So when are we getting to the lewds?

@Arcane Or maybe, and please hear me out, it's none of that and Ayuko is thinking that she wasn't a good mother to her daughter - meaning being neglecting towards her upbringing due to being a single mom - and Asuka is infatuated with her mother due to seeing her mother less but carrying her father's affection towards Ayuko with her (like a twisted from of meme) which then results in the current dilemma of Ayuko.

Or it really is none of that and the author is simply trying to explore the themes of Mother/daughter incest and present it in an interesting manner.

I'm quoting Bakuman here: "If a Manga is interesting it will be popular/successful." - Which basically sums up what some of those authors are thinking, it is all about the entertainment of the readers and less the political/social/normative implications associated with these themes. I mean if I remember correctly none of Asuka's friends think any ill of her feelings towards her kin, right?

So let's say this story exists as a what if which is then presented towards us the readers and we are the ones who have to get invested (positive or negative) in it which will make it either popular or a success...my only questions is: Why are we talking about this Manga as if it depicted real people? Seperate the story from reality and enjoy entertainment in any way you want, that is what we ought to do and your analyses of the MC's is very interesting though deeply flawed due to the lack of Ayuko's interest towards her daughter's advances around the middle of the story - especially after Asuka confesses. Still very insightful.

Feast your eyes, everyone. Child abuse, incest and rape. It's so CUTE!

This but unironically.

The world needs more people like you. (‘▿’ʃʃ)

Unironically.

the comment section is sure a delight. for me, if you don't like it, then don't read it.

@BugDevil

Point taken I suppose, but in this current year of our timeline, in 90% of all countries and thanks to our inherent genetics, incest is almost unanimously seen as wrong. It is a taboo. It is morally questionable when it concerns a parent and child in particular.

But majority opinion doesn’t automatically equal right opinion. For example couple hundreds years ago people almost unanimously saw interracial relationship as wrong and morally questionable.

Also as often the case with the popular beliefs they are not exactly correct. Incest by itself doesn’t really increase the chance of genetic defects that much. Here some hard science:
frequency of autosomal recessive disease for the children of relatives - Fq(1-q) where F is inbreeding coefficient (0.25 for Ayako and Asuka) and q is frequency of a particular autosomal recessive pathogenic gene (ARPG).
frequency of autosomal recessive disease for children of random non related parents – q2
Most ARPG (more than 97%) have q ≤0.1 So for q = 0.1 chance of giving birth to a baby with genetical disease for random couple is about 1% and for hypothetical Asuka/Ayako child that chance would be 2.25%. Which of course 2 and a qaurter times greater but they still have 97.75% probability for a healthy baby. Hooray for them! (Of course any given human usually have more than one ARPG in their DNA but since we only comparing the probabilities I think we should leave it at that. for now).

@Arcane
Your previous theory about Ayako summoning demon by sacrificing Atsuhi and then having intercourse with it to conceive Asuka seems a lot more plausible for me.

last edited at Jun 22, 2019 8:47PM

Deleting my response to BugDevil, since we probably agree more than we disagree on the main point, and ^ @Nene was really the point I should have been making anyway.

Why, now I just feel deprived of a good post. Alas, Nene isn't wrong (except for the part about Japan not having haters and aggressive posters in forums lol).
Still, discussion and conflict of ideas keeps the world turning, never forget that. Empty mudslinging against a tag or genre is quite pointless, but critisizing a work in detail or disagreeing with how a topic is handled is not something to be denounced. Otherwise we get echo chambers.

Just to keep up a miraculous string of me agreeing with you—you’re right. The problem is not the thought-out arguments about the text itself, but the buzz-bombing posters who think they’re informing the public of new information by proclaiming the equivalent of, “Child abuse is not OK!”

You know, the people who have no interest in actually engaging the text and the terms it establishes, even if to criticize it in a negative way, but who either just sloganize (“Child abuse is not OK!”) or treat the characters straight-up as if they’re real people in the real world, and regard readers who enjoy the story as abetting real-world child abuse.

For instance, @Arcane’s reading of the story is one that is grounded in the story itself and has made me think back on my own take, even if I ultimately don’t find it to be a very plausible or convincing one.

(For the record: I do not think child abuse is OK.)

Feast your eyes, everyone. Child abuse, incest and rape. It's so CUTE!

This but unironically.

