I'm very aware that the translation does not quite fit to original.

As for the translation on the last page, the version I did is the correct translation. 選択 means to choose, a decision, selection, etc.. She's posing the question that if Harumin has chosen not to tell anyone, then doesn't it make her a stealth gyaru by that decision. This is proven by the しちゃう which is to complete something or do something without meaning etc.. (depending on the context it can mean quite a few things).

As a translator, sometimes you have to word things in such a way that's going to make sense in english. Although someone who speaks Japanese would think the previous translation made more sense, people who don't might be finding it difficult to follow the more literate translations, which is why I had to find a way to make this chapter make more sense. The first translation was more rough and my translations are usually not like that when I'm done with them. I was trying to make the conversations flow better in the second one. People were complaining about the first and I have heard many people say they found this version much clearer (aside from the mistakes that I would change if I could).

Our team has learned our lesson. We just got super hyped to get the chapter out to the point that quality kind of went out the window. Next time, we're going to have a different process and I'm familiarizing myself with the characters speech patterns again so this doesn't happen again. I was stressed out from my uni work, exhausted from no sleep and other things in my life as well as trying to pump the chapter out that I ended up doing a crappy job. It won't happen again and I'll make sure of it.

Sorry guys about all this. I might ask if we could possibly put a note up for the next chapter explaining the mistakes, but we're all kind of just over this chapter at this point so no guarantees ):

last edited at Nov 21, 2020 11:38AM

Sorry guys about all this. I might ask if we could possible put a note up for the next chapter explaining the mistakes, but we're all kind of just over this chapter at this point so guarantees ):

From my POV: no worries. Just thanks for all your work, and an extra thanks for making the effort to clarify things.

Sorry guys about all this. I might ask if we could possible put a note up for the next chapter explaining the mistakes, but we're all kind of just over this chapter at this point so guarantees ):

From my POV: no worries. Just thanks for all your work, and an extra thanks for making the effort to clarify things.

All good, thank you for your POV (:
I added some more clarification about what Matsuri said on the last page to my message if you want to check that out ^^

last edited at Nov 21, 2020 10:44AM

I can read the raws as well, Matsuri always speaks formally (Keigo), so the drop of honorifics on previous chaps bothered me, that's why I'm actually glad you guys kept the formalities (senpai) this time. Some context particularly on the bridge scene is indeed confusing, so I also don't blame the translators for those minor mistakes. And even if you guys fix it again, some people will still complain lmaoo xD
Thank you so much CT, I really appreciate your dedication, hardwork and great credits~<3

I can read the raws as well, Matsuri always speaks formally (Keigo), so the drop of honorifics on previous chaps bothered me, that's why I'm actually glad you guys kept the formalities (senpai) this time. Some context particularly on the bridge scene is indeed confusing, so I also don't blame the translators for those minor mistakes. And even if you guys fix it again, some people will still complain lmaoo xD
Thank you so much CT, I really appreciate your dedication, hardwork and great credits~<3

Yes, I've heard many people who speak and read Japanese found the context on the bridge scene quite confusing. I'm glad I'm not the only one. I feel this is a fault of Sabu, I love her but it was confusing!
Thank you very much for your kind words <3

Sorry guys about all this. I might ask if we could possible put a note up for the next chapter explaining the mistakes, but we're all kind of just over this chapter at this point so no guarantees ):

I understand your struggles, Japanese is a difficult language, it is even more difficult for someone who’s not lived in Japan.

Just to note, I’m not native Japanese, it’s just that what I studied in Japan, and my major happens to fall in line with reading and understanding the character.
S of a story. To put in frankly, I was in Seiyuu school, vocation major in voice acting. My understanding of the language and character study had to go beyond and above that of the normal consensus. And it’s carried over to whenever I read Manga...

I read out the characters in my head and I imagine them actually speaking when I see words. And I tend to forget that not everyone has my experience in character study... and exposure to the language

I apologise for being so harsh.

