We have since seen that her parents are, basically, a couple of unfeeling pricks. Were they always this way? If so, why was Uta a happy, cheerful kid until relatively recently? Or did something happen, perhaps related to whatever bad happened regarding Kaoru's mother, that alienated them and caused them to ignore Uta? Were the "hardships" simply having to live with asshole parents who then broke up, or did something happen that was more specific to Uta herself?

I'm not sure that it needs explaining. But a lot can be inferred with common sense. The thing about that sort of person is that they are fine as long as things go well, you really only see what they are lacking when the sh*t hits the fan and they are MIA (or even actively bad). It is also important to note that for most of her childhood she had both Reiichi and Kaoru - Reiichi until he went to Uni; Kaoru until her mother died, unfortunately at the exact same time as things would have fallen apart with Uta's parents.

It’s clear there are two schools of thought on this series—one sees it as executing a sophisticated narrative long game, the other sees it as meandering, erratically focused, and ad hoc in its plot developments.

Readers have done a fine job talking inconsistencies into complexities; after a lifetime of studying experimental storytelling in literature and especially in comics, I see little convincing evidence of that complexity on the pages of the text itself.

There is a major hole in your classification tree - that the author is trying a complex approach but isn't succeeding (from your perspective, anyway).

Pretty sure that falls under Blas's second category in practical terms.

In contrast we can look at traditional western comics, where objective plot developments are obligatory, they end up in a complete clusterfuck of retcons, reboots and AUs because that "skillful" directed development simply isn't sustainable for a long running story.

...I'm pretty sure you're talking about superhero comics here, which are hardly the end-all be-all of Western comics and a quite different kettle of fish - namely, they're franchises worked on by a more or less frequently rotating creative staff. Also essentially open-ended in a very "the journey is the destination" fashion ("journey" here naturally including Selling Copies...).

Though what you describe is not limited to that particular field; it's the natural evolution of any narrative franchise sharing those traits, particularly the changing creators who naturally have differing ideas - eg. certain long-lived Franco-Belgian BD franchises display similar symptoms (if less pronouncedly due to altogether slower publication paces) for much the same reasons, Spirou & Fantasio being one prominent example I'm personally familiar with. It conversely tends to be rather absent in series firmly in the hand of a singular creator (or specific team) and their particular artistic vision.

It’s clear there are two schools of thought on this series—one sees it as executing a sophisticated narrative long game, the other sees it as meandering, erratically focused, and ad hoc in its plot developments.

Readers have done a fine job talking inconsistencies into complexities; after a lifetime of studying experimental storytelling in literature and especially in comics, I see little convincing evidence of that complexity on the pages of the text itself.

There is a major hole in your classification tree - that the author is trying a complex approach but isn't succeeding (from your perspective, anyway).

Ad-hoc stories (which are a legitimate genre) require incredible effort to keep the "facts" consistent, just look at the way inconsistencies creep into TV series, and into prequels/sequels in franchises that weren't originally planned that way.

That's preposterous. That's not at all what ad hoc means in this context. As Nevri said, this shows every indication of an author starting with a general sense of where they want to go, but a very erratic and vague sense of how to get there.

Maybe it's going to be about Reiichi cheating to set up an opening for Uta--no, maybe it's going to be about random high-school girls--oh, I know, let's throw in a bunch of Kaoru angst--hey, what if Risako isn't stealing Reiichi, but has had a thing for Kaoru all along, etc. The 'facts' are able to appear consistent here because we're given so few of them; these are the holes that readers are so determined to patch up with inferences and speculation.

This series has all the hallmarks of a very common syndrome in limited-arc serial fiction--a high-concept setup posing the question "How in the world are they going to make that work?" with the answer being, "Oh, we'll make it work out in the end somehow, even if that means handwaving away what appear to be insurmountable problems." Citrus, of course.

EDIT: If you want to make the argument that "the execution of the plot doesn't really matter; it's the feels that count" we have nothing to discuss. Citrus was masterpiece of a feels-delivery system, but as coherent piece of narrative art it was one of the most epic disasters I've ever encountered.

last edited at Apr 11, 2020 11:08PM

That's preposterous. That's not at all what ad hoc means in this context. As Nevri said, this shows every indication of an author starting with a general sense of where they want to go, but a very erratic and vague sense of how to get there.

Maybe it's going to be about Reiichi cheating to set up an opening for Uta--no, maybe it's going to be about random high-school girls--oh, I know, let's throw in a bunch of Kaoru angst--hey, what if Risako isn't stealing Reiichi, but has had a thing for Kaoru all along, etc. The 'facts' are able to appear consistent here because we're given so few of them; these are the holes that readers are so determined to patch up with inferences and speculation.

