Yup. Especially the first episodes were really annoying for that. It was basically trans advocacy over and over, and no one is interested in that. Supporting trans rights works by writing good trans stories, not trying super hard to be an ally and write something meh. (that will have the exact opposite impact)

I think that part of the reason for this is that in a really conservative environment, with an audience that may not be familiar with, or even feel awkward about the subject of LGBT, you may just have to shout that much louder that "this is okay!", to get the point across to the reader. Granted, Japanese media does have a very strong tendency to tell rather than to show, with exposition dumps being the norm in Japanese media. I think these two factors combine to make it come off as preachy and exaggerated to us familiar with such questions.

Sometimes we have to remember that — unfortunately — these stories are usually written in a society where "everyone has the right to be who they want to be" and "everyone has equal value" is not obvious or common sense.

last edited at Mar 16, 2019 5:01PM

Admittedly I didn't read every het transgirl manga there is, but, focusing on the "real" transgender manga, not the magical ones, even though most of them are transgender metaphors (like Bra Girl, Boku Girl, Kanojo ni Haru ni...), nor the crossdressing or trap ones...

List of transgirls lesbians in manga :
- Wandering Son (main character)
- Double House
- Half & Half
- Nicoichi
- Otokono Doushi Renai Chuu (trans girl x trans girl )
- Himegoto Juukyusai no Seifuku (I believe she's trans right ?)
- Kyu Kara Yonshimai

List of transgirls het in manga :
- Wandering Son (yuki-san)
- Ai no Shintairaku
- F.Compo (trans guy x trans woman)
- Hanayome wa Motodan shi
- No Bra (if I remember well she's trans ?)
- Sunu Sumu Muriku no Koibito

Pansexual Tgirls :
- Arachne (Angel Sanctuary) (can't remember but pretty sure she's bi/pan, angel sanctuary is a big genderfuck anyway)
- Bokura no Hentai (not sure but I believe Marika was bi ?)
- Genshiken Nidaime & Spotted Flower (clearly bi/pan)

Marika straight as a ramp

Oh btw I'll link you this but for a genderfluid lesbian here https://mangarock.com/manga/mrs-serie-100105040
In general there is this issue where str8 trans people are seen as gay men which hurts trans lesbians the most. I've heard horror stories where trans women got denied hrt cause they hate men

last edited at Mar 16, 2019 5:18PM

TransHomura posted:

Oh btw I'll link you this but for a genderfluid lesbian here https://mangarock.com/manga/mrs-serie-100105040

Eh...I started to read that one recently and I'm not sure what to make of it. It just looks like an ecchi gender bender, with the MC just wanting to be a girl part time, in order to have fun. Genderfluid is putting it mildly. More like a wish fulfilling fantasy for horny boys... the ability to turn back is just too convenient.

TransHomura posted:

Oh btw I'll link you this but for a genderfluid lesbian here https://mangarock.com/manga/mrs-serie-100105040

Eh...I started to read that one recently and I'm not sure what to make of it. It just looks like an ecchi gender bender, with the MC just wanting to be a girl part time, in order to have fun. Genderfluid is putting it mildly. More like a wish fulfilling fantasy for horny boys... the ability to turn back is just too convenient.

I don't see how it could be interpreted as a genderfluid story at all really but the point in having that ability is most assuredly because the main character has the specific option of turning back but prefers not to; intensified as the story progresses. For the most part it's just a silly comedy with some mostly inoffensive transgressive elements but it's definitely meant to be a trans story, albeit one in a more convenient package.

As for the previous comment stated elsewhere about "most" stories about trans women being about trans lesbians... definitely going to disagree pretty hard on that one. Both inside and outside the animanga sphere, trans girl characters that also happen to be wlw are exceedingly rare. There's room for this one to still be a yuri manga though - if Akira turns out bisexual - but the story hardly seems to be going in that direction. Rather, Hime exploring her own gender identity over the course of the story seems far more likely.

