I can't believe that people forgot about this~
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1mwJYx1Yj7fvunmx6
I don't like other people said I don't think Kaoru is dumb or useless, I just think she cared about how her feelings and actions might affect others. But now that Uta's gone, she doesn't really need a reason to keep up the ACT. I think Kaoru is an expert at observing her surroundings and people around her, we see her at the beginning of the first chapter catching Uta in her lie and Reiichi in his, in the middle of chapter 27. We see her time and time again saying that "it would be easy to just believe that lie." So sadly, if Kaoru obviously picks up that someone is lying, it would be hard for me to say that Reiichi isn't cheating.

I can't believe that people forgot about this~
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1mwJYx1Yj7fvunmx6
I don't like other people said I don't think Kaoru is dumb or useless, I just think she cared about how her feelings and actions might affect others. But now that Uta's gone, she doesn't really need a reason to keep up the ACT. I think Kaoru is an expert at observing her surroundings and people around her, we see her at the beginning of the first chapter catching Uta in her lie and Reiichi in his, in the middle of chapter 27. We see her time and time again saying that "it would be easy to just believe that lie." So sadly, if Kaoru obviously picks up that someone is lying, it would be hard for me to say that Reiichi isn't cheating.

It's absolutely true kaoru is very good at reading people's faces... that's why when she says she doesn't believe risako it's true, and she's been since college apparently. She says there's no better liar than risako, but she sees it very well.
I feel there's going to be a lot of twists and turns and risako is a central character in everything. I think she's using reiichi or this one's like a puppet...

She's that good at reading people, but Uta basically had to spell it out she was in love with her?

Blastaar I feel your pain. You're not alone, but sadly you're just wasting your time.

Anyone else disturbed by how many readers find Risako gaslighting Kaoru to be romantic?

Her friend was looking to her for reassurance, and she lied to her, waited until she was vulnerable, then implied she was paranoid and guilted her into apologizing.

I mean, it's obviously not romantic if she is actually having sex with Kaoru's husband. But we don't know that's why she was with him and why she lied. That scene was so deliberately odd, with Risako bringing up the issue, then getting bizarrely flirty, then looking surprised when Kaoru dropped it, it's hard to know what's going on until Risako gets her own chapter.

I am certain that Risako routinely flirts with both men and women to control them. Ayako's comment in response to Risako's claim that she has nothing to do with the attention of men is intended to signal that other (more observant) women in Kaoru's circle recognize this.

I think she overplayed her hand in this scene, however, and made Kaoru more suspicious. Maybe this was intentional.

Risako is characterized as the brightest of the adult characters, and has clearly demonstrated manipulative tendencies, so it is difficult to know what she was thinking when she first suggested that Kaoru have a baby, which resulted in the confrontation between Reiichi and Kaoru. Did she want to have Kaoru preoccupied with a baby so that she could continue an affair with Reiichi without strings attached, and misread how Reiichi would respond to the suggestion, and how Kaoru would respond to his reaction? Is she trying drive Reiichi and Kaoru apart, so that she can have Reiichi? She claims not to want a husband, but she also claimed not to be attracted to Reiichi, and then dated him. She is an inveterate liar. What does she want, exactly? One thing we know is that Risako always puts Risako first.

Her later behavior is just as confounding. She is supposed to be very smart, but elling someone that you aren't cheating with their husband, I swear, when they haven't even made the accusation is really the worst possible way to assuage a suspicious mind. If she is smart, what could she accomplish by telling Kaoru this? Does Risako intend to break up the marriage so she and Reiichi can be together?

It's a fiction, so the goal is that in the end we don't stay on status quo...
The purpose of the story centred on kaoru and uta is to see their development, all the more reason why they are separated by distance and can no longer help each other (especially kaoru).
For me kaoru is finally making a personality change and I hope that the author will demonstrate it later.
The manga will not end like uta and kaoru will stay away from each other and everything and finished....

I agree with all of your points, especially the point that Uta buffered Kaoru from emotional growth. Now that Kaoru no longer has Uta's direct emotional support, she will be unable to ignore her messy life and will be forced to confront her absent husband and her manipulative "friend." I think Uta needed to leave for Kaoru to recognize that Uta was not just a little sister but her defender and protector and her soulmate.

Regarding the cheating not being explained, that's just how a story works.

Please, I'm very well aware of "how stories work"--analyzing narratives is what I do for a living.

Aren't you the person who denies that authors can be morally judged for the themes they choose to put in their stories... or even that stories can have themes at all? That's a very untraditional stance for a person who analyzes narratives. How do those coexist?