You seem very goal-obsessed. Story telling is not the same as systematic delivery of plot points building to an outcome one on top of another like blocks in a pyramid. This story is "My Unrequited Love" (well, Tatoe Todokanu Ito da to Shite mo, but similar connotations), Uta and Kaoru getting together isn't the story, at best it is one possible ending for the story (seeming more likely than it did at the start, but still not certain).

The author never told us any of those things, we assumed them. Like Kaoru we are trapped in a maze of partial knowledge, guesses and half formed suspicions. I can't say for sure that it is deliberate, but if it is it's pretty clever story telling. I like it when a story makes me do some work, and it also makes re-reads more satisfying. The classic "show don't tell" advice is grounded in the idea that readers are more likely to believe things that they "discovered" for themselves.

I have to confess my tastes are very simple, I may like complex and controversial themes, but ultimately if I enjoyed the story I feel the author did their job well (and generally extend that to stories that others like but I don't; and if I do argue it will usually be about what something is/says rather than if it is "good", whatever that is). I don't actually care if the journey is meticulously planned or "ad-hoc", so long as it is enjoyable.

I think a lot of the reason that people keep arguing with you is not to dispute your right to a personal interpretation, but because, rightly or wrongly, the way you frame it makes it seem like "your taste" and "writing excellence" are one and the same thing, and that anyone who likes something you have problems with is simply an apologist for writer incompetence.

Shakespeare was a populist hack, but those same lowbrow themes and melodrama have kept his writing popular for centuries.

EDIT: If you want to make the argument that "the execution of the plot doesn't really matter; it's the feels that count" we have nothing to discuss. Citrus was masterpiece of a feels-delivery system, but as coherent piece of narrative art it was one of the most epic disasters I've ever encountered.

Re-reading this sentence it occurs to me that we may be at odds because of perceptions around plot driven storytelling vs character driven storytelling. Plot driven stories have characters and character driven stories have plot, but there are differences in the way local elements build up into the whole. "feels-delivery" isn't the whole story of character driven storytelling, though it is true that most "feels" stories will tend to be character driven.

Not every scene in a character driven story is governed by its place in the plot; it's organic, entire arcs can be about nothing more than getting to know the characters, and from a plot driven perspective this can seem incoherent. Likewise highly plot driven stories often end up neglecting character consistency.

MUL is character driven (as is Citrus), I can't speak for everyone, but I think for most people who like it we feel like we "know" the characters, and that feeling is built on character consistency - everything we see has fitted into what we previously knew in a way that felt consistent for the characters. Reactions like "that is totally something she would do", or "so that's why she is like that".

Or the tl;dr version:
You see (plot) inconsistency: the author doesn't seem to have a scene-by-scene masterplan of the plot, each scene serving to build to the goal.
I see (character) consistency: the author has a clear and consistent vision of the characters, their backstories, emotions and motivations (and the direction of their evolution).

The fact that you think the execution of plot is a matter of "taste," and that you see this series as effectively developing characters tells me that we certainly do have nothing to discuss.

You think you know these characters as people; I see puppets dangling from clumsily manipulated strings, like Uta, hurried off the stage to twiddle her thumbs in limbo until the time for her plot-required change of heart brings her hustling back. The readerly work ethic required to perceive consistent character development in this, to say nothing of the ludicrous rigamarole that Citrus turned out to be, is quite amazing.

cringe

The fact that you think the execution of plot is a matter of "taste," and that you see this series as effectively developing characters tells me that we certainly do have nothing to discuss.

You think you know these characters as people; I see puppets dangling from clumsily manipulated strings, like Uta, hurried off the stage to twiddle her thumbs in limbo until the time for her plot-required change of heart brings her hustling back. The readerly work ethic required to perceive consistent character development in this, to say nothing of the ludicrous rigamarole that Citrus turned out to be, is quite amazing.

Even the necessity of plot (or at least its primacy) is a stylistic choice.

Her whole life, Uta has always come running when she knew Kaoru needed her, how can doing it again be inconsistent or surprising to anyone? Her heart has never changed, only her attitude towards it. This was something like her fourth "foolproof" plan to get over Kaoru, she's basically the Wyle E Coyote of romance-quitting, the only person who thought it was going to work was Uta (hence the cliff notes version in the manga; we didn't need the blow-by-blow of how the plan came unstuck, because we knew it would).