All the same, I appreciate some things this manga handles well, such as properly addressing the idea that Hime's affections were that of a variance in orientation rather than a displacement due to the subject's gender (one of the few things crossdressing stories tend to confront in a more positive way) or the ways in which being supportive can prove harmful. Admittedly, as a reader personally jaded to the violence of the trans experience, it becomes cynically difficult to feel the growing happiness of the trans girl in question while witnessing all the aggressive alienation around her, but I don't consider this is a reflection of the story's quality. A social dissemination is going to come with the inherent drawback of being inspired by reality, and exactly that is what makes it difficult to embrace in narrative sometimes.

last edited at Mar 16, 2019 6:17PM

Yukka is such a kind and caring girl.... is it wrong I ship Yukka and Hime together instead?

Well let's see how it unfolds. I'm mildly annoyed by the trans representation but since it's not transyuri anymore, it's a lot more interesting. (as I said, it's really the "girl going out with a hot guy in dress" thing that annoys the shit out of me, because it's a very hypocrit fantasy of a lot of women out there and I suffered from it, as did a lot of others I'm sure)

And actually, if it's trans het, then it's nice that Akira is not passing (without it being yaoi like a lot of yaoi out there).

So I'm a lot more interested in that manga now.

This manga is only preaching at the moment. It's not telling a story.

Yup. Especially the first episodes were really annoying for that. It was basically trans advocacy over and over, and no one is interested in that. Supporting trans rights works by writing good trans stories, not trying super hard to be an ally and write something meh. (that will have the exact opposite impact)

Now there's romance and things seem to happen, so I'm happy. (I'm more interested in Yuuka x Hime but well, I'm rooting for Akira too of course)

I'm not sure I see what could be considered hypocritical about a girl fantasizing about or wanting to go out with a "hot guy in a dress?"

last edited at Mar 16, 2019 7:42PM

Admittedly I didn't read every het transgirl manga there is, but, focusing on the "real" transgender manga, not the magical ones, even though most of them are transgender metaphors (like Bra Girl, Boku Girl, Kanojo ni Haru ni...), nor the crossdressing or trap ones...

List of transgirls lesbians in manga :
- Nicoichi

Did Nicoichi change dramatically after the point where it stopped getting translated because as far as I remember the protag was definitely a cis dude who cross-dressed due to circumstance.

I am very okay with a Hime x Yuuka ending

I meant to write it after chapter 4 dropped, but life is a bitch... Well good for me, my opinion of the series didn't change much and in fact every new chapter just confirms my first impressions and guesses. Also I guess writing it now instead of when chapters were released, gives me better chance to explain my issues, since it gives me hindsight to earlier chapters.

Reading description you'd think Hime and Akira are the 2 main protagonists and story would be about Akira's change, but for the most part she feels like a side character and entire focus is on Hime. And that is my biggest issues with that series. It's Hime's story, not Akira's. Sure, you could still explore problems with changing someone's gender from perspective of someone close to them. But that's not what we got. Instead we're trading Akira's struggles with gender identity for Hime's love story. In fact everything revolves around her. And if that wasn't bad enough, manga portrays Hime's conflicting feelings as equal, if not even bigger issue, than what Akira is going through, which is insulting.

So it's Hime's love story about her friend, she's in love with, realizing she is a girl and how Hime has to deal with that. Already some red flags. Author is more interested in exploring how Hime is copying with Akira's change, rather than Akira herself. Again, you could tell a interesting story with that premise. Well, this manga doesn't. In fact this is the only thing I was wrong about, but the actual reason she struggled with her feelings for Akira was so stupid, I wish I was right about it as well. It'd would at least make for better story than what author actually went for. Originally I thought Hime never actually accepted Akira as a girl and despite initially being ok with it, she simply repressed her feelings. She felt like a terrible person, because deep down she still wanted Akira to be a boy. But no. The real reason she felt this way was because she thought liking Akira meant, she still saw her as a guy. I understand, especially in homophobic countries, many people think homosexuality is wrong and not everyone is aware gay people even exist, but c'mon. Japan is not the friendliest, but it's not like there's no way to ever hear of possibility. We're talking on forum with manga dedicated to same sex love. Are you seriously telling me Hime's entire struggle was relying on the fact, she never once considered 2 girls dating a option? And the fact it was all solved as soon as she was told it's fine by someone else her age is nothing short of infuriating. It made her years of struggles into 1 big joke. I guess it does make her a perfect yuri protagonist though. And now Akira has fallen in love and the story again focus on how Hime has to deal with her love being unrequited and how she can't support Akira, because of her own feelings. Trans romance? Who needs that!