Sorry guys about all this. I might ask if we could possible put a note up for the next chapter explaining the mistakes, but we're all kind of just over this chapter at this point so guarantees ):

From my POV: no worries. Just thanks for all your work, and an extra thanks for making the effort to clarify things.

& From my POV: there's nothing to worry about, we all make mistakes some times. and thanks for all your hard work & dedication.

Sorry guys about all this. I might ask if we could possible put a note up for the next chapter explaining the mistakes, but we're all kind of just over this chapter at this point so no guarantees ):

I understand your struggles, Japanese is a difficult language, it is even more difficult for someone who’s not lived in Japan.

Just to note, I’m not native Japanese, it’s just that what I studied in Japan, and my major happens to fall in line with reading and understanding the character.
S of a story. To put in frankly, I was in Seiyuu school, vocation major in voice acting. My understanding of the language and character study had to go beyond and above that of the normal consensus. And it’s carried over to whenever I read Manga...

I read out the characters in my head and I imagine them actually speaking when I see words. And I tend to forget that not everyone has my experience in character study... and exposure to the language

I apologise for being so harsh.

Hey it's okay, no heart feelings at all. I totally understand where you're coming from and I think it's pretty impressive to have a vocation major in voicing acting for Japanese under your belt. I can only dream of that. Because I don't live in Japan and have never even visited (I would but I'm quite poor, only just turning 20, in university and a bunch of other reasons) I make up for it with what I can by surrounding myself with Japanese media, conversations and just completely inversing myself in the language so that when I do eventually go to Japan there will be a sense of familiarity in some way or another.

Thank you for your kind and thoughtful response <3

Welp... there it is... I sure hope this is only a kiss and not a beginning to something.

page 109 is replaced or it would eternally haunt me

Look, I get it. A story that goes from “A couple of hotties can’t keep their hands off each other” and then morphs into “A couple of Good Girls blush and stutter when looking at each other from across the room” apparently meets the requirements of many readers.

Except that it didn't. Citrus+ is not the same story, it may be in the same continuity, but it is quite deliberately a spin-off: a different story with a different tone, a different pace and different focus.

Look, I get it. A story that goes from “A couple of hotties can’t keep their hands off each other” and then morphs into “A couple of Good Girls blush and stutter when looking at each other from across the room” apparently meets the requirements of many readers.

Except that it didn't. Citrus+ is not the same story, it may be in the same continuity, but it is quite deliberately a spin-off: a different story with a different tone, a different pace and different focus.

Of course, this is just mincing words.

Your description is accurate (as far as it goes) and so is mine--they're the same characters in the two series, with the same past, and the same motivations, and the same development, existing in the same setting. The later series may be a spinoff with a different focus than the first, but these are not "different" characters--they're characters who have been continuous from Citrus, Chapter 1 to Citrus +, Volume 3.

Nothing in Citrus + suggests that anything in Citrus has been retconned, rendered non-canonical, or declared null and void.

Look, I get it. A story that goes from “A couple of hotties can’t keep their hands off each other” and then morphs into “A couple of Good Girls blush and stutter when looking at each other from across the room” apparently meets the requirements of many readers.

Except that it didn't. Citrus+ is not the same story, it may be in the same continuity, but it is quite deliberately a spin-off: a different story with a different tone, a different pace and different focus.

Of course, this is just mincing words.

Your description is accurate (as far as it goes) and so is mine--they're the same characters in the two series, with the same past, and the same motivations, and the same development, existing in the same setting. The later series may be a spinoff with a different focus than the first, but these are not "different" characters--they're characters who have been continuous from Citrus, Chapter 1 to Citrus +, Volume 3.

Nothing in Citrus + suggests that anything in Citrus has been retconned, rendered non-canonical, or declared null and void.

Just to be clear there are two domains here - storytelling tools, things like symbolism, structure, emphasis and manipulating tension for reader engagement (dramatic "pulse", 4 act narrative etc). Then there are storyworld elements such as characters and plots.

These of course all are author choices (and aren't entirely independent), but there is also authorial choice in how they are combined into the story, how storyworld elements filled into the dramatic tools and tools are used to bring the storyworld elements to the readers.