The character development is that this whole time she has been learning more and more about romance and relationships, and each thing she learns has coloured her interpretation of her feelings for Kaoru, and her decisions on how to deal with them. This time she has decided to embrace her feelings, that's definitely a new development.

Consistent character development doesn't mean characters changing fundamentally on a plot-defined trajectory, mostly it means they don't change at all, or change in small ways consistent with their existing traits.
EDIT: ie consistency here is with their character, not with the plot

last edited at Apr 12, 2020 2:25AM

EDIT: If you want to make the argument that "the execution of the plot doesn't really matter; it's the feels that count" we have nothing to discuss. Citrus was masterpiece of a feels-delivery system, but as coherent piece of narrative art it was one of the most epic disasters I've ever encountered.

MUL is nothing like Citrus...Citrus was only good at the beginning. After that there was no character development and no story. You really can't compare them, just because MUL might have some inconsistencies.

• Kaoru's mom told Kaoru to not eat the Haagen-Dasz in the freezer when Kaoru visited her in the hospital. When Reichii visits Kaoru fter her mother's death, Kaoru notes that her fridge is empty, but you can see tubs in the freezer that could be ice cream.

That definitely looks like a pint size container of ice cream. Sad if she's kept it this whole time but a nice catch.

They look small for that. And even if they are pint size ice cream containers, I doubt they're the same one. It's been years at that point. Grief can make you do weird things, sure, but ice cream spoils, y'know.

They look small for that. And even if they are pint size ice cream containers, I doubt they're the same one. It's been years at that point. Grief can make you do weird things, sure, but ice cream spoils, y'know.

Why is spoiling a criteria of whether she keeps them in the fridge or not? The entire point is that she can't bring herself to touch them right? She is not gonna eat it.

^^We know Uta's mom lost her medical license right, probably something to do with her treatment of Kaoru's mom and keeping it secret, or maybe she did other stuff against the rules to help her / stop her suffering? And the family fell apart after she got sacked and / or because of what she did?

She treated her friend. That's a conflict of interest and is enough of a problem by itself to have potentially gotten her fired. Doctors shouldn't treat friends or family. Many hospitals have rules explicitly banning them from doing so, because it opens up the hospital to civil suits. They'll often overlook stuff like that if it's just someone's GP or whatever, but if there's a serious medical condition where someone dies, that conflict of interest can become a serious legal liability.

There may be more to it, but it's bad enough if she didn't step away from the case and refer her to a colleague when her prognosis became serious. In fact, since Kaoru doesn't seem particularly angry at Uta and Reiichi's mother, it seems unlikely she's actually responsible for what happened in any meaningful way. "License suspended for practicing under a conflict of interest" fits the fact pattern we have pretty well. It also makes sense that she'd leave the country to continue practicing. If she lost her license to practice in Japan over a relatively minor ethical violation, she could still make a good living in a country with more lax ethics rules, but if she actually got a patient killed, that'd be more likely to follow her wherever she moved.

This is really rough on uta... :((( I hope kaoru actually ends up falling for her bc otherwise this is torture

They look small for that. And even if they are pint size ice cream containers, I doubt they're the same one. It's been years at that point. Grief can make you do weird things, sure, but ice cream spoils, y'know.

Why is spoiling a criteria of whether she keeps them in the fridge or not? The entire point is that she can't bring herself to touch them right? She is not gonna eat it.

Because it can start to smell. Most people wouldn't keep smelly, spoiled food in their freezer, (most likely through a move) and if the author intended her to be that messed up over her mom's death, they most likely would have shown the containers much more explicitly.

As it is, it's way more likely Kaoru just also buys ice cream sometimes.

Because it can start to smell. Most people wouldn't keep smelly, spoiled food in their freezer, (most likely through a move) and if the author intended her to be that messed up over her mom's death, they most likely would have shown the containers much more explicitly.

As it is, it's way more likely Kaoru just also buys ice cream sometimes.

Uhm... this may or may not reveal more about me than you, but I think you don't really know what spoiled ice-cream is like. You can keep ice-cream in the freezer years beyond the expiration date and literally nothing happens. It breaks down into a more crystalized state and tastes horrible, but it neither smells nor builds any fungi or similar things.

Well I can't say whether this was a subtle detail or not, but I think you can't categorically deny it based on expiration.

last edited at Apr 12, 2020 9:10AM

^^We know Uta's mom lost her medical license right, probably something to do with her treatment of Kaoru's mom and keeping it secret, or maybe she did other stuff against the rules to help her / stop her suffering? And the family fell apart after she got sacked and / or because of what she did?

