There seem to be two main ways of making ethical evaluations about characters:

Understanding them in terms of narrative expectations, reading the cues that any given story is sending about how the characters function as part of the story. That understanding can change radically over the course of a story, of course, and sometimes the signals the story sends aren’t very clear, intentionally or otherwise.

(The rubric here is, “The author wants us to think ___ about [character] at this point in the story.”)

OR

Positing the characters as real-life human beings, and making judgements about them by imagining the character’s actions in the context of the reader’s everyday life.

(The rubric here is, “A person who does _______ is [bad/good/psycho, whatever].”)

Many (maybe most) readers can move pretty seamlessly between those positions, but judging by the Dynasty forums quite a few readers think mainly or only in the latter terms.

last edited at Jun 25, 2019 3:18PM

All that been said, she's still a huge bitch all the same. Having emotional issues doesn't mean it's right to treat people like shit.

Don't conflate my understanding of an action or actions with condoning them. I get why the girl is behaving the way she is. It doesn't mean that I'm okay with the way that she's affecting the people in her life as a result of her behavior.

Some people here have a gut reaction towards something unpleasant and I don't think they will change their mind even after the inevitable reveal of Nene's situation.

That was my point, actually. People have formed premature decisions about how things should be, and will very likely continue to stubbornly cling to those notions even after things have clearly changed. Your post basically says "People are going to continue to hate Nene to matter what happens after this because they already made up their minds to do so." Thank you for agreeing with me that that will happen - who could do otherwise, it is human nature after all. Glad we are on the same page.

No, my point was that they are going to still think these were bitch moves... because they are. There is literally no justifying them. Even with the best intentions they are cruel.

Well if Amane cheated I wouldn't say that but, I'm guilty, I know I will still hate Nene even after it is explained why she is a bitch to Amane.

Although we have seen the way Amane thinks about her and I wouldn't say that's how a person who cheated would think about their ex, but this is fiction and real life so anything could happen

Well if Amane cheated I wouldn't say that

Even if she had what Nene's doing amounts to nothing short of deliberate, wanton cruelty right in the face of it. Being wronged does not justify active malice.

Well if Amane cheated I wouldn't say that but, I'm guilty, I know I will still hate Nene even after it is explained why she is a bitch to Amane.

Although we have seen the way Amane thinks about her and I wouldn't say that's how a person who cheated would think about their ex, but this is fiction and real life so anything could happen

I will not say Amane is the bad one here because obviously not but her attitude of not letting Nene go is still somewhat chilldish because if you consider that Nene is really over Amane (which she obviously not) then having an ex you will still consider as a friend is still trying to make a move on you is somewhat obnoxious.

But here it's somewhat ok because Nene does that for whatever reasons unknow just to try to cut the ties with Amane. For me it's pretty obvious that Kou will try to put them together and will say no in fall.

I will not say Amane is the bad one here because obviously not but her attitude of not letting Nene go is still somewhat chilldish because

Thing is Nene didn't give any reasons for why she was breaking things up with Amane and that left Amane in a sort of limbo where she can't help wondering what the hell happened endlessly. We, as omniscient readers can see that the reason Nene dumped her is related to her inferiority complex, but Amane has no clue about this. She doesn't know Nene is envious of her cuteness and bright personality. She has a million questions and not a single answer. It's understandable she can't easily move on, and I don't think it's particularly childish for her age to feel that way.

last edited at Jun 25, 2019 8:51PM

She has a million questions and not a single answer.

I know this trope, it's the "peoples don't talk to each other about a misunderstanding and so they end up mad at each other for stupid reasons" one, it's pretty common like Zubat in caves.

I don't think it's particularly childish for her age to feel that way.

Maybe childish wasn't the good word to describe it. I think it's not really the good attitude to have when someone told you they want to break up. I know Amane need answers and to be fair she deserved it but still clingy to the hope of getting back together if the person is really serious about break up is basiccaly daydreaming.

last edited at Jun 25, 2019 9:14PM

but still clingy to the hope of getting back together if the person is really serious about break up is basiccaly daydreaming.

The thing is she doesn't know how serious Nene really is since she doesn't even know the reason for the break up in the first place. That considering, I think it's unfair for us to expect Amane to just move on. First Nene has to be honest with her and give her some good answers.

last edited at Jun 25, 2019 9:40PM

Can anyone think of any possible explanation as to why it’s so hard for people in a relationship to objectively assess the facts of their situation and, for example, calculate the probabilities of how likely it would be to get back together with someone you loved but who broke up with you without really saying why EVEN THOUGH it’s totally obvious to people outside the relationship, who can just snap their fingers and say what it is the emotionally involved person should do?

