Isn't she like 6 months from graduation? 17.5 isn't really 'child' even if we sometimes pretend it is for the sake of legal categories.

Is 18 years the age of "adulthood" for where they are at least? If i'm not mistaken, in Japan is 20, but i'm not sure if they're living in Japan or not...

Can you really consider a 18 y/o as a kid ?

Can you really consider a 18 y/o as a kid ?

Ever talked to one, as someone older than that? :v

Can you really consider a 18 y/o as a kid ?

Ever talked to one, as someone older than that? :v

All the time.

18-year-olds—the ones who in the US can vote, and kill and die in the military, may not be fully grown up, but they are not “children.”

Can you really consider a 18 y/o as a kid ?

Ever talked to one, as someone older than that? :v

All the time.

18-year-olds—the ones who in the US can vote, and kill and die in the military, may not be fully grown up, but they are not “children.”

They certainly try their best to convince you otherwise, mentally.

Can you really consider a 18 y/o as a kid ?

Ever talked to one, as someone older than that? :v

All the time.

18-year-olds—the ones who in the US can vote, and kill and die in the military, may not be fully grown up, but they are not “children.”

They certainly try their best to convince you otherwise, mentally.

Well, so do about 40% of people over 30, so that proves nothing.

Given that Risako just straight up admitted she lied about a bunch of stuff, I would not put much weight in what she says--but I'm not Kaoru. *rolls eyes*

This is an interesting difference between actual people in real life and characters as plot functions in fiction.

In real life, once someone is revealed to have been lying about something important like this, it’s rational to be distrustful of any such things they subsequently say.

But in this fiction, readers have known for a long time that Reiichi and Risako have been lying; we just haven’t known about exactly what until it was revealed in the latest chapters.

Once Kaoru confronts Reiichi (at long last), his demeanor doesn’t suggest that he is trying to minimize what he had done by claiming that there was no physical cheating. Similarly, Risako doesn’t appear to be trying to wriggle out of a tight spot—on the contrary, she seems to revel in revealing her previous manipulation of the situation, and so far from being distressed, she seems somewhat bemused by her own interest in Kaoru.

Basically, nothing would be accomplished for the story by the further revelation that the affair between Reiichi and Risako was physical rather than just emotional. Kaoru knows the truth about Reiichi’s feelings for her and about the shaky foundation of her marriage. What she does next is unlikely to be affected by finding out that Risako was a double liar rather than just a liar.

I don't feel Risaka felt she was in a "tight spot". Her behavior isn't surprising. I was never on the affair train, so don't care about a revelation on that point. I was curious about Risako's feelings generally and feelings toward Kaoru. Just because someone is low empathic (Alexithymic or something else) doesn't make them less human. They still have motives and intentions, however poorly they are able to express them or be understood by others.

What I was calling consistent is that we still only have a shallow view of Risako's motives; we only really know her through what she's said to Kaoru. And it seems less likely that'll change (now that my optimism has been squelched :D).

So what I wanted didn't happen, but this chapter was okay in terms of Kaoru continuing to move forward. I just felt she wasn't as strong here (communicating) as she had been in the previous two chapters.

Reiichi is not a unique character to me, so I don't really care much about his background and such being filled in... Nothing surprising in anyone's behavior to this point. If the story isn't distinct, I want the characters to be rich and interesting. Risako was the best bet for me, but ...oh well. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

The drawing is still decent.

P.S. People do respond similarly to how Kaoru has responded--in many situations she's faced--in real life. We have the luxury of being the observers to her unfortunate situation, but we don't have the (not) luxury of observing ourselves as we struggle. Yeah, these are characters in fiction, but they aren't 100% exaggerations.

P.P.S. Not trying to convince anyone to like Risako. (Wouldn't necessarily want to hang out with her in real life, but I just found her the least boring of the characters. Kaoru could've been if I had more tolerance for people not owning their own emotional responses. She's too offputting and not developed enough for me to like as a character.) Everyone has differing opinions about everything. And I'm grateful for it.

last edited at Jul 31, 2020 8:37AM

They certainly try their best to convince you otherwise, mentally.

Well, so do about 40% of people over 30, so that proves nothing.

Maturity does not automatically follow from age, alas.

They certainly try their best to convince you otherwise, mentally.

Well, so do about 40% of people over 30, so that proves nothing.

Maturity does not automatically follow from age, alas.

You can't really say that Uta is immature thought.

They certainly try their best to convince you otherwise, mentally.

Well, so do about 40% of people over 30, so that proves nothing.

Maturity does not automatically follow from age, alas.

You can't really say that Uta is immature thought.

You’re absolutely right. Given that she has been the most thoughtful and emotionally mature character in the manga (as compared to “Let’s not think about unpleasant things” Kaoru, “My marriage is a sham, and that’s . . .whatever” Reiichi, and “I have unwanted feelings for you, so I will steal your boyfriend” Risako), no, you can’t really call Uta “immature.”

