Isn't the top/bottom/switch thing a yaoi thing that people just kinda started using for het and yuri stories too? Despite not fully reflecting the reality of any of these?

Not... really? I mean, in het relationships it's kind of usually taken for granted who plays what "role", even if it's never specifically defined or is incorrect, so there is no "het specific" terminology, just "top" and "bottom" if things are "deviating from the norm".

I think yaoi typically uses the yaoi-specific terms "uke" (bottom) and "seme" (top) because for some reason I guess it's more important in that fandom to understand who is "pitching" and who is "catching"? I always thought it was kind of silly, but that's just me, clearly it's important to a lot of people.

Yuri also has its own similar terms--"neko" (bottom) and "tachi" (top)--but they aren't nearly so widely used, and tend to be replaced in error with "uke"/"seme" when such terms ARE chosen to be used, as people seem to assume what works for one same-sex relationship type works for the other. Or, obviously, they just use top/bottom. At least that is what my experience has been.

Which means I could be utterly, completely wrong. (But even if I am, I won't go back and delete my posts or anything. >_> /cough cough)

last edited at Aug 29, 2019 6:44PM

Well, thank you @Heavensrun and @shadesofgreymoon for the answers.

Ever so slight tangent:

But everybody falls on a preference spectrum, ranging from "I need to be dominant"----->"I prefer being dominant"----->"I can go either way"----->"I prefer being submissive"----->"I need to be submissive".

Hmm... so there is a spectrum in which I'm centrist...

Wait...

ominous voice Somewhere, out there on the internet, JREG and his Anti-Centrist Movement are putting me on a list.

shadesofgreymoon posted:

Which means I could be utterly, completely wrong. (But even if I am, I won't go back and delete my posts or anything. >_> /cough cough)

I didn't delete them because I'm wrong. I deleted them, because this conversation was going nowhere. I don't have time and nerves to waste on such pointless arguments. Also for the record, you are wrong. Just like Heavensrun with their second post, but whatever. I tried to correct their misinformations in the past, but they either didn't see them or didn't bother to reply, so I give up. Keep talking about things you have no clue about.

shadesofgreymoon posted:

Which means I could be utterly, completely wrong. (But even if I am, I won't go back and delete my posts or anything. >_> /cough cough)

I didn't delete them because I'm wrong. I deleted them, because this conversation was going nowhere. I don't have time and nerves to waste on such pointless arguments. Also for the record, you are wrong. Just like Heavensrun with their second post, but whatever. I tried to correct their misinformations in the past, but they either didn't see them or didn't bother to reply, so I give up. Keep talking about things you have no clue about.

LOL! Okay!

I don't think it's the place to discuss that.

Doujima and Akari getting together.

Akari fell in love with the wrong basketball senpai. I know, this is an "enlightened" manga so not everyone can be a lesbian, blah, blah, blah, but that other person asked for a self-indulgent wish, so I'll indulge, damnit!

Ah you mean, the girl Serizawa? I see hehe.

1. Foreshadowing the end of Sayaka's suffering. Funny that outside canon, in the fanfics, some guys started shipping her with Natsuki. Others, her with Miyako (shameless!). They also built Sayaka x Koyomi ship, which only sails in funny Tumblr posts.
   Hope rests in the LNs maybe it's fine.

2. I wonder how Yuu and Sayaka forged friendship after high school? I'm imagining a bit of the final chapter exploring this, but just a tiny bit. Yep, that Koyomi x Renma-sensei looks delish too.

3. Thanks for the answers about how Yuu got to that lol. I was frickin clueless but then cuz I missed the glaring cues huh.

4. Oh kudos to translator-san. It was a long post and the only thing that seemed to register here in
   me brain is you make translations your project. Awesome. It made me excited. More people should translate Yuri stuff haha.

Oh kudos to translator-san. It was a long post and the only thing that seemed to register here in
me brain is you make translations your project. Awesome. It made me excited. More people should translate Yuri stuff >haha.