There's a difference between a story built around mysteries and simple withholding of information about characters and their motivations. For chapter after chapter readers have had occasion to argue that we're just about to learn important information about these characters and their past and present relationships, but we very rarely do. Or else the plot suggests that something major is just about to happen, but it doesn't (and if it ever does happen, it will be several chapters down the line).

There's no reason to think that Reiichi isn't cheating except for the fact that final, definitive evidence has been withheld from us. Was Kaoru delusional when she thought she saw them together? No, Risako admitted to Uta that she was at the accident. Was there some innocent explanation for why they were together? If so, Reiichi declined to mention it when Kaoru was in the hospital.

Getting around to clarifying the events of Chapter 10 by Chapter 27 would be the farthest thing from "explaining them fast," and I actually don't expect that the story will end with no explanations at all. However, given the many occasions where readers have been mis-led into anticipating that important information will soon be revealed or a significant change is about to occur in the plot, there's no reason to believe that such explanations will occur except in a massive info-dump when the series is about to end.

Again, when you sit down and read it all at once, it doesn't feel nearly as slow and piecemeal as when you get it chapter by chapter. I was surprised when I did that, the other day. It actually flows very well.
Also... you're waiting for significant changes in the plot? Uta confessed (twice) and moved out. Kaoru's suspecting her husband of cheating with her friend, after having literally feigned amnesia to avoid thinking about it before. She's picking fights with Reiichi. Her mother-in-law has been revealed to exert huge control over her husband, and whenever she's involved, he acts just as passive as Kaoru does all the time. All this is pretty big.

The author throws evidence on the pile of Reiichi cheating with Kaoru but doesn't confirm it outright because that's Kaoru's whole deal. She suspects it but doesn't know, which sucks for her, because if she knew, she'd be able to do something about it. Her marriage sucks and neither of them are happy, and these suspicions are pushing on the dam, making it about to burst. She'd never be suspecting Reiichi like this before recently.

Of course, it's also playing out for another reason: I personally predict that Reiichi ISN'T cheating on her... rather, Risako is his only friend, so he vents to her about his shitty marriage and has sworn Risako to secrecy about it. If this is where the story is going, then there NEEDS to be a lot of evidence to the contrary, because there's the real danger of Kaoru coming off as PARANOID. As it's written now, her suspicions come off as totally reasonable (though not confirmed, and played kind of ambiguously)... if the evidence given to the reader was more scant, then we'd be in danger of turning on her and siding with Reiichi. It's way better to make us think he's probably cheating (thus sympathizing with Kaoru) and then switching it, than to make us think he's probably not (thus thinking Kaoru's crazy for suspecting him) and then switching.

She's that good at reading people, but Uta basically had to spell it out she was in love with her?

Kaoru is just so fragile that she just didn't want to believe it, but she most definitely knew cause she said so herself right after Uta confessed the first time.

it's ok yall we're at the shitty part of the manga now but with due time she gonna be running back to uta don't doubt me i can feel it in my bones

Okay... Why do I feel like there's some strange plot twist coming?

So like when exactly will Kaoru reach that point of rock bottom?

Goodness, I'd like to see how hard things will fall on her.

leave it to kaoru to have a perfect moment to sort her life out essentially handed to her on a platter and still manage to do nothing lmao

i'm starting to smell a red herring from the whole cheater reiichi subplot also, which means all of this setup could potentially be for absolutely nothing... ugh. maybe i'm being too harsh, but this manga's descent from salvageable into dumpster fire is starting to become more and more apparent with every one of kaoru's monologues.

also, fun drinking game: take a shot every time kaoru gets a pat on the back and a slap on the wrist by literally everyone for being beta as fuck

then we'd be in danger of turning on her and siding with Reiichi.

Everything you said makes sense until this.
I'd sooner throw myself off a building than side with Reiichi, regardless of whether he's cheating or not.

last edited at Nov 18, 2019 7:05AM

Regarding the cheating not being explained, that's just how a story works.

Please, I'm very well aware of "how stories work"--analyzing narratives is what I do for a living.

Aren't you the person who denies that authors can be morally judged for the themes they choose to put in their stories... or even that stories can have themes at all? That's a very untraditional stance for a person who analyzes narratives. How do those coexist?

You’ve mistaken me for the Scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz.

then we'd be in danger of turning on her and siding with Reiichi.

Everything you said makes sense until this.
I'd sooner throw myself off a building than side with Reiichi, regardless of whether he's cheating or not.

