In fact, have we ever seen a flashback of Reiichi and Uta interacting when they both were younger and lived with their parents?

We did early on.

When and where? I believe you--I just don't recall it

We're 31 chapters in and things we speculated about since chapter 1 never become any more clearer and in fact feel more contradictory than ever.

More contradictory how? I think you are overreaching to make your point.

Reiichi cheating--is he having a sexual affair with Risako or not? What we know as established in-story fact:

• Reiichi claimed to be out of town on an unplanned extension of a business trip.
• He was actually in town with Risako.
• Risako admitted to Uta that the two of them were together.
• Risako lied to Kaoru about not having seen Reiichi since his wedding.
• After talking to someone on the phone while Kaoru was in the hospital, Reiichi was shown asking himself, "What am I doing?"

All this strongly implies that he is having an affair.

Subsequent information:

• Risako (possibly) is not interested in Reiichi at all, but (possibly) has a thing for Kaoru.
• When Kaoru was in distress at her mother's death, Reiichi dumped Risako.

Hypothesis: there is a sexual affair. Premise: Reiichi does care for Kaoru, but only as an old friend he feels guilty toward; he really wants to be with Risako.

What, then, is Risako's motivation for carrying on the affair? She's not 'saving' Kaoru from anything, as she believes she was doing in high school. An affair at this point can only hurt Kaoru.

Hypothesis: There is no sexual affair. Premise: There is some other explanation for Reicchi and Risako being together and for their lying about it.

What is that explanation, and why has there not been the slightest hint as to what it could be?

As has been suggested, the presence or absence of a sexual affair has a profound effect on our understanding of two of the main characters and their motivations, but the more we learn about them (particularly about Risako) the less clear the answer to the central question--is Reiichi cheating with Risako or not?--becomes.

last edited at Apr 11, 2020 11:36AM

Nez-chan, HELP!

Stop it sadhomu82, you were clearly warned by Staff.

Sorry won't happen again

Long time ago, I was thinking more of the Kaoru's father and Uta's mom( Kaoru's mother's best friend) having an affair since Kaoru's witnessing Reiichi with Risako has an "intense" negative impact...hahaha... I guess, it is not the case...

This manga really gives me emotions. On one hand, I think Uta deserves more than Kaoru and I would be happy if she finds someone else, but on the other I also want her to be with Kaoru as she was happier living with her than with her parents.

Honestly never in my life have I seen such hate over a translating team

Sure someone don't know about the SSSSS team

Who dat

It's better if you don't know.

Honestly never in my life have I seen such hate over a translating team

Sure someone don't know about the SSSSS team

Who dat

It's better if you don't know.

Now I'm intrigued

In fact, have we ever seen a flashback of Reiichi and Uta interacting when they both were younger and lived with their parents?

We did early on.

When and where? I believe you--I just don't recall it

I don't have the time to browse through the manga again, sorry. But I very vividly remember that in the early chapters when Uta and Kaoru remembered the past all three of them were in those flashbacks together and talked.

As has been suggested, the presence or absence of a sexual affair has a profound effect on our understanding of two of the main characters and their motivations, but the more we learn about them (particularly about Risako) the less clear the answer to the central question--is Reiichi cheating with Risako or not?--becomes.

While you very well summarized the plot points, I don't see in what way this has raised any more contradictions. You cannot contradict what was not there in the first place. It is only a contradiction if your assumption is that the love affair is set in stone and even then the "contradiction" only comes from your lack of info on why they act that way.

When Nevri said that the plot is becoming more contradictive I wanted to hear serious contradictions that make plot points simply incongruent with each other, not things that don't even seem that hard to explain simply by changing your perspective.

Maybe for some people the whole "has Reiichi actually cheated" thing is dragged. Personally I don't feel like it, because there is a good reason for it.
It is about how Kaoru deals with the situation. It is aligned with her personality of avoiding uncomfortable situations, just like her mom did when she was sick. The situation is dragged because Kaoru is dragging it.