Thanks for indulging me.

Not really translating, though, just editing and rephrasing lots and lots of things. Unfortunately my Japanese is next to nonexistent, so I can't translate directly. Drawing on translations by others (several, if possible) may let me provide more variety in the Versions we get, but there won't be more translated works. Not for the time being. Maybe I'll eventually be confident enough to translate for myself, but damn, Kanji is kinda rough to learn.

Also that feeling when you write a long post, and after you publish it you see that the discussion's gotten really hostile in the background...

I'm curious to see what 4s do with this chapter. Kusoshop's already been a huge step up from the initial rough translation.

last edited at Aug 30, 2019 1:23AM

Post-coital morning-wake-up Yuu is the hottest Yuu.

More like post-Koito Yuu, amirite?!

I'll show myself out.

Well-played.

For the actual chapter, I'm happy with how things played out. The moment it became clear they were both on the same page was when Yuu noted Touko had a good set-up and I got so excited. This chapter fulfilled expectations and hopes I didn't even know I had for the consummating of their relationship, Yuu taking the initiative as she had longed to many times before, their future including taking Touko's acting seriously, and the actual sex scene. So amazing. Wrapping up Touko's acknowledgment of what she had asked from Yuu before, Yuu's love for her anyway, Touko in lingerie (just like in Yuu's daydream! also shit Touko looks so hot there lol), their inevitable change and their inevitable sameness, and the choice that always underlies love in just ten pages. Beyond the story elements, I absolutely loved how lovingly they're drawn in those scenes. There's a magical sense of closeness and intimacy between them, a sense of just how little physical distance lies between them. I can all but feel their bodies pressing together.

Before I was worried about how Nakatani would wrap things up with only two chapters left, but now I'm content. Whatever the final chapter will be, it will be a fitting conclusion to this awesome series.

Also Yuu finally got to eat Touko's cheesecake! In more ways than one.

Which means I could be utterly, completely wrong. (But even if I am, I won't go back and delete my posts or anything. >_> /cough cough)

I didn't delete them because I'm wrong. I deleted them, because this conversation was going nowhere. I don't have time and nerves to waste on such pointless arguments. Also for the record, you are wrong. Just like Heavensrun with their second post, but whatever. I tried to correct their misinformations in the past, but they either didn't see them or didn't bother to reply, so I give up. Keep talking about things you have no clue about.

(cranks up middle finger) Either make an argument or piss off with the passive agressive "this person is wrong about things that I'm not going to explain or debate about" whinging.

Which means I could be utterly, completely wrong. (But even if I am, I won't go back and delete my posts or anything. >_> /cough cough)

I didn't delete them because I'm wrong. I deleted them, because this conversation was going nowhere. I don't have time and nerves to waste on such pointless arguments. Also for the record, you are wrong. Just like Heavensrun with their second post, but whatever. I tried to correct their misinformations in the past, but they either didn't see them or didn't bother to reply, so I give up. Keep talking about things you have no clue about.

(cranks up middle finger) Either make an argument or piss off with the passive agressive "this person is wrong about things that I'm not going to explain or debate about" whinging.

Now, now. No need to provoke further like that. If I--the target--can honestly find the humor in the situation and laugh it off, others should be able to, too. Lets try to not derail too much.

(And yes I see the irony in saying that when I have been one of those discussing the definition and finer points of intimate roles, which is already pretty close to derailment. :) )

but damn, Kanji is kinda rough to learn.

flashbacks of NativLang's 3 videos on Japanese

I feel like pointing out that top/bottom and dom/sub are different concepts although they often intersect, i.e. tops are more likely to be dominant and bottoms are more likely to be submissive. But you can also have submissive tops and dominant bottoms. Top/bottom is just referring to who's doing the sexual act upon whom, while dom/sub is about who's controlling the scenario and pace.