Hime starts as self-centered and obnoxious, making her completely unlikable. At first she tries to solve all problems with shouting and getting angry. It might have worked when she was 12, but at this point you'd think she figured out that in order to convince people of something you need to talk to them and explain yourself. Nobody will listen and agree with you, even if you're right, when all you're doing is getting mad and insulting them. Sadly it takes whole 8 chapters for someone to finally spell it to her, so she realizes how annoying she was until that point. Before that she's simple unbearable. At first I thought she was some kind of complete moron who doesn't know anything about life and needs to be told everything in very clear and blatant terms so it'll go through her thick skull. But then I realized. People who call this manga preachy are right. Hime is a blank slate for other characters to deliver their positive messages on. She was made with sole purpose of being character who doesn't get it and needs other characters to explain it to her, so she can become better person and properly support Akira. So her entire character is completely catered to make story work, even if it makes her unrealistically stupid.

Other characters aren't much better though. We got 2 teachers who represent both extremes. One that pretends to understand Akira, but actually does everything wrong, while other is truly understanding without any prejudices. Then we have "the weird girl" who happens to completely relate to Akira, likes everything about her and immediately becomes besties pals with her. But the one that takes the cake is the delinquent girl that embodiments cliche "don't judge book by its cover". She acts like a voice of reason for Hime and of course just happens to always give perfect advices. They all are so perfectly crafted to serve the plot, they don't even feel like human beings. The only person in entire cast I actually like is Akira herself. I like how she's presented as a realistic trans character. I really wish story was focusing on her instead of that train-wreck of a mess Hime is. Also the art style with its overexaggerated expressions doesn't help with taking anything seriously either, when it's presented as some funny, comedy bits.

To address reason Hime wears boy's uniform. It has nothing to do with her being trans or anything like that. As with everything else, she tries to solve the problem with rush decisions and getting mad. If people say Akira is weird, I'll show them it's normal! So she pretends to be "the same as Akira". And if it won't work, Akira at least won't be alone. Normally I'd call it insulting again, but considering Hime's personality and her entire purpose in story is to not get it, it makes perfect sense for her to do it. It's obvious to anyone else that it's not the way to go and it won't solve anything in the long run. It's true Hime started to do it on impulse, but there is another reason for it. Maybe even the reason that was the first thing she thought of. She actually wished she was the same as Akira. She's not trans, but if she was a guy, it'd solve all her problems. She could date Akira without issues and had no reason to hid her feelings. Wearing male uniform started to make feelings she was suppressing so far emerging again and reminding her how conflicted she is.

The messages story is trying to convey are at least good. Sure, some are pretty basic, "You shouldn't be prejudice.", "You need to understand other people first.", "It's ok for 2 girls to love each other.", and something everyone should know, but there's nothing wrong with repeating them, especially for new generations. Unfortunately making Hime the main focus does a disservice to a lot of them. This scene is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. It's a very good scene and I understand why author wanted to put it in. But we should be seeing it from Akira's perspective and see how it affects her. But because they locked themselves into Hime's perspective, she has to spy on them and then insert herself into the scene in a very jarring way. Again, everything is about Hime.

Also something else I noticed. I'm not saying this manga is trying to imply it, but I feel like the whole dressing in boy's uniform have some similarities with the transtrender/otherkin thing. On the one hand you have Hime doing it for attention, so people will ignore Akira, but all it achieves is labeling Hime as weirdo and most likely Akira too. On the other you have people who don't really have any identity issues, but just want to feel special and make a big fuss about it, taking focus from people with actual struggles and lumping them together in the process. I do feel like this is a accurate summary of my issue with this manga. Hime's problems overshadowed Akira's completely.