Kaoru's whole point is not just loneliness and dependency, it's also her weak resolve.
Although I don't like her much, I find interesting reading about her, because it is a representation of a weak and maybe coward main character, something you don't come across in stories.
The whole ambivalence of whether there was a cheating is a great way to bring out Kaoru's true personality on the surface and even force her to change. If the situation was resolved fast, Kaoru would soon go back to her old ways.
Reiichi cheating-she would go back to how she was after her mom died.
Reiichi not cheating- keep living like she did during their first married days, and keep being insecure of whether he actually loves her or just married her out of obligation. Wasting years like that.

last edited at Apr 11, 2020 12:09PM

Honestly never in my life have I seen such hate over a translating team

Sure someone don't know about the SSSSS team

Who dat

It's better if you don't know.

Now I'm intrigued

Shitty-meme translations, translating only the chapter he like, translate the chapter in random order. He can translate Ch.63 and just after put Ch.56. Has uploaded for several mangas the last chapter, even if a team was working on it. Act like a troll, saying that people are free to ignore him. It's probably the most hated and blocked person on Mangadex for all those causes. Also has play the victim card that people where mad at him when it was clearly his intentions. Not ban because of Mangadex weird politics about uploading chapters.

last edited at Apr 11, 2020 12:26PM

Maybe for some people the whole "has Reiichi actually cheated" thing is dragged. Personally I don't feel like it, because there is a good reason for it.
It is about how Kaoru deals with the situation. It is aligned with her personality of avoiding uncomfortable situations, just like her mom did when she was sick. The situation is dragged because Kaoru is dragging it.

Kaoru's whole point is not just loneliness and dependency, it's also her weak resolve.
Although I don't like her much, I find interesting reading about her, because it is a representation of a weak and maybe coward main character, something you don't come across in stories.
The whole ambivalence of whether there was a cheating is a great way to bring out Kaoru's true personality on the surface and even force her to change. If the situation was resolved fast, Kaoru would soon go back to her old ways.
Reiichi cheating-she would go back to how she was after her mom died.
Reiichi not cheating- keep living like she did during their first married days, and keep being insecure of whether he actually loves her or just married her out of obligation. Wasting years like that.

Oh I like the way you put it at the end, very Schrödinger's cat theory like.... just open the damn box Kaoru!!!!!

Honestly never in my life have I seen such hate over a translating team

Sure someone don't know about the SSSSS team

Who dat

It's better if you don't know.

Now I'm intrigued

Shitty-meme translations, translating only the chapter he like, translate the chapter in random order. He can translate Ch.63 and just after put Ch.56. Has uploaded for several mangas the last chapter, even if a team was working on it. Act like a troll, saying that people are free to ignore him. It's probably the most hated and blocked person on Mangadex for all those causes. Also has play the victim card that people where mad at him when it was clearly his intentions. Not ban because of Mangadex weird politics about uploading chapters.

OMG what
This sounds like science fiction

Maybe for some people the whole "has Reiichi actually cheated" thing is dragged. Personally I don't feel like it, because there is a good reason for it.
It is about how Kaoru deals with the situation. It is aligned with her personality of avoiding uncomfortable situations, just like her mom did when she was sick. The situation is dragged because Kaoru is dragging it.

Kaoru's whole point is not just loneliness and dependency, it's also her weak resolve.
Although I don't like her much, I find interesting reading about her, because it is a representation of a weak and maybe coward main character, something you don't come across in stories.
The whole ambivalence of whether there was a cheating is a great way to bring out Kaoru's true personality on the surface and even force her to change. If the situation was resolved fast, Kaoru would soon go back to her old ways.
Reiichi cheating-she would go back to how she was after her mom died.
Reiichi not cheating- keep living like she did during their first married days, and keep being insecure of whether he actually loves her or just married her out of obligation. Wasting years like that.

It's an interesting theory that characterization of Kaoru is the purpose of withholding confirmation of the cheating.

But Kaoru only knows: a) that she saw her husband and Risako together; b) that Risako lied about seeing Reiichi recently.

Much of the evidence about the possible cheating, and much of what makes the issue confusing, is known only to the audience, not to Kaoru:

• Reiichi's guilty-sounding phone call at the hospital.
• Risako's casual admission to Uta that she was with Reiichi when Kaoru had her accident.
• Risako's (possible) sexual attraction to Kaoru.

None of that plays into how Kaoru does or doesn't deal with the possibility that her husband is cheating--it just tosses signals to the audience going in several different directions.