The world needs more people like you. (‘▿’ʃʃ)

Unironically.

People who feel child abuse/incest/rape is cute??

Still a lot of confusion here but still nice. What's going on with that one other girl here and how does she effect Asuka/Ayuko's relationship.
Can't wait to find out

I've completely lost track of the narrative these past couple of volumes.

Feast your eyes, everyone. Child abuse, incest and rape. It's so CUTE!

This but unironically.

The world needs more people like you. (‘▿’ʃʃ)

Unironically.

People who feel child abuse/incest/rape is cute??

People who can tell reality from fantasy. People who know that the things they like in reality and the things they like in fiction are two completely different, unrelated sets. And, therefore, have absolutely no qualms and feel absolutely no guilt about liking whatever books or movies or comics or manga or anime or games they like. That kind of people.

Look at Japan: they produce works of fiction that cater to every fetish and kink under the sky, the fans buy them openly, and they even organize giant events like the Comiket for greater publicity and accessibility. This is amazeballs. This is, aamof, exactly what brought me to manga, all those years ago, and made me an enthusiastic devotee: the freedom from self-censorship, fear, and hypocrisy.

Feast your eyes, everyone. Child abuse, incest and rape. It's so CUTE!

What's wrong with this yoyo? What's his problem?

A friend of BugDevil, shitting his Politically Correct fecal matter all over the forum.

Ignore him.

Hey, White Rose, this marks the second time I've seen you personally attacking BugDevil in a week. You did the very kind favour of extending the attack to another user, as well. This is in violation of rule 1. I'd suggest perusing the rules here so that you don't violate them again. In the meantime, you'll be receiving a one-day timeout.

I'd also kindly suggest, for the second time in a week, that personal issues plaguing you are not of interest to users browsing this thread to discuss yuri, and can only bring further trouble. Thank you very much for keeping that in mind, cheers.

Feast your eyes, everyone. Child abuse, incest and rape. It's so CUTE!

This but unironically.

The world needs more people like you. (‘▿’ʃʃ)

Unironically.

People who feel child abuse/incest/rape is cute??

So far I've only read a cute story about incest, not rape and abuse. I mean, unless you're talking about the nonsensical prattling of various posters that's borderline abusive to my ears - but that stuff isn't cute.

Seriously though, some of you are trying so hard to paint this as some kind of insidious story about broken and twisted people, like the poster who made the mental leap to assume that Ayako saying "it's her fault" means that she's talking about her secret drugging and raping of her unconscious daughter rather than her lack of presence in her daughter's life due to being a single working mom away from home all the time, a theme that's already been brought up multiple times in the story. As opposed to sekrit drug-induced rape shenanigans, I mean.

I wish I could say I'm making this shit up. Actually, I take back what I said. It's cute how ridiculously tone-deaf to the writing of the story this idea is. Only ironically cute though.

Let me explain one thing further as to why it's tone deaf, since I realize now I'm pretty much saying it's dumb without really explaining why. What people should understand about stories like these is the intent of the people writing or drawing it: what they seek is not to depict some 1:1 version of the average (not even all!) taboo relationship in question, whether it be incest, or loli age gap, or polygamy, or whatever some posters here and elsewhere feel the need to morally police about every so often. What they want to do is strip away all or at least most of the most harmful negatives, only depicting the potential good or appealing sides - yes, there are always sides that are appealing or good - of the relationship in question. An idealized form of it. So people coming charging in on their crusade announcing that real life versions of said relationship are not necessarily like this, or even worse, trying to apply real life conventions to said relationship, are pretty much assuming everyone else is fucking stupid and are attempting to bring enlightenment to us uncivilized savages, and I can't say I appreciate that much. I mean the theory Arcane cooked up is harmless enough, if completely implausible, but in the greater context of this discussion, it's getting pretty old, seeing people constantly trying to twist the story to fit the "muh abusive" lens some other people are absolutely demanding everyone else see the story through

last edited at Jun 23, 2019 1:23AM

I was always going to enjoy this most likely because I'm trash but it really has exceeded expectations so far. Sooooo looking forward to the next update.

Oh man, even though the updates aren't as frequent as they were before, this is still by far my favorite manga on this site. Today's update is everything!!! Ugh, I can't wait to see how much further they go in future updates.

Damn stop PMSing people, just enjoy it since it's one of its kind.