You can take the same dramatic form and plug in different worlds/characters/plots, and you can take the same words/characters and put them in different dramatic forms. Even with the same form and world you can still vary how the two sets relate focusing in different characters or plots even in the same style of story on the same events. The same characters can be used in very different ways in different stories, giving different perspectives on them, while still being very much the same.

If Citrus had been told from Mei's pov, there would have been more of an emphasis on Yuzu as a mysterious stubborn "driver".

In the original Citrus the rollercoaster of Yuzu and Mei's relationship was both the main long run plot focus and the main engine for episodic drama. As part of that dramatic engine, it was inevitable that Mei would be a "driver" in this context.

In Citrus+ the fact of their relationship is established. Although the growth their relationship is a recurring theme, it is most definitely not the dramatic pulse driving reader engagement scene by scene - it is a slow linear series arc (and cute couple-ey fanservice). Episodic drama is coming from side story plots involving supporting characters, Yuzu and Mei's "driving" will be mainly though their interaction with these characters.

Furthermore while Citrus was "Drama max" condensing the dramatic incidents and including many time skips, Citrus+ is slow slice of life with drama highlights. The entire run of the series to date (and how long Y&M have been back together) is from May 27-July 1, little over a month. I've had dirty dishes on my sink longer than that. Y&M are taking it slow for a reason; that urgent "sexy" edge in scenes from Citrus was grounded in insecurity and desperation - not a vibe either character would be eager to revisit.

I feel like that in insisting on the sameness between Citrus and Citrus+ you are missing the storytelling pluralism (in general your seeming insistence that there is only one right way to tell a story), and the potential for character evolution. With the switch to the new story, not only has Saburouta re-dealt the way she is using story elements in the storytelling, she has switched to an entirely different form.

Look, I get it. A story that goes from “A couple of hotties can’t keep their hands off each other” and then morphs into “A couple of Good Girls blush and stutter when looking at each other from across the room” apparently meets the requirements of many readers.

Except that it didn't. Citrus+ is not the same story, it may be in the same continuity, but it is quite deliberately a spin-off: a different story with a different tone, a different pace and different focus.

Of course, this is just mincing words.

Your description is accurate (as far as it goes) and so is mine--they're the same characters in the two series, with the same past, and the same motivations, and the same development, existing in the same setting. The later series may be a spinoff with a different focus than the first, but these are not "different" characters--they're characters who have been continuous from Citrus, Chapter 1 to Citrus +, Volume 3.

Nothing in Citrus + suggests that anything in Citrus has been retconned, rendered non-canonical, or declared null and void.

Double reply, since it occurred to me that I could perhaps have continued this thread in a much more succinct way:

Are you saying that your objections to Citrus+, rather than rather than problems with it as it is, actually boil down to the fact that it just isn't the spin-off direction that you wanted?

little over a month. I've had dirty dishes on my sink longer than that

eek

circamore, you do so much projecting and speculating about my motivations that there’s really no point in me trying to clarify each of your individual misapprehensions one by one. (Your juvenile canard that I think “there is only one right way to tell a story” most of all.)

I think I’m a pretty clear writer, and I’ve already said what I have to say here.

circamore, you do so much projecting and speculating about my motivations that there’s really no point in me trying to clarify each of your individual misapprehensions one by one. (Your juvenile canard that I think “there is only one right way to tell a story” most of all.)

I think I’m a pretty clear writer, and I’ve already said what I have to say here.

Don't worry, your opinion of your own writing and critical skills is abundantly clear.

Once again I regret trying to engage, but take comfort in not being the only one who finds your meaning obscure.

I admit that my first response was cumbersome, but I think by second one was pretty simple.

afaics you have conceded the issue is not one of character or plot consistency, but in the way the characters are being used in the storytelling mechanics, and in the focus and tone of the story that is being told.
But these are consequences of the sort of story Citrus+ is.

So that simple question stands - are you criticizing Citrus+ as the story it is, or for failing to be the different story you wish Saburouta had written instead?