@ffins07 ^
I was literally just addressing a story construction point—while it’s true that since Risako was lying before she theoretically could be lying again, there’s no story-specific reason that I can think of for having her do so. The cat is out of the bag in regard to the Reiichi/Risako relationship, and I don’t think there are any more cats in that bag.

last edited at Jul 31, 2020 9:22AM

Stil shitty done of him..no matter how pressured he felt he should have never done that to her. Like wtf~

last edited at Jul 31, 2020 9:50AM

Yay divorce

You’re absolutely right. Given that she has been the most thoughtful and emotionally mature character in the manga (as compared to “Let’s not think about unpleasant things” Kaoru, “My marriage is a sham, and that’s . . .whatever” Reiichi, and “I have unwanted feelings for you, so I will steal your boyfriend” Risako), no, you can’t really call Uta “immature.”

I've long maintained the irony of the adult cast of this series being a trainwreck of a Dysfunction Junction versa the clueless teenagers who Get Shit Done and try to sort out their problems like sensible people is wholly intentional, and serves to accentuate just what level of utter mess the former are.

random posted:
I've long maintained the irony of the adult cast of this series being a trainwreck of a Dysfunction Junction versa the clueless teenagers who Get Shit Done and try to sort out their problems like sensible people is wholly intentional, and serves to accentuate just what level of utter mess the former are.

Because adults have a lot more baggage and past than teenagers. And their issues are much more complex and have more consequences. People change. Kaoru, Reiichi and Risako aren't the same persons they were in highschool and they have more things to think about.

Uta can afford to "get shit done" and leave that household because she still has her mother to fall back on. Her only responsibility, as a teen, is to go to school and prepare her future.

Kaoru, if she dumps Reiichi, has none to rely on. She doesn't even has a job. Not to say that she couldn't do well on herself, but it's quite a big leap. The hurdle is a lot lower for Uta.

I can say in hindsight that the problems I had in my teens were trivial.

"And i want to start over again with Reiichi."
... Girl i-

Yeah, but it's realistic and understandable. She loves him, she's married to him, wanting to save the marriage is not surprising. He himself said he wanted to, neither of them even wants to divorce yet, it's just that she realized he's not providing what she wanted. Takes Risako to spell out why.

Because adults have a lot more baggage and past than teenagers. And their issues are much more complex and have more consequences. People change. Kaoru, Reiichi and Risako aren't the same persons they were in highschool and they have more things to think about.

While as a generalization about the real world it’s probably true that the average adult has more complex problems than the average teenager, I would say that there’s not much evidence that these adults in this series are significantly different people than they were in high school—rather the opposite.

• Kaoru is still (or was until just now) rather spacey, and significantly into Reiichi without particularly noticing that he’s not that into her romantically.

• Reiichi is tied to his childhood friend Kaoru by force of habit but sexually attracted to Risako.

• Risako is extremely competent and unemotional except for her troublesome interest in Kaoru.

Yes, Reiichi and Risako now have jobs (although we’re not entirely sure what those jobs are or what they entail besides the two of them meeting each other), and Reiichi feels that guilt about Kaoru’s mom. But they don’t appear to be “thinking about” much more “baggage” than they did when they were considerably younger.

Isn't she like 6 months from graduation? 17.5 isn't really 'child' even if we sometimes pretend it is for the sake of legal categories.

Is 18 years the age of "adulthood" for where they are at least? If i'm not mistaken, in Japan is 20, but i'm not sure if they're living in Japan or not...

It's a modem manga with Japanese tropes and everyone has Japanese names and honorifics. I forget if locations were ever spelled out but it's Japan.

The age of full adulthood is 20 but the age of consent is 16-18, raised by prefectures from a national baseline of 13. 18 in Tokyo.

Not that age gap manga usually let that slow them down.

Age of consent is 14-16 in most of the developed world.

IIRC Kaoru had a job that she quit after marriage.

I keep forgetting that we had big plotlines around Kuro and her girlfriend, and that other student who sleeps around a lot. Been so.long since we saw any teenager...

Honestly I can understand Kaoru for forgiving Reiichi and Risako
What I can't understand is her wanting to stay witg Reiichi lol

Isn't she like 6 months from graduation? 17.5 isn't really 'child' even if we sometimes pretend it is for the sake of legal categories.

Is 18 years the age of "adulthood" for where they are at least? If i'm not mistaken, in Japan is 20, but i'm not sure if they're living in Japan or not...

Can you really consider a 18 y/o as a kid ?

In theory she's not a child (a few months away from 18), but 18 yos are quite different than 25 or even 22.
Just because someone turns into an adult and can vote etc, that doesn't immediately make them mature.