She treated her friend. That's a conflict of interest and is enough of a problem by itself to have potentially gotten her fired. Doctors shouldn't treat friends or family. Many hospitals have rules explicitly banning them from doing so, because it opens up the hospital to civil suits. They'll often overlook stuff like that if it's just someone's GP or whatever, but if there's a serious medical condition where someone dies, that conflict of interest can become a serious legal liability.

There may be more to it, but it's bad enough if she didn't step away from the case and refer her to a colleague when her prognosis became serious. In fact, since Kaoru doesn't seem particularly angry at Uta and Reiichi's mother, it seems unlikely she's actually responsible for what happened in any meaningful way. "License suspended for practicing under a conflict of interest" fits the fact pattern we have pretty well. It also makes sense that she'd leave the country to continue practicing. If she lost her license to practice in Japan over a relatively minor ethical violation, she could still make a good living in a country with more lax ethics rules, but if she actually got a patient killed, that'd be more likely to follow her wherever she moved.

Yeah, but this series is hardly the epitome of procedural realism, and in manga (and manhwa, and especially in Kdramas), it's practically a requirement that medical professionals also be family friends, particularly when some kind of long-term condition is involved.

The "conflict-of-interest" sometimes comes up in fiction if there's some sort of risky surgery or experimental course of treatment involved, but I'd certainly be very surprised if it turns out that the mom was drummed out of the medical profession for something as anodyne (by fictional standards) as "is personally acquainted with the patient."

in any case, it will be interesting to see if that information is being withheld for any reason other than "author keeping their options open."

EDIT: BugDevil's right about the ice cream--over the long haul in the freezer it just turns into a sort of gelatinous goo.

last edited at Apr 12, 2020 9:12AM

The fact that you think the execution of plot is a matter of "taste," and that you see this series as effectively developing characters tells me that we certainly do have nothing to discuss.

You think you know these characters as people; I see puppets dangling from clumsily manipulated strings, like Uta, hurried off the stage to twiddle her thumbs in limbo until the time for her plot-required change of heart brings her hustling back. The readerly work ethic required to perceive consistent character development in this, to say nothing of the ludicrous rigamarole that Citrus turned out to be, is quite amazing.

Blas, I think you know I respect your analysis, and I defiitely also have my issue with the way this series has been structured, but I do feel like you are letting your frustrations with this series color your conclusions here.

Uta still being in love with Kaoru is pretty normal, honenstly. I have personally explicitly been in her situation, where I was hopelessly in love with someone who didn't return my feelings, and I'll tell you right now I've had at least three distinct "I am over her"-"wait shit nope, no I'm not" moments. Even now, I've conclusively given up on ever even seeing that person again, I've moved on with my life, but I'm still definitely in love with her, and I'm pretty sure I always will be. Unrequited love is a form of grief. There are stages of moving on, and sometimes you're better and sometimes you're worse, and sometimes you're okay with things, but sometimes you're not. It's messy and painful and you can backslide and break down for no reason at all.

Uta accepted that Kaoru wasn't going to return her feelings and moved away, but that does't mean she stops loving her. I mean, why would she? Kaoru is still the person Uta fell in love with. She hasn't changed, so why would Uta's feelings? Could the author have shown us more explicitly why Uta has gotten to her current place emotionally? Sure. But every writer makes decisions about what details to show and focus on, and every reader has different expectations about what does and doesn't need to be made explicit.

As for the deeper question of whether there's a plan at work here, I dunno. I feel like either of you could be right. It's -true- that all of the revelations so far seem to be internally consistent with what we've been shown. The only things that have been contradicted have been things we assumed. We have a mystery in terms of Risako's intentions and feelings. It's become the primary source of suspense in the entire story. So I think the payoff for that plotline is gonig to determine how/if the whole thing works in the end.

I keep going back to this line. This line never made sense to me in context. I suspected at the time it might just be an awkward translation, and I still think that's the case. At the time, I thought she was commenting on how she should be Uta's sister rather than Kaoru, but now I'm starting to suspect that she was expressing jealousy about how Uta, as her sister, can easily visit Kaoru, while Risako has to pass messages along and hear about her condition second-hand. Honestly rereading those early chapters feels pretty different with what we know now, which is probably a good sign?

I think it's pretty clear Reiichi married Kaoru out of sympathy. He's probably still carrying a torch for Risako. I thought Risako was also into him and bitter about the marriage, but now It seems more like she's into -Kaoru- and bitter about the marriage. Which...actually makes the title pretty goddamned appropriate, come to think. Everybody in that love triangle has an unrequited love for someone else in that triangle.