This ETERNAL MYSTERY OF THE UNIVERSE as to why people who are emotionally involved think emotionally rather than logically is a mysterious enigmatic mystery that is a constant puzzler.

After all, how many times have heartbroken friends come to you with their troubles and you’ve given them solid advice about how they should feel, and yet they don’t feel that way at all and they just go on feeling their bad old emotions instead of the better way you told them to feel?

What’s up with that, anyway?

last edited at Jun 26, 2019 6:07AM

Can anyone think of any possible explanation as to why it’s so hard for people in a relationship to objectively assess the facts of their situation and, for example, calculate the probabilities of how likely it it would be to get back together with someone you loved but who broke up with you without really saying why EVEN THOUGH it’s totally obvious to people outside the relationship, who can just snap their fingers and say what it is the emotionally involved person should do?

This ETERNAL MYSTERY OF THE UNIVERSE as to why people who are emotionally involved think emotionally rather than logically is a mysterious enigmatic mystery that is a constant puzzler.

What’s up with that, anyway?

last edited at Jun 25, 2019 10:38PM

^ God I love this show.

Well if Amane cheated I wouldn't say that but, I'm guilty, I know I will still hate Nene even after it is explained why she is a bitch to Amane.

Although we have seen the way Amane thinks about her and I wouldn't say that's how a person who cheated would think about their ex, but this is fiction and real life so anything could happen

I'm not discounting the possibility, although it seems a little out there. But that would still not justify Nene's behaviour. It would only explain it.

It's not like I can't see Nene being misunderstood or pitiable. I may even grow to like her by the end of the manga, who knows? After all, many well written characters have done contemptible stuff.
All I am trying to say is that you don't need to know a character's backstory or be "manipulated" by the author to see that these were cruel actions. There is no need to revise that statement or those impressions, because they are unrelated to the future information.

This is not a case where we see a character kill someone and then later find out it was actually self-defense or something. Unless there was a literal threat on Nene or Amane's life if she didn't act like a collossal bitch there, I don't believe we have to reconsider.

Interesting read. Let me predict the forum reaction:

Nene will be utterly demonized, and people will outright ignore the toxic stuff other people keep piling on her in the manga, which certainly could never harm anyone or cause self loathing.Naaah!

The Sempai, on the other hand, whose nasty manipulations are text will be barely mentioned, even when she is directly responsible for the attitudes of multiple characters, and their pain.

Poor Nene, poor Amane. That Sempai needs to be dunked into the next river, head first.

[Also, err, since when are you only allowed to break-up with people after giving mountains of reasons`? Sometimes people don't work out. Saying so is not a crime. Holy Maria-sama Watching Tie Adjustments, people.]

last edited at Jun 26, 2019 1:51AM

[Also, err, since when are you only allowed to break-up with people after giving mountains of reasons`? Sometimes people don't work out. Saying so is not a crime. Holy Maria-sama Watching Tie Adjustments, people.]

It's not that you have to give a reason, people are just trying to explain why Amane can't let go of Nene

[Also, err, since when are you only allowed to break-up with people after giving mountains of reasons`? Sometimes people don't work out. Saying so is not a crime. Holy Maria-sama Watching Tie Adjustments, people.]

So you read that part of the comments (wrongly), but not the actual context?
Nobody is saying Nene has to keep being in a relationship with Amane. The point is that she was clearly hiding something/lying. And that just breaking up without giving reasons (especially when it's an obvious excuse) is just shitty in general.

[Also, err, since when are you only allowed to break-up with people after giving mountains of reasons`? Sometimes people don't work out. Saying so is not a crime. Holy Maria-sama Watching Tie Adjustments, people.]

To add to what Buggy pointed out I'd reiterate that if you've concluded the relationship ain't working out for you then the decent thing to do is to break up properly - not leave the bewildered other party hanging in a limbo and emotionally abuse them for le shitz und giggles while you're at it.

To add to what Buggy pointed out I'd reiterate that if you've concluded the relationship ain't working out for you then the decent thing to do is to break up properly - not leave the bewildered other party hanging in a limbo and emotionally abuse them for le shitz und giggles while you're at it.