@Michykat

I think I just turned that post of yours into comedy gold by saying "Lesbians are coming" in Ned Stark's voice.

Oh man!!! That just became even more epic.

( ╹▽╹ )

The whole ambivalence of whether there was a cheating is a great way to bring out Kaoru's true personality on the surface and even force her to change. If the situation was resolved fast, Kaoru would soon go back to her old ways.
Reiichi cheating-she would go back to how she was after her mom died.
Reiichi not cheating- keep living like she did during their first married days, and keep being insecure of whether he actually loves her or just married her out of obligation. Wasting years like that.

It's an interesting theory that characterization of Kaoru is the purpose of withholding confirmation of the cheating.

But Kaoru only knows: a) that she saw her husband and Risako together; b) that Risako lied about seeing Reiichi recently.

Much of the evidence about the possible cheating, and much of what makes the issue confusing, is known only to the audience, not to Kaoru:

• Reiichi's guilty-sounding phone call at the hospital.
• Risako's casual admission to Uta that she was with Reiichi when Kaoru had her accident.
• Risako's (possible) sexual attraction to Kaoru.

None of that plays into how Kaoru does or doesn't deal with the possibility that her husband is cheating--it just tosses signals to the audience going in several different directions.

The average audience member isn't coming from the same place as Kaoru (emotionally, or in terms of knowledge), in order for them not to dismiss her fears as overreaction, we get told a bit more so we can emphasise with her uncertainty.

As others have pointed out there is a difference between contradictory and incomplete - what we "know" from the story is internally consistent, but incomplete - it is the divergent speculation about the missing parts that are contradictory.
All stories are incomplete (authors aren't omniscient, world building will always have holes), but in what you might call "normal" story telling authors deliberately draw attention away from the holes to create the illusion of completeness. "Good writing" and "feels complete" aren't the same thing, there are many styles (particularly those leaning towards first person perspective) that deliberately dwell on incompleteness and inconsistency, eg "unreliable narrator" is absolutely a thing, while detective mysteries (and even dramas) use misleading partial information all the time.

It’s clear there are two schools of thought on this series—one sees it as executing a sophisticated narrative long game, the other sees it as meandering, erratically focused, and ad hoc in its plot developments.

Readers have done a fine job talking inconsistencies into complexities; after a lifetime of studying experimental storytelling in literature and especially in comics, I see little convincing evidence of that complexity on the pages of the text itself.

It strikes me that Reiichi cheating or not cheating is almost a detail at this point. Even if he was doing it for work, sometimes you gotta draw the line, especially if your wife wants you around more. My mom actually had problems with my dad over this, and she's not AT ALL like Kaoru (he ended up changing jobs and we moved to a different state).

They are a couple with problems, and like a lot of couples where cheating may or may not be happening, it's not really the crux of the issue.

As for the Kaoru/Uta thing, the one part of Kaoru we have hardly touched on is her sexual identity. Her emotional needs completely overshadow any sexual aspect in this story, but ultimately to be in a sexual relationship you need to be, you know, sexual? In a sense that may be the root of the issue with Kaoru and Reiichi, even if he likes her as a childhood friend, if he can't hold down the other side of a couple relationship it ain't gonna work. And if Uta can, and Kaoru feels it, well...

It strikes me that Reiichi cheating or not cheating is almost a detail at this point. Even if he was doing it for work, sometimes you gotta draw the line, especially if your wife wants you around more.

We're talking Japan here. The perpetually-absent sarariman father is such a recurring cliché for a reason in their entertainement...

It strikes me that Reiichi cheating or not cheating is almost a detail at this point. Even if he was doing it for work, sometimes you gotta draw the line, especially if your wife wants you around more.

We're talking Japan here. The perpetually-absent sarariman father is such a recurring cliché for a reason in their entertainement...

Its not just physical absence, he blows her off when he is home too.

It’s clear there are two schools of thought on this series—one sees it as executing a sophisticated narrative long game, the other sees it as meandering, erratically focused, and ad hoc in its plot developments.

Readers have done a fine job talking inconsistencies into complexities; after a lifetime of studying experimental storytelling in literature and especially in comics, I see little convincing evidence of that complexity on the pages of the text itself.