Damn. Writing it down turned out way harder than I initially thought...

last edited at Mar 17, 2019 2:53PM

I totally forgot. Realizing story is about Hime's love for Akira gave me 2 ways to look at the title. "Kanojo" can mean "girl", but is more often used in context of "girlfriend". So the phrase can both mean "I want to become a girl" obviously referring to Akira, but also "I want to become a girlfriend" referring to Hime wanting to date Akira. "Kimi" is one of many "you"s that japanese generally don't use, but sometimes you need to, especially in manga (and manga titles) so along with "anata", it's one of the safest bets, if you don't want to sound too rude. "Boku" is "I" generally used by boys, but girls can use it too as a way to stand out or to sound more boyish. Hime doesn't use boku though. Still, considering that she thought about wanting to be a boy in order to date Akira, acts more masculine in general and is the main protagonist of the series, I'd say it refers to her. Also because it's put next to her, when title is shown for the first time. So you could understand title as something Hime is saying "We want to become "girls", you and me." but the meaning of "girl" is different for both characters.

Other way you can look at it, is that title is pretty straightforward. It's Hime simply saying she wants to become Akira's girlfriend. It applies to both interpretations, but in fiction "kimi" is often used as a way you'd address your lover and has very strong romantic implications. And even if technically both can use it, it's still word mainly used by men and in context of love story, towards their female interests. So in context of Hime being the one to say it, "Kimi" would be referring to Akira as a female love interest, while "boku" obviously referring to Hime as she is the one doing pursing, as well as being presented as definitely more masculine of the two. And look. Don't blame me for interpreting it so heavily based on binary, gender roles and such in manga about trans person. It's author giving them those stereotypical traits and using those gender specific words.

If I'm wrong about something, I'm sure plenty of people will correct me.

last edited at Mar 17, 2019 8:10PM

I'd be a lot more upset about Akira being a glorified supporting character in her own coming out story if she wasn't so incredibly uninteresting. At least Hime has a personality.

everyone else: arguing about gender and sexuality

me, a trans man: asdfghjkl Akira is so beautifulllll this manga makes me so happppppy ahh finally a manga where a trans person isn't a "trap" or "crossdresser" and I realy hope they end up togetherrrr <3<3<3 Trans gorl x protective tsundere

I'd be a lot more upset about Akira being a glorified supporting character in her own coming out story if she wasn't so incredibly uninteresting. At least Hime has a personality.

I think that's the huge oversight a bunch of people are making about this story. This isn't Akira's coming out story. This is the story of Hime's confusing and angst ridden first love.

Think about it. The story always follows Hime's point of view rather than Akira's. Whenever we are privy to the character's internal thoughts or memories it's Hime's that we see. When the two split up the story then follows Hime rather than Akira. This never really was Akira's story to begin with. As the MC's love interest she is basically the second most important character in the story, but she was never intended to be the protagonist and people should stop trying to treat her as such.

Just because Akira happens to be transgender it doesn't automatically make her the MC.

last edited at Mar 18, 2019 3:57AM

I'd be a lot more upset about Akira being a glorified supporting character in her own coming out story if she wasn't so incredibly uninteresting. At least Hime has a personality.

I think that's the huge oversight a bunch of people are making about this story. This isn't Akira's coming out story. This is the story of Hime's confusing and angst ridden first love.

Think about it. The story always follows Hime's point of view rather than Akira's. Whenever we are privy to the character's internal thoughts or memories it's Hime's that we see. When the two split up the story then follows Hime rather than Akira. This never really was Akira's story to begin with. As the MC's love interest she is basically the second most important character in the story, but she was never intended to be the protagonist and people should stop trying to treat her as such.

Just because Akira happens to be transgender it doesn't automatically make her the MC.

I meant more that this is yet another story where a trans person's coming out/transition features centrally that's more concerned with how this affects the cis people in their life than about their own experience. Yes, clearly Akira's perspective is not important to this narrative but that's kinda the issue: trans people's experiences are rarely important to the narrative either in stories centered around them or in their own lives. It's not "Akira happens to be transgender so she should automatically be the MC" it's "Akira is transgender and this entire story pivots around that fact and it'd be nice if stories like that actually had a trans MC for once."

Lol. I can't believe I didn't think of it. There's one, very obvious reason why "boku" would refer to Hime. She wears the freaking male uniform. facepalm

Meh. I'd probably get more responses, If I had post my thoughts as new chapters were coming out, as I originally wanted to, but since I ended up writing a huge wall of text again, I bet most people didn't even bother to read it. I'm used to it, so it's fine

majere posted:

At least Hime has a personality.