If you leaving the no excuses factor (I know it's a big factor but for the sake of the argument i will leave it aside), you have someone who doesn't want to let go and someone who move on but the one who don't want to let go still trying to hit on the other, it will piss off most of peoples and they will try d*ck moves to make them stop. I don't accept the emotional abuse but it's mostly due to Amane who can't let go.

Of course if Nene had given a justification to Amane then Nene d*ck moves will seem less "d*ck" but still bad, but shehave not so it feel just like Nene is a total d*ck

To add to what Buggy pointed out I'd reiterate that if you've concluded the relationship ain't working out for you then the decent thing to do is to break up properly - not leave the bewildered other party hanging in a limbo and emotionally abuse them for le shitz und giggles while you're at it.

If you leaving the no excuses factor (I know it's a big factor but for the sake of the argument i will leave it aside), you have someone who doesn't want to let go and someone who move on but the one who don't want to let go still trying to hit on the other, it will piss off most of peoples and they will try d*ck moves to make them stop. I don't accept the emotional abuse but it's mostly due to Amane who can't let go.

Of course if Nene had given a justification to Amane then Nene d*ck moves will seem less "d*ck" but still bad, but shehave not so it feel just like Nene is a total d*ck

Bullshit. If Nene just wanted to get Amane off her case flat out stonewalling her and cutting contact should do the trick. (I've personally done that with a tiresomely admiring coworker, for the record.) Instead she basically strings her along and -pay attention because this is the key point- goes out of her way to be hurtful and nasty knowing full well the other party is still blindly smitten enough to just meekly take it.

That's behaviour neither acceptable nor excusable but certainly an extremely effective narrative tool for making Nene look like an utter cuntbucket. Too effective, probably, if the audience is supposed to start viewing her in a more positive light somewhere down the road...

Some people kind of forgetting that Nene behavior hurting not only Amane but Kou too. Like, she dragged Kou without her knowing in this cafe to show off. Yes, to Amane’s workplace, when she working. And then just cut her conversation with Amane and leave Amane crying alone. What Kou feels about it? Is it ok to do this to Kou whom Nene clamed to love? And I want to know what author want to say with this story, but it’s doesn’t change the fact that her actions has been unnecessary cruel.

last edited at Jun 26, 2019 7:20AM

Bullshit. If Nene just wanted to get Amane off her case flat out stonewalling her and cutting contact should do the trick. (I've personally done that with a tiresomely admiring coworker, for the record.) Instead she basically strings her along and -pay attention because this is the key point- goes out of her way to be hurtful and nasty knowing full well the other party is still blindly smitten enough to just meekly take it.

That's behaviour neither acceptable nor excusable but certainly an extremely effective narrative tool for making Nene look like an utter cuntbucket. Too effective, probably, if the audience is supposed to start viewing her in a more positive light somewhere down the road...

I mean, the whole point is that Nene can't really put Amane out of her head probably because of something out of Amane's control and so instead of trying to find the courage to cut the ties herself, Nene try to make Amane cutting the ties herself instead.

For the moment i don't think the point is to put Nene in a more positive light because if it was then the author is doing a poor job. I think the positive light will probably come when we will find out the reason why she act like a total douche or it will never come and will find out Nene is a demon who need maidens's sadness from a broken heart to survive.

Some people kind of forgetting that Nene behavior hurting not only Amane but Kou too. Like, she dragged Kou without her knowing in this cafe to show off. Yes, to Amane’s workplace, when she working. And then just cut her conversation with Amane and leave Amane crying alone. What Kou feels about it? Is it ok to do this to Kou whom Nene clamed to love?

I don't think she really mean to hurt Kou directly. On that point i think she really love Kou because she think Kou can provide all the attention that Amane seem to lack from Nene's perpective. She is hurting Kou but it's mostly for hurting more Amane.

last edited at Jun 26, 2019 7:26AM

I mean, the whole point is that Nene can't really put Amane out of her head probably because of something out of Amane's control and so instead of trying to find the courage to cut the ties herself, Nene try to make Amane cutting the ties herself instead.

That Nene has any number of as-yet unspecified hang-ups about Amane is obvious to anyone who's been paying attention to the narrative. Doesn't make her blatantly and maliciously taking it out on the girl any less damning; indeed it could be argued that in a sense that's even worse than plain sadism would be, as the latter would at least have the marginal benefit of certain honesty of intent over making another suffer in your stead for the sake of your own insecurities...

For the moment i don't think the point is to put Nene in a more positive light because if it was then the author is doing a poor job. I think the positive light will probably come when we will find out the reason why she act like a total douche or it will never come and will find out Nene is a demon who need maidens's sadness from a broken heart to survive.