There is a major hole in your classification tree - that the author is trying a complex approach but isn't succeeding (from your perspective, anyway).

Ad-hoc stories (which are a legitimate genre) require incredible effort to keep the "facts" consistent, just look at the way inconsistencies creep into TV series, and into prequels/sequels in franchises that weren't originally planned that way. We just aren't seeing that kind of inconsistency - our interpretations may be constantly shifting, but the story facts always end up dovetailing with what we already know, and with the development of the characters. It seems very unlikely the author could do this if they are jumping back and forth on a whim and pulling story out of their ass.

This is very much an emotional story, the objective plot is little more than scenery against which the emotional plot plays out. eg It doesn't even matter if Reiichi is cheating or not, just that Kaoru has lost faith in her marriage. Just look at Citrus, 10 volumes, 41 chapters and SFA actually happened, or was revealed; the entire story was in the meandering emotional journey of the protagonists.

In contrast we can look at traditional western comics, where objective plot developments are obligatory, they end up in a complete clusterfuck of retcons, reboots and AUs because that "skillful" directed development simply isn't sustainable for a long running story.

How I wish Dynasty had a button to like comments and follow users. Need it so badly. ^_^

We have since seen that her parents are, basically, a couple of unfeeling pricks. Were they always this way? If so, why was Uta a happy, cheerful kid until relatively recently? Or did something happen, perhaps related to whatever bad happened regarding Kaoru's mother, that alienated them and caused them to ignore Uta? Were the "hardships" simply having to live with asshole parents who then broke up, or did something happen that was more specific to Uta herself?

I'm not sure that it needs explaining. But a lot can be inferred with common sense. The thing about that sort of person is that they are fine as long as things go well, you really only see what they are lacking when the sh*t hits the fan and they are MIA (or even actively bad). It is also important to note that for most of her childhood she had both Reiichi and Kaoru - Reiichi until he went to Uni; Kaoru until her mother died, unfortunately at the exact same time as things would have fallen apart with Uta's parents.

It’s clear there are two schools of thought on this series—one sees it as executing a sophisticated narrative long game, the other sees it as meandering, erratically focused, and ad hoc in its plot developments.

Readers have done a fine job talking inconsistencies into complexities; after a lifetime of studying experimental storytelling in literature and especially in comics, I see little convincing evidence of that complexity on the pages of the text itself.

There is a major hole in your classification tree - that the author is trying a complex approach but isn't succeeding (from your perspective, anyway).

Pretty sure that falls under Blas's second category in practical terms.

In contrast we can look at traditional western comics, where objective plot developments are obligatory, they end up in a complete clusterfuck of retcons, reboots and AUs because that "skillful" directed development simply isn't sustainable for a long running story.

...I'm pretty sure you're talking about superhero comics here, which are hardly the end-all be-all of Western comics and a quite different kettle of fish - namely, they're franchises worked on by a more or less frequently rotating creative staff. Also essentially open-ended in a very "the journey is the destination" fashion ("journey" here naturally including Selling Copies...).

Though what you describe is not limited to that particular field; it's the natural evolution of any narrative franchise sharing those traits, particularly the changing creators who naturally have differing ideas - eg. certain long-lived Franco-Belgian BD franchises display similar symptoms (if less pronouncedly due to altogether slower publication paces) for much the same reasons, Spirou & Fantasio being one prominent example I'm personally familiar with. It conversely tends to be rather absent in series firmly in the hand of a singular creator (or specific team) and their particular artistic vision.

It’s clear there are two schools of thought on this series—one sees it as executing a sophisticated narrative long game, the other sees it as meandering, erratically focused, and ad hoc in its plot developments.

Readers have done a fine job talking inconsistencies into complexities; after a lifetime of studying experimental storytelling in literature and especially in comics, I see little convincing evidence of that complexity on the pages of the text itself.

There is a major hole in your classification tree - that the author is trying a complex approach but isn't succeeding (from your perspective, anyway).

Ad-hoc stories (which are a legitimate genre) require incredible effort to keep the "facts" consistent, just look at the way inconsistencies creep into TV series, and into prequels/sequels in franchises that weren't originally planned that way.

That's preposterous. That's not at all what ad hoc means in this context. As Nevri said, this shows every indication of an author starting with a general sense of where they want to go, but a very erratic and vague sense of how to get there.