Isn't she like 6 months from graduation? 17.5 isn't really 'child' even if we sometimes pretend it is for the sake of legal categories.

Is 18 years the age of "adulthood" for where they are at least? If i'm not mistaken, in Japan is 20, but i'm not sure if they're living in Japan or not...

Can you really consider a 18 y/o as a kid ?

In theory she's not a child (a few months away from 18), but 18 yos are quite different than 25 or even 22.
Just because someone turns into an adult and can vote etc, that doesn't immediately make them mature.

We get this go-round in every thread every time there's an age gap of any kind about "age of consent," "legal age of adulthood" (in different cultures), "chronological age vs. level of maturity," etc., etc., etc.

So what exactly is the issue in regard to this particular story? We're not making legal judgments here, or determining some rule to be applied across the board.

18-year-olds are not as mature as 22-year-olds--except for the ones who are. 25-year-olds are more mature than 18-year-olds--except for the ones who aren't. (I can name a half-dozen childhood friends who haven't matured past the mental age of 17 in several decades.)

As readers we have specific insight that we don't as policy makers or even judges. We know Kaoru hasn't been 'grooming' Uta and that the initiative is Uta's. We know Uta isn't trapped living with Kaoru -- in fact she's already left. We know Uta is about as mature as anyone else around.

The (debatable) justification for AoC laws is preventing certain harms in a presumed majority of cases. As readers we can see whether those harms are actually of concern in a particular fictional case, rather than applying rules blindly.

(There's also an issue that AoC create a harm if defied: it's not healthy to have a relationship you have to keep secret. OTOH Kaoru/Uta could avoid actual sex until U is 18.)

Kaoru could end up taking advantage of Uta's love for her but that's not an age gap problem.

18-year-olds are not as mature as 22-year-olds--except for the ones who are. 25-year-olds are more mature than 18-year-olds--except for the ones who aren't. (I can name a half-dozen childhood friends who haven't matured past the mental age of 17 in several decades.)

Exceptions don't make the rule, and these exceptions shouldn't be used as examples for taking away the right for the teens to be treated as teens, or for immature adults to be treated as adults.

There are some kids who get a bachelor's at 11, should we bend the rule and expect from every kid the same? If the divergence from the norm is too extreme (like some people remaining exactly the same at 50 as they were at 12) then this is more of an anomaly.

IIRC Kaoru had a job that she quit after marriage.

She worked in an office. She also used to work at the cafe that Uta worked at and seems to have an etsy store or something because she makes jewelery at home and sells it online.

I keep forgetting that we had big plotlines around Kuro and her girlfriend, and that other student who sleeps around a lot. Been so.long since we saw any teenager...

Well, part of that is the emphasis recently on Kaoru and company, and the fact that Kuro and the other teens had really nothing to do with the core storyline, which is a big part of why their stories always felt like such a frustrating cul de sac whenever the author focused on them.

Risako is gay, isn't she?

18-year-olds are not as mature as 22-year-olds--except for the ones who are. 25-year-olds are more mature than 18-year-olds--except for the ones who aren't. (I can name a half-dozen childhood friends who haven't matured past the mental age of 17 in several decades.)

Exceptions don't make the rule, and these exceptions shouldn't be used as examples for taking away the right for the teens to be treated as teens, or for immature adults to be treated as adults.

There are some kids who get a bachelor's at 11, should we bend the rule and expect from every kid the same? If the divergence from the norm is too extreme (like some people remaining exactly the same at 50 as they were at 12) then this is more of an anomaly.

So I kinda figured that offhand comment of mine would stir things up a bit, so let me clarify exactly what I meant and why it's a problem.

I'm not talking about the relative maturity of the characters, or whether they are emotionally ready for a romantic relationship, and I'm not particularly concerned with the age gap.

Uta is a minor, with no means of independent support, currently depending on abusively neglectful parents. If she gets together with Kaoru here and now, not only would that be an actual crime, but she wouldn't have any means by which to support or care for her. They'd have no support structure outside of maybe Kuro and maybe Reiichi? Society at large would just absolutely tear them to shreds over that relationship, not just because homosexuality still isn't that well-accepted in Japan, but because you have an adult woman who will be perceived to have "seduced" a minor within her own family.

It would be a clusterfuck, which, I mean, if you want drama, then yeah, it'll definitely get that, but I have the suspicion that the person saying they don't want a time skip just wants a happy ending, and that is -not- a happy ending.

If Uta gets together with Kaoru now, either Uta has to work part time or full time and has to drop out of school, or Kaoru has to support and provide for her. We already know Uta isn't satisfied depending on Kaoru and Reiichi, plus all of those create pretty messy power dynamics for the relationship.

The best thing for them, to have a stable, balanced relationship, is for Kaoru to get therapy (Probably unlikely) and a job, and for Uta to graduate and get an independent living situation so that they can FINALLY interact as peers and equals.