To be fair, it's mainly because Hime is very expressive and proactive. Also we focus on her all the time and see her inner monologue. Compare to that Akira has much less screen time, we don't know her thoughts and combined with her passive and shy personality, it make sense she didn't leave as much of impression.

majere posted:

trans people's experiences are rarely important to the narrative either in stories centered around them or in their own lives. It's not "Akira happens to be transgender so she should automatically be the MC" it's "Akira is transgender and this entire story pivots around that fact and it'd be nice if stories like that actually had a trans MC for once."

That reminded me of this little gem. A trans story from perspective of trans person about trans experience. There's 1 line that can seem confusing. I believe she meant to say gender dysphoria or some similar medical term or just put it in very clumsy way (I have gender disorder? Gender illness?). There's different group which seemed to have less accurate translation (you could tell they made mistakes, by just reading translation and despite better TS the flow of dialogue was awkward) and their version says something completely different, making me feel like first group rewrote the line to make it more trans friendly, but used some outdated term. Sadly, since I couldn't find raws to confirm what was actually said, I can't really say whatever either or neither group is correct. Even if they did rewrite it, I think it works better and doesn't detract from very good story.

last edited at Mar 18, 2019 12:39PM

Nevri posted:

That reminded me of this little gem. A trans story from perspective of trans person about trans experience.

"Gender lesion", rather made me think of her being intersex (both, or neither). Some kind of genetic variation.

But it's not really clear if she's trans.

Nya-chan posted:

But it's not really clear if she's trans.

It's clear as day.

Nya-chan posted:

But it's not really clear if she's trans.

It's clear as day.

Yeah, it's all pretty common trans experience stuff. Wonder if the author is trans, or if they just did an uncommon amount of research.

Tbh, I skimmed it because I disliked the drawing style. It's a heavy shoujo style, with next to no backgrounds and bubbles for emoticons, so I skipped to the end.

I re-read it more seriously and you're right it's clear that she's trans.

@sylke thank you so fucking much for the list!!! i'm going to put it to good use. :D

also @nya-chan i see you in the threads for basically every yuri i've read and i don't think i've ever seen you say anything positive... curious what you actually like?

Nya-chan posted:

But it's not really clear if she's trans.

It's clear as day.

Yeah, it's all pretty common trans experience stuff. Wonder if the author is trans, or if they just did an uncommon amount of research.

as a transgender person, it seems like the author is trans or has close trans friends. whatever it may be, they're presenting things in a way that has resonated with basically all of my various queer friends. trans, wlw etc.

last edited at Mar 19, 2019 11:55PM

Hime you gotta ask Akira out or something. Even if she's straight (irl I know like 0 straight trans people) keeping that buried hurts

@TransHomura
Queer sexualities are definitely more common among trans-people compared to cis (which I find pretty interesting), but straight trans-people do definitely exist. I know a few. x)

last edited at Mar 22, 2019 10:35AM

@TransHomura
Queer sexualities are definitely more common among trans-people compared to cis (which I find pretty interesting), but straight trans-people do definitely exist. I know a few. x)

I know I never said they don't exist

runrin posted:

@sylke thank you so fucking much for the list!!! i'm going to put it to good use. :D

also @nya-chan i see you in the threads for basically every yuri i've read and i don't think i've ever seen you say anything positive... curious what you actually like?

I always have a soft spot for the first yuris I read, like Sasameki Koto and Girl Friends. I wouldn't say they are the best ever, but they make you care for the characters. That's basically my compass.

I read tons of books and manga and my appreciation of what I read is whether I cared for the story or the characters. It's entirely subjective obviously. I rate the manga I read good, forgettable and bad. Actually, there are very few manga I'd call bad, but a lot more I'd call forgettable or a waste of paper/pixels. There's one thing I dislike when I read something is when the author takes their reader for a cretin/horny teenage boy, or obviously didn't put any effort in the plot and just went for the easy path, with a few bells to give the illusion it's not the same old plot.

Ano Kiss, for example, is what I'd call forgettable. It's not bad and the drawing is nice, but I actually couldn't really care about Yurine's or Ayaka's woes, because the ending ware foreordained and their motivations were