Maybe it's going to be about Reiichi cheating to set up an opening for Uta--no, maybe it's going to be about random high-school girls--oh, I know, let's throw in a bunch of Kaoru angst--hey, what if Risako isn't stealing Reiichi, but has had a thing for Kaoru all along, etc. The 'facts' are able to appear consistent here because we're given so few of them; these are the holes that readers are so determined to patch up with inferences and speculation.

This series has all the hallmarks of a very common syndrome in limited-arc serial fiction--a high-concept setup posing the question "How in the world are they going to make that work?" with the answer being, "Oh, we'll make it work out in the end somehow, even if that means handwaving away what appear to be insurmountable problems." Citrus, of course.

EDIT: If you want to make the argument that "the execution of the plot doesn't really matter; it's the feels that count" we have nothing to discuss. Citrus was masterpiece of a feels-delivery system, but as coherent piece of narrative art it was one of the most epic disasters I've ever encountered.

last edited at Apr 11, 2020 11:08PM

That's preposterous. That's not at all what ad hoc means in this context. As Nevri said, this shows every indication of an author starting with a general sense of where they want to go, but a very erratic and vague sense of how to get there.

Maybe it's going to be about Reiichi cheating to set up an opening for Uta--no, maybe it's going to be about random high-school girls--oh, I know, let's throw in a bunch of Kaoru angst--hey, what if Risako isn't stealing Reiichi, but has had a thing for Kaoru all along, etc. The 'facts' are able to appear consistent here because we're given so few of them; these are the holes that readers are so determined to patch up with inferences and speculation.

You seem very goal-obsessed. Story telling is not the same as systematic delivery of plot points building to an outcome one on top of another like blocks in a pyramid. This story is "My Unrequited Love" (well, Tatoe Todokanu Ito da to Shite mo, but similar connotations), Uta and Kaoru getting together isn't the story, at best it is one possible ending for the story (seeming more likely than it did at the start, but still not certain).

The author never told us any of those things, we assumed them. Like Kaoru we are trapped in a maze of partial knowledge, guesses and half formed suspicions. I can't say for sure that it is deliberate, but if it is it's pretty clever story telling. I like it when a story makes me do some work, and it also makes re-reads more satisfying. The classic "show don't tell" advice is grounded in the idea that readers are more likely to believe things that they "discovered" for themselves.

I have to confess my tastes are very simple, I may like complex and controversial themes, but ultimately if I enjoyed the story I feel the author did their job well (and generally extend that to stories that others like but I don't; and if I do argue it will usually be about what something is/says rather than if it is "good", whatever that is). I don't actually care if the journey is meticulously planned or "ad-hoc", so long as it is enjoyable.

I think a lot of the reason that people keep arguing with you is not to dispute your right to a personal interpretation, but because, rightly or wrongly, the way you frame it makes it seem like "your taste" and "writing excellence" are one and the same thing, and that anyone who likes something you have problems with is simply an apologist for writer incompetence.

Shakespeare was a populist hack, but those same lowbrow themes and melodrama have kept his writing popular for centuries.

EDIT: If you want to make the argument that "the execution of the plot doesn't really matter; it's the feels that count" we have nothing to discuss. Citrus was masterpiece of a feels-delivery system, but as coherent piece of narrative art it was one of the most epic disasters I've ever encountered.

Re-reading this sentence it occurs to me that we may be at odds because of perceptions around plot driven storytelling vs character driven storytelling. Plot driven stories have characters and character driven stories have plot, but there are differences in the way local elements build up into the whole. "feels-delivery" isn't the whole story of character driven storytelling, though it is true that most "feels" stories will tend to be character driven.

Not every scene in a character driven story is governed by its place in the plot; it's organic, entire arcs can be about nothing more than getting to know the characters, and from a plot driven perspective this can seem incoherent. Likewise highly plot driven stories often end up neglecting character consistency.

MUL is character driven (as is Citrus), I can't speak for everyone, but I think for most people who like it we feel like we "know" the characters, and that feeling is built on character consistency - everything we see has fitted into what we previously knew in a way that felt consistent for the characters. Reactions like "that is totally something she would do", or "so that's why she is like that".