But the OP said "if the evidence given to the reader was more scant," before that. Taking that line out of the context of the complete sentence it was written in changes it's meaning entirely. I agree with the OP that, if there weren't so much evidence presented so far that Reiichi was cheating and Kaoru was acting exactly as she is now it would be very easy to sympathize with Reiichi. However, the evidence IS there. He was walking with her, in town when he was supposed to be out of town on a business trip, on the day that Kaoru fell and hurt herself; Uta told Kaoru that it was Risako who returned her phone because she was there when she fell down the stairs; Risako lied about having seen Reiichi recently; etc... there's just too much gaslighting going on for the two of them to be entirely innocent. However, I do expect that Risako isn't lying about not wanting get married. She's probably just having sex with Reiichi because he's easy and won't try to get her to marry him. If Kaoru ends up divorcing him, she'll drop him like a rock.

then we'd be in danger of turning on her and siding with Reiichi.

Everything you said makes sense until this.
I'd sooner throw myself off a building than side with Reiichi, regardless of whether he's cheating or not.

AGREED fuck that tall lankey flip flop looking ass bitch

You’ve mistaken me for the Scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz.

I'm sorry? Could you just straightforwardly say what you mean? I'm confused why you make a baffling one-liner like this instead of responding clearly to anything I wrote.

Everything you said makes sense until this.
I'd sooner throw myself off a building than side with Reiichi, regardless of whether he's cheating or not.

But that's because of how he's been presented. Kaoru's going through some shit, and she's all messed up. We're intimately familiar with that, and it's a big part of the point. But presenting a character at the end of her rope makes it easy for the reader to think she's being unreasonable or paranoid. Giving us hardcore evidence he's cheating (even if he isn't) keeps anyone reading from thinking she's being unreasonable.

You’ve mistaken me for the Scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz.

I'm sorry? Could you just straightforwardly say what you mean? I'm confused why you make a baffling one-liner like this instead of responding clearly to anything I wrote.

I would have thought the analogy was obvious--those are strawman versions of things I've said. And insofar as we've discussed such things, it was done elsewhere, so clarifying what I meant would be off-topic here anyway.

It's obviously possible to summarize this plot so that it seems to flow smoothly, and to defend the logic of the events, (perhaps by ascribing the muddled nature of the presentation to Kaoru's own less-than-sharp mental and emotional state). As I said, readers have been working overtime here to attempt just that.

Of course, that's mostly possible by simply ignoring the abortive cliffhangers/mechanically interrupted confrontations, the chapters that accomplish almost nothing, and the periodic digressions into the high-schoolers-in-love subplot(s).

It's certainly within the realm of possibility that there's some authorial masterplan that will eventually reveal an ingenious rationale for why such basic information as the reason Reiichi married Kaoru or why Kaoru feels guilty about the breakup of Uta's parents' marriage, etc. needed to be kept from readers after being introduced as issues at the very beginning of the series, in which case I'll apologize for doubting the author's competence if and when that time comes.

i thought risako was going to kiss kaoru for a moment like “i dont like your husband, i like you” but it was just a hand on the shoulder………… f

what if risako actually loves kaoru

what if risako actually loves kaoru

That would be the most retarded idea.

Raws for next chap are out , anyone else looked at them?

it's a flashback to those 3 at school; idk any japanese at all, but i think it pretty much establishes Risako is a giant B, but i'm not sure it adds anything we didn't know (that being said, i have gotten really confused with what's been revealed so far regarding all 3 of them and our speculation) - hopefully, the dialogue will be juicy tho

You’ve mistaken me for the Scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz.

I'm sorry? Could you just straightforwardly say what you mean? I'm confused why you make a baffling one-liner like this instead of responding clearly to anything I wrote.

I would have thought the analogy was obvious--those are strawman versions of things I've said. And insofar as we've discussed such things, it was done elsewhere, so clarifying what I meant would be off-topic here anyway.

Ohhhh. No, it wasn't obvious; it was confusing.
And fair enough, but I don't think pointing to a mysterious Real Job analyzing narratives is very helpful, either. If people think someone here is wrong and make an argument supporting that, any outside authority any of us have isn't really relevant, and trying to invoke it isn't adding anything.

It's obviously possible to summarize this plot so that it seems to flow smoothly, and to defend the logic of the events, (perhaps by ascribing the muddled nature of the presentation to Kaoru's own less-than-sharp mental and emotional state). As I said, readers have been working overtime here to attempt just that.

Of course, that's mostly possible by simply ignoring the abortive cliffhangers/mechanically interrupted confrontations, the chapters that accomplish almost nothing, and the periodic digressions into the high-schoolers-in-love subplot(s).