Feast your eyes, everyone. Child abuse, incest and rape. It's so CUTE!

What's wrong with this yoyo? What's his problem?

A friend of BugDevil, shitting his Politically Correct fecal matter all over the forum.

Ignore him.

Hey, White Rose, this marks the second time I've seen you personally attacking BugDevil in a week. You did the very kind favour of extending the attack to another user, as well. This is in violation of rule 1. I'd suggest perusing the rules here so that you don't violate them again. In the meantime, you'll be receiving a one-day timeout.

Good job. That b... bad person insulted me grossly and supported incest and rape in comics on the laughable claim that it's just fiction. She deserves to be banned. Next in line for being grossly offensive are Jeanne Mathison (^a piece of her is quoted above) and Minalinsky.

And BugDevil: not only you are right about how for 1x1/2 you gotta be morbid to come here and read it, but also that Happy Sugar Life is an even worse wreck than this is.

So when are we getting to the lewds?

So, flashbacks about mother when Asuka was with her sempai are actually "consequences'' of being abused by her mother in unconscious state...
But it seems that Ayako was also under influence of something when it happened (like she is half-aware, taking it like, a dreaming state of mind).

From that, subconscious "context" will take a shot in reality. They will do something lewd with each other, activating "loss of memory"

It's interesting manga about loosen subconscious energy. It's atomic bomb effect, in reality.
This manga is true, this setting. It does not matter from which prism this phenomenon is observed (like incest, in this case).

last edited at Jun 23, 2019 2:25AM

Good job. That b... bad person insulted me grossly and supported incest and rape in comics on the laughable claim that it's just fiction. She deserves to be banned. Next in line for being grossly offensive are Jeanne Mathison (^a piece of her is quoted above) and Minalinsky.

Frankly, I can't differentiate between "invested parody" and "actually serious" at this point.
For what it's worth, I don't have anything against incest in real life too! (assuming it's between two adults of course)

Just to make you more grossly offended. In case you're serious. But surely you're just joking, right?

last edited at Jun 23, 2019 3:16AM

This chapter was a shocker.
I didn't expect the mom to think of her daughter in that way, as delicious.
It re-contextualizes the relationship. Whereas before it seemed that the mother was dragged into this messy relationship with her daughter, now it seems like she had some droplets of feelings for her before the events in the story, and she has been repressing it behind a dam of self-control. But now Asuka has broken that dam, and the mother now has to deal with the full range of her feelings towards her child.

Can't wait to see what happens next!

last edited at Jun 23, 2019 3:47AM

But majority opinion doesn’t automatically equal right opinion. For example couple hundreds years ago people almost unanimously saw interracial relationship as wrong and morally questionable.

Also as often the case with the popular beliefs they are not exactly correct. Incest by itself doesn’t really increase the chance of genetic defects that much. Here some hard science:

Majority opinion doesn't make a right, but it lays down the rules. It decides what is taboo. And that is what we are talking about, right? If in 100 years the death penalty is righteous again, that doesn't change the fact that it's frowned upon in most 1st world countries today. What's right or wrong is always "decided" by the majority. Or by a handful of people with real power...

Look, I'm not a biologist (more into Chemistry). When studies show that a limited gene pool and inbreeding lead to an ever increasing rate of genetic failures, I believe them. We had very famous examples of that in royal families across Europe for centuries. The first generation might not be as affected by it, but if you simply make incest something acceptable, the chances only unecessarily rise. There is a reason even cousins are borderline for most nations. 1st degree incest is the most problematic in that scenario.

Of course all of that is sort of irrelevant to lesbian incest.

And BugDevil: not only you are right about how for 1x1/2 you gotta be morbid to come here and read it, but also that Happy Sugar Life is an even worse wreck than this is.

I have a flair for using overdramatic word choices, so please don't get the wrong idea. I don't particularily think this manga is problematic or bad. It makes me uncomfortable in a certain way, but my "morbid curiosity" doesn't imply that I find it detestable.

Happy Sugar Life sure is something else though... I only brought it up because a certain someone was screaming "rape" and "abuse", two things that are not present in 1x1/2, but certainly in HSL.

last edited at Jun 23, 2019 4:12AM

Look, I'm not a biologist (more into Chemistry). When studies show that genetic defects and inbreeding lead to an ever increasing rate of genetic failures, I believe them. We had very famous examples of that in royal families across Europe for centuries. The first generation might not be as affected by it, but if you simply make incest something acceptable, the chances only unecessarily rise.