My experience with the terms "top" and "bottom" is not consistent with this. Not saying your usage isn't valid, but I felt like it's worth mentioning I've known a lot of people who don't use the terms the way you are here. In my experience, people use "top" and "bottom" to either describe whether they prefer being dominant or submissive, or to talk about the actual physical location of the people in a sexual position. ;p You're actually the first person I've heard describe topping or bottoming as relating to who is performing the sexual act.

I feel like that definition is problematic, as well? I mean, if person A grabs person B by the hair and climbs on her face, person B is "topping" by your definition, because they are the one "performing"?

(I acknowledge this is me being pedantic.)

This doesn't take away from your point that the top/bottom concept is not exclusive to heterosexual relationships. It's a way to describe sexual dynamics in all relationship types regardless of the genders involved.

Yeah, regardless of the specifics of the usages of the terms, we generally agree on that.

Doujima and Akari getting together.

Akari fell in love with the wrong basketball senpai. I know, this is an "enlightened" manga so not everyone can be a lesbian, blah, blah, blah, but that other person asked for a self-indulgent wish, so I'll indulge, damnit!

Ah you mean, the girl Serizawa? I see hehe.

1. Foreshadowing the end of Sayaka's suffering. Funny that outside canon, in the fanfics, some guys started shipping her with Natsuki. Others, her with Miyako (shameless!). They also built Sayaka x Koyomi ship, which only sails in funny Tumblr posts. Hope rests in the LNs maybe it's fine.

I actually thought of Natsuki. I feel like they might be a decent fit, and since they're both friends with Yuu, there's a possible angle for them to meet and interact.

Miyako is definitely off limits. She belongs to Riko-sensei. I can see Sayaka and Koyomi joining a book club together, but I can't see them dating.

1. I wonder how Yuu and Sayaka forged friendship after high school? I'm imagining a bit of the final chapter exploring this, but just a tiny bit. Yep, that Koyomi x Renma-sensei looks delish too.

I feel like they forged their friendship -in- high school? They interact through the Student council, and they've hung out together outside their duties a couple times, plus they've bonded over Touko. I don't think they'd call each other "friends" at this point, but they fit the bill reasonably well already. If Sayaka wants to keep her friendship with Touko, she's going to have to take Yuu as part of the package going forward anyway. The novels just suggest that that relationship has continued to improve over time.

Which means I could be utterly, completely wrong. (But even if I am, I won't go back and delete my posts or anything. >_> /cough cough)

I didn't delete them because I'm wrong. I deleted them, because this conversation was going nowhere. I don't have time and nerves to waste on such pointless arguments. Also for the record, you are wrong. Just like Heavensrun with their second post, but whatever. I tried to correct their misinformations in the past, but they either didn't see them or didn't bother to reply, so I give up. Keep talking about things you have no clue about.

(cranks up middle finger) Either make an argument or piss off with the passive agressive "this person is wrong about things that I'm not going to explain or debate about" whinging.

Now, now. No need to provoke further like that. If I--the target--can honestly find the humor in the situation and laugh it off, others should be able to, too. Lets try to not derail too much.

Eh, Nevri specifically called me out as wrong while refusing to say about what or why, and also inferred that I'd ignored their "corrections" in the past, so I feel pretty justified calling out their BS. I wasn't really intending to engage beyond "piss off" unless they wanted to engage in actual discussion.

(I am vaguely curious what "misinformations in the past" they "corrected". I have a vague sense that we've argued before, but I don't really hold any memory of when or in what topic.)

(And yes I see the irony in saying that when I have been one of those discussing the definition and finer points of intimate roles, which is already pretty close to derailment. :) )

I dunno, I think it's relevant. We're talking about Yuu and Touko's relationship dynamic, somebody comes in and says THAT DYNAMIC DOESN'T EXIST, I think it's valid to point out that there are real people in this very thread who are relating their personal lived experience that it does.

That said, the point is made, so...Yeah.

So MY favorite part of the new chapter is when Yuu says Touko's name the next morning, no honorific, showing that they have taken a step closer in intimacy.