It's certainly within the realm of possibility that there's some authorial masterplan that will eventually reveal an ingenious rationale for why such basic information as the reason Reiichi married Kaoru or why Kaoru feels guilty about the breakup of Uta's parents' marriage, etc. needed to be kept from readers after being introduced as issues at the very beginning of the series, in which case I'll apologize for doubting the author's competence if and when that time comes.

OK, again, people making this point have kinda dropped the thread when asked to give examples for all this. I grant the Kuro plotlines don't fit in a way that I really understand, but other than those, I'm flummoxed about where all the interruptions and abortive cliffhangers are. People keep saying "nothing is happening!" but... a lot has happened.

I think a lot of the missing info is just for one simple reason: We haven't had anything from Reiichi's POV yet, and that's where all the missing info is. He's an impenetrable box for both Uta and Kaoru. But whatever the reason, isn't phrasing it as "some authorial masterplan" just kind of unnecessarily hostile? This isn't a particularly extreme or odd story; it's not warranted to sarcastically act like the people engaged with it must be waiting for some grand, Lost-esque twist that may never come.

karp posted:

OK, again, people making this point have kinda dropped the thread when asked to give examples for all this. I grant the Kuro plotlines don't fit in a way that I really understand, but other than those, I'm flummoxed about where all the interruptions and abortive cliffhangers are. People keep saying "nothing is happening!" but... a lot has happened.

From top of my head:

After stalling for few chapters, Kaoru finally asks Reiichi about his cheating and Reiichi gets phone call at this exact moment and uses that chance to bail from conversation faster than light. Kaoru doesn't even attempt to stop him and it's not brought back again ever since.

Uta finally is about to confess to Kaoru about her feelings. Then it ends on a cliffhanger and for few chapters we don't know how things went until we're given a very short few lines summary, blink you'll miss it (I did) in Uta's thoughts. Something that was presented as the most important thread in the story and what kept most people interested in reading it is not even shown and treated as a after thought to the story. Uta's confession should have a huge effect that seriously shakes the story, but we didn't even see it happen and it didn't really affect the plot until Uta forced Kaoru to actually acknowledge her feelings. Uta confronting Kaoru is probably only plot thread that was set up and actually delivered on next chapter (or at all).

I think a lot of the missing info is just for one simple reason: We haven't had anything from Reiichi's POV yet, and that's where all the missing info is.

And the one who decided to not give us his point of view is no other than author writing the story. So yes, the reason is "simple".

But whatever the reason, isn't phrasing it as "some authorial masterplan" just kind of unnecessarily hostile? This isn't a particularly extreme or odd story; it's not warranted to sarcastically act like the people engaged with it must be waiting for some grand, Lost-esque twist that may never come.

Withdrawn information and constant cliffhangers that are never resolved/takes many chapters to even be addressed again to keep readers interested in what happened is a classic tactic of mystery stories. Nothing has to be satisfactory explained or resolved, because the intrigue of how it all will end is what keeps people reading. The issue with that is because series heavily relies on us not knowing the exact details and having to understand events based on our assumptions and interpretations, once those details will be given and they turn out to not satisfactory explain events or behavior of character, then whole story will turn out to not make much sense and re-reading it knowing those information will make it unreadable. So yes, calling it a "masterplan" is pretty fitting, since at the end of the day the story's impact rely on all those things author set up to properly fall into places once they're revealed. If answers to those questions will end up being unsatisfactory, calling it a grand, Lost-esque twist that never came would be a very appropriate way to name it.

last edited at Nov 19, 2019 9:30PM

And fair enough, but I don't think pointing to a mysterious Real Job analyzing narratives is very helpful, either. If people think someone here is wrong and make an argument supporting that, any outside authority any of us have isn't really relevant, and trying to invoke it isn't adding anything.

In that case I was specifically responding to being told, once again, that “this is how stories work.” I wasn’t refuting any particular argument about the story. But I’m quite familiar with how stories work.

EDIT: While not a cliffhanger per se, the end of Chapter 24-beginning of Chapter 25 implies that the encounter between Uta and Risako will be significant in some way (maybe at last some insight into the Reiichi cheating conundrum).

But what actually gets accomplished is that Risako learns that Uta is moving out, and Uta learns that Reiichi and Risako dated in high school—new information for each of them, but all of it well-known to readers, and of little or no apparent significance to the recipients of the new information. So what is the point of these two characters meeting by a random coincidence?

EDIT2: I would add Kaoru’s accident to the “mechanically interrupted confrontation” list, and the limited post-accident amnesia is another. It’s the sort of thing that happens in stories all the time as a MAJOR EVENT, of course, but such developments generally don’t lay fallow for dozens of chapters before being mentioned again, either.

last edited at Nov 19, 2019 10:49PM