Letting people with genetic disorders breed also raises the chances of genetic defects in a population but telling them they can't breed gets uncomfortably close to eugenics now, doesn't it?

I'm not particularly in the mood to debate the ethics surrounding incest between consenting adults, but the genetics argument against it becomes a weaker and weaker argument as time passes. There are other options like adoption, and technology marches ever forward to assist in predicting, preventing, or even solving such issues. For most, genetics is merely a post-hoc justification for their gut rejection of incest as a concept that's much more rooted in psychology and historical traditions. People who use genetics as an argument seem to construct this imaginary scenario that everyone will be scrambling to get it on with their brother or sister for multiple generations in a row the moment it stops being outlawed, which is an imaginary fantasy scenario, to put it lightly. Frankly, half the people I meet can barely like their siblings, nevermind love.

Instead, one could argue for example, incest is commonly rejected across cultures because it was historically highly disadvantageous to a family from a business perspective. Marriage is traditionally less about love and more about business transactions and forging alliances, and an alliance with your own family is a whole lot of fucking nothing, so it was naturally discouraged by most families, with the exception of the weirdo nobles that were obsessed with bloodline purity, but that's another matter entirely because it was again, still less about love and more about marketing and strict enforcement.

There is a reason even cousins are borderline for most nations.

That has nothing to do with genetics as there's almost 0 biological disadvantage to cousin incest.
It's more or less because people in those countries that are against it are ruled by their gut reactions in this regard and not much else.

last edited at Jun 23, 2019 4:24AM

Look, I'm not a biologist (more into Chemistry). When studies show that genetic defects and inbreeding lead to an ever increasing rate of genetic failures, I believe them. We had very famous examples of that in royal families across Europe for centuries. The first generation might not be as affected by it, but if you simply make incest something acceptable, the chances only unecessarily rise.

Letting people with genetic disorders breed also raises the chances of genetic defects in a population but telling them they can't breed gets uncomfortably close to eugenics now, doesn't it?

And yet (depending on the genetic disorder) a doctor in most cases would recommend not to have a child to such a person or at least dissuade them from doing it. Preparing them for the consequences. Someone who has a genetic bone disease is basically dooming their future child to have the same. That is not good family planning.
With incest, you don't even have a guarantee for anything. It could turn out any way, so it's like the lottery.

I'm not particularly in the mood to debate the ethics surrounding incest between consenting adults, but the genetics aspect of it becomes a weaker and weaker argument as time passes. There are other options like adoption, and technology marches ever forward to assist in predicting, preventing, or even solving such issues. For most, genetics is merely a post-hoc justification for their gut rejection of incest as a concept that's much more rooted in psychology and historical traditions. People who use genetics as an argument seem to construct this imaginary scenario that everyone will be scrambling to get it on with their brother or sister the moment it stops being outlawed, which is an imaginary fantasy scenario, to put it lightly.

One could argue for example, incest is commonly rejected across cultures because it's disadvantageous to a family from a business perspective. Marriage is traditionally less about love and more about business transactions and forging alliances, and an alliance with your own family is a whole lot of fucking nothing.

If you put adoption as the solution then you do indeed avoid the genetic issues. But between straight partners, it's not that easy to make certain it stays that way.
Well once we reach that future, all shiny and chrome, where we can use toolkits to have designer babies, genetic defects do become meaningless, sure. At that point we will have more pressing moral issues to consider anyway...

It's good that you bring up psychology, because it is a far more potent point than genetics in this day and age. Parent/child incest is extremely harmful to the child (not that it really helps the parent either). Even brother/sister incest brings a slew of mental issues with it. I think disregarding those as just "cultural" is a bit rash.

I don't believe that if incest was legal that everyone would scramble to pounce their family, but the cases would unavoidably increase. That is literally undeniable. It's not going to tear down society or some nonsense like that, but America already shows what the countryside does when they "inofficially" turn a blind eye to that kinda thing.

Eh, sure, there are cultural reason for everything. But often nature inspires culture in these cases. Procreating between non-related people creates a healthier gene-pool, so inherently humans want to do that and because of that it is normalized not to marry family members and that's how the entire economic structure even came to be the way it is. So what is the cause and the effect here, really?

There is a reason even cousins are borderline for most nations.