My point is rather that currently the author is doing such a stellar job casting enough shade on her character that any prospective future redemption is going to be a tall order indeed, and probably going to have some issues with plausibility and Unfortunate Implications.

I don't think she really mean to hurt Kou directly. On that point i think she really love Kou because she think Kou can provide all the attention that Amane seem to lack from Nene's perpective. She is hurting Kou but it's mostly for hurting more Amane.

Oh no, she done it intentionaly. Author wanted to show that she clearly pressed Kou into relationships knowing that Kou is too soft to refuse. And then she selfishly continued using Kou softness for her plan to hurt Amane so much that she cannot be around them anymore. In this situation she don’t care what Kou wants because she never talk to her about it or ask her “Is it ok?”

last edited at Jun 26, 2019 7:51AM

I have already brought this up 2 chapters ago, but in the first place Nene's need for attention and breaking up with Amane seem contradictory. Amane has been calling Nene cute every single chapter until the recent one. She has said her smile is pretty too, both things that allegedly made Nene fall for Kou.

Amane doesn't seem the type to be sparse with her display of affection either, so why is Nene acting like Kou is the first one to ever do these things for her? Clearly Kou is a replacement... but why? Why would she need a replacement?

Sure most people will say because of outward circumstances or because she was forced to break up... but isn't it just jealousy? Amane is certainly cuter and praised for her cuteness. She would easily make a great model (and was apparently used as one by senpai repeatedly). So being with Amane might just fuel her complex to the point that she turned blind to the good points.

It's just ironic that she is jealous of someone who loves her so much and sees all her good points better than anyone.

last edited at Jun 26, 2019 7:50AM

Bullshit. If Nene just wanted to get Amane off her case flat out stonewalling her and cutting contact should do the trick. (I've personally done that with a tiresomely admiring coworker, for the record.) Instead she basically strings her along and -pay attention because this is the key point- goes out of her way to be hurtful and nasty knowing full well the other party is still blindly smitten enough to just meekly take it.

That's behaviour neither acceptable nor excusable but certainly an extremely effective narrative tool for making Nene look like an utter cuntbucket. Too effective, probably, if the audience is supposed to start viewing her in a more positive light somewhere down the road...

Seeing how she was OK with still being friends with Amane, that would not work, though, and would be just as needlessly cruel in any case. And it's also weird for me to see so many people treat Nene as if she'd been constantly abusing Amane after breaking up, when she only reacted harshly for the first time when Amane asked for a kiss - which was clearly not OK - and for the second time now with the (admittedly quite cruel) showing off of her date to make Amane give up on trying to get back together again. Maybe not the best way to do this, but certainly effective, and we can't say Amane is totally innocent here with the way she's still trying to pursue Nene after repeatedly being told no.

Oh no, she doing it intentionaly. Author wanted to show that she clearly pressed Kou into relationships knowing that Kou is too soft to refuse. And then she selfishly continued using Kou softness for her plan to hurt Amane so much than she cannot be around them anymore. And she don’t care what Kou wants because she never talk to her about it or ask her “Is it ok?”

Might be reading too much into this, really...

In any case, without knowing the reasons for Nene's behavior it's hard to say much. I still suspect there's some outside force at play that has convinced Nene that them breaking up is what's best for Amane, but we can only wait for the eventual reveal to find out what really is going on there.

Oh no, she done it intentionaly. Author wanted to show that she clearly pressed Kou into relationships knowing that Kou is too soft to refuse. And then she selfishly continued using Kou softness for her plan to hurt Amane so much that she cannot be around them anymore. In this situation she don’t care what Kou wants because she never talk to her about it or ask her “Is it ok?”

Dunno, Nene still give Kou till fall for a real answer so it's not like she really cornered her by giving her no choice.

@BugDevil I know, i had the same reflexions but since the thing Nene seem to craving for is attention i think it's the reason why. My theory is like she was angry when Kou make attention to Amane, i believe she can have been jealous of the attention Amane receive from the camera Senpai and so she gone cuckcoo. I don't have better theory right now since Nene doesn't know that the Senpai know about their relation so there is no way the Senpai have come to talk to Nene and said to get far away from Amane fro whatever reasons. The other theory is that Nene will start to live overseas at fall and so she does that because she know she won't see them anymore after. That or she know she will die at fall cause of severe disease and she doesn't care anymore.