My experience with the terms "top" and "bottom" is not consistent with this. Not saying your usage isn't valid, but I felt like it's worth mentioning I've known a lot of people who don't use the terms the way you are here. In my experience, people use "top" and "bottom" to either describe whether they prefer being dominant or submissive, or to talk about the actual physical location of the people in a sexual position. ;p You're actually the first person I've heard describe topping or bottoming as relating to who is performing the sexual act.

Ref: https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-primary-differences-between-topping-bottoming-compared-Dominating-and-submitting-D-s

I fully acknowledge this is a distinction within the BDSM community and you may not be talking about dom/sub in that context.

I feel like that definition is problematic, as well? I mean, if person A grabs person B by the hair and climbs on her face, person B is "topping" by your definition, because they are the one "performing"?.

Actually, yes. It's called a service top. One who is giving the pleasure but is not in a dominant role. Conversely you can have power bottoms, people on the receiving end but still in control of the scene.

All of this is to say that sexual dynamics can be really varied and subversive! I think Yuu and Touko are both complex enough characters that we can imagine them in contradicting roles. Touko might be more demanding on the surface, but Yuu is someone who's eager to please and try new things. An interesting scenario IMO would be Touko directing Yuu on what she wants done to her and Yuu being the ever doting girlfriend taken along her senpai's whims.

Doujima and Akari getting together.

Akari fell in love with the wrong basketball senpai. I know, this is an "enlightened" manga so not everyone can be a lesbian, blah, blah, blah, but that other person asked for a self-indulgent wish, so I'll indulge, damnit!

Ah you mean, the girl Serizawa? I see hehe.

1. Foreshadowing the end of Sayaka's suffering. Funny that outside canon, in the fanfics, some guys started shipping her with Natsuki. Others, her with Miyako (shameless!). They also built Sayaka x Koyomi ship, which only sails in funny Tumblr posts. Hope rests in the LNs maybe it's fine.

I actually thought of Natsuki. I feel like they might be a decent fit, and since they're both friends with Yuu, there's a possible angle for them to meet and interact.

I haven't even thought about the possibility of Akari x Natsuki but I'd be super-happy to see that happen as well.

So MY favorite part of the new chapter is when Yuu says Touko's name the next morning, no honorific, showing that they have taken a step closer in intimacy.

Yes, that was also a great line; it got a big "FINALLY" out of me.

Heavensrun posted:
So MY favorite part of the new chapter is when Yuu says Touko's name the next morning, no honorific, showing that they have taken a step closer in intimacy.

Same. It was a nice touch that nailed the progression of the relationship.

She couldn't say it in the previous chapter.

But now, she said it to a sleeping Touko, which shows she's totally in love.

last edited at Aug 30, 2019 9:14AM

Heavensrun posted:
So MY favorite part of the new chapter is when Yuu says Touko's name the next morning, no honorific, showing that they have taken a step closer in intimacy.

It was one of my favorite things, too. Up there with calling her dumb before nipping her, and telling her to Touch All The Things, lol

I ship Sayaka and Natsuki. I mean, you can't tell me Natsuki ain't a raging lesbian. I don't believe you.

I ship Sayaka and Natsuki. I mean, you can't tell me Natsuki ain't a raging lesbian. I don't believe you.

Natsuki seems to be a fun and levelheaded gal. She'll bring enough sunshine to Sayaka's rainy parade.

I ship Sayaka and Natsuki. I mean, you can't tell me Natsuki ain't a raging lesbian. I don't believe you.

I dunno. While I can see Natsuki being lesbian, I can't really see Sayaka and Natsuki dating each other. :/

...did those two ever even talk to each other, anyway...?

...did those two ever even talk to each other, anyway...?

No, they don't even meet each other.

...did those two ever even talk to each other, anyway...?

No, they don't even meet each other.

When did that ever stop a shipper?

...did those two ever even talk to each other, anyway...?

No, they don't even meet each other.

When did that ever stop a shipper?

Point.