That has nothing to do with genetics as there's 0 biological disadvantage to cousin incest.
It's more or less because people in those countries that are against it are ruled by their gut reactions in this regard and not much else.

Oh really now? You're telling me 1st degree cousins are not in danger of genetical overlap? Come on.
It's certainly not all that problematic, which is why it's borderline.

last edited at Jun 23, 2019 4:30AM

I was confused with where the story was at this point, so I done a re-read... Mostly cleared things up for me and it's all kind of coming together now. Pretty sure at some point her senpai made some moves on her (I think that's what she meant by 'practice' in a previous chapter) and that's when she realised she was into her mum.... But I need more chapters to confirm my theory

And yet (depending on the genetic disorder) a doctor in most cases would recommend not to have a child to such a person or at least dissuade them from doing it. Preparing them for the consequences. Someone who has a genetic bone disease is basically dooming their future child to have the same. That is not good family planning.
With incest, you don't even have a guarantee for anything. It could turn out any way, so it's like the lottery.

And yet it's still not outlawed, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. You're saying that with incest, you have a lesser chance, so it's... worse? It's not like anything is stopping a doctor from "dissuading" or "highly recommending not to have a child" a brother and sister couple

It's good that you bring up psychology, because it is a far more potent point than genetics in this day and age. Parent/child incest is extremely harmful to the child (not that it really helps the parent either). Even brother/sister incest brings a slew of mental issues with it. I think disregarding those as just "cultural" is a bit rash.

I've always found the "power dynamics!" approach to arguing against incest as incredibly weak, outside of parent/child cases which I'm hardly advocating for in most cases. Except in this manga, Asuka x Ayako the best. But in reality, nah, of course parent/child isn't okay and it's not because it's incest, it's pretty much bad for the same reason an actual teacher/student relationship would be bad. And yes, that would be grossly imbalanced power dynamics, only even worse because a parent is even more significant and in an even greater position of authority.

But in regards to others like brother/sister or cousins, the reason becomes much weaker. That level of "imbalanced power dynamics" is something that can exist in nearly every relationship you can think of, whether it be born out of differences in money (rich and poor), age (older and younger), social status (senpai and kouhai), gender (the role expected to play by one's gender), among other factors. One can hardly argue that "being siblings" is a greater factor to contribute to an intrinsically imbalanced power dynamic than the aforementioned factors in every, or even most situations, and yet we hardly ban relationships from forming on the basis of those other factors - in fact, some are even idolized and romanticized.

I don't believe that if incest was legal that everyone would scramble to pounce their family, but the cases would unavoidably increase. That is literally undeniable. It's not going to tear down society or some nonsense like that, but America already shows what the countryside does when they "inofficially" turn a blind eye to that kinda thing.

The same kind of arguments were used against homosexuality. Let the homosexuals go about their way and it only will spread AIDS! was one of the latest of the tripe they had to justify it. I mean except for the part where they actually do say it will tear down society. Still, it amounts to little more than fearmongering. The southerner incest thing is a literal fucking meme, I hope you realize. It's a stereotype based on the fact that many communities were isolated before the invention of faster modes of transportation. The stereotype has some basis in truth for a small number of particularly isolated communities back a century ago when there were were little other options for them, but you're making it sound like there's mutant incest babies walking around all over the place there.

Eh, sure, there are cultural reason for everything. But often nature inspires culture in these cases. Procreating between non-related people creates a healthier gene-pool, so inherently humans want to do that and because of that it is normalized not to marry family members and that's how the entire economic strucutre even came to be the way it is. So what is the cause and the effect here, really?

Certainly, that is a possibility, and I can't prove or disprove it otherwise. But even assuming that the ban is born solely out of "wanting to better our collective gene pool," should we really be limiting personal rights between consenting adult individuals for a reason that pretty much amounts to "it's not good for the state"?

Oh really now? You're telling me 1st degree cousins are not in danger of genetical overlap? Come on.
It's certainly not all that problematic, which is why it's borderline.

I edited it to say "almost 0 disadvantage" instead precisely because i saw this coming.
It's not significant enough to really warrant discouraging.
https://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/04/us/few-risks-seen-to-the-children-of-1st-cousins.html
Even if you tell people this, they'll still go "its weird and gross still!" so yeah. I stand by my statement.

last edited at Jun 23, 2019 5:00AM