So in conclusion, (shrug) I'unno. I still think the side plot with Chloe and her girlfriend is meandering and a distraction from the real story, but I feel like the main plot might actually have legs if the author would just get down to it.

You think you know these characters as people; I see puppets dangling from clumsily manipulated strings, like Uta, hurried off the stage to twiddle her thumbs in limbo until the time for her plot-required change of heart brings her hustling back. The readerly work ethic required to perceive consistent character development in this, to say nothing of the ludicrous rigamarole that Citrus turned out to be, is quite amazing.

Blas, I think you know I respect your analysis, and I defiitely also have my issue with the way this series has been structured, but I do feel like you are letting your frustrations with this series color your conclusions here.

Uta still being in love with Kaoru is pretty normal, honestly.

Oh, I have no problem at all with Uta still being in love with Kaoru--that eventuality has pretty much been baked into the entire premise from the start. My problem is (as with so much here) how we get there.

I think we'd all agree that the bulk of the first portion of this story was devoted to Uta, and exploring her feelings (in what passes here for) depth--her angst, her repressions, her confession(s), her being rejected. Uta's decision to leave her love behind and voluntarily return to the supposed hellhole of her parents' (whose unexpected reunion, by the way, has never been explained, and in narrative terms might as well never have happened) was her major actual character development. But clearly a reversal (as Aristotle would have it) was always in the cards.

So what exactly is the rationale, precipitating event or epiphany that sparks that reversal? It's not the realization that Kaoru really needs her, or her heart welling up when she learns that Kaoru is in deep distress back home--she makes her decision before she knows anything about that. No, it turns out that the whole business about her oppressive parents is N/A, and she has plenty of time on her hands, so, once she thinks about it, she really still is love with Kaoru, so what the hell--she'll go with that.

Realistic? Sure, people do that sort of thing all the time. Even moderately adequate literary craft? As executed here, the author might as well have just written, "Yadda yadda yadda--Uta's back in love-- here's huggy-feels!"

I can't wait for the NSFW Uta x Kaoru sex scene.

Obviously, it's Utatop.

I can't wait for the NSFW Uta x Kaoru sex scene.

Obviously, it's Utatop.

You wait--the chapter will end with Uta beginning to unbutton Kaoru's blouse, then we'll get three chapters of high-school yuri hijinks. (Then Uta will tell Kuro the rest in a text message.)

Realistic? Sure, people do that sort of thing all the time. Even moderately adequate literary craft? As executed here, the author might as well have just written, "Yadda yadda yadda--Uta's back in love-- here's huggy-feels!"

How many times do you need to be explained this, really? Uta. Never. Stopped. Loving. Kaoru.
This is not a thing. She decided to give up and try to forget her feelings and walked out. That is not the same as ending those feelings. That is not even in her power to begin with. With some time to brood over it she accepted that she can't change how she feels. The end. No reversal has taken place. I explained this to you 4 pages ago.

The actual reversal that can potentially happen is that she doesn't give up on her love and tries to pursue again, which still hasn't happened. Sheesh.

Realistic? Sure, people do that sort of thing all the time. Even moderately adequate literary craft? As executed here, the author might as well have just written, "Yadda yadda yadda--Uta's back in love-- here's huggy-feels!"

How many times do you need to be explained this, really? Uta. Never. Stopped. Loving. Kaoru.
This is not a thing. She decided to give up and try to forget her feelings and walked out. That is not the same as ending those feelings. That is not even in her power to begin with. With some time to brood over it she accepted that she can't change how she feels. The end. No reversal has taken place. I explained this to you 4 pages ago.

The actual reversal that can potentially happen is that she doesn't give up on her love and tries to pursue again, which still hasn't happened. Sheesh.

You are completely misunderstanding the term “reversal” as it has been used in literary criticism for thousands of years (hence my reference to Aristotle). It is a “change by which the action veers around to its opposite.”

When Uta decided to give up her love and leave the house, that was a reversal of situation.

When Uta decides that she’s still in love, that again is a reversal, here accompanied by her action of returning to the house.

Whether she literally stopped loving Kaoru is completely and utterly beside the point.

last edited at Apr 12, 2020 12:07PM

When Uta decided to give up her love and leave the house, that was a reversal of situation.

When Uta decides that she’s still in love, that again is a reversal, here accompanied by her action of returning to the house.

So are characters supposed to always stick to one decision for ever, in order for the story to not be "inconsistent"? You know, someone changing their approach or making an exception for some time is just a human thing, it's not an author's bad writing.
As long as their decisions and change of them make sense with their character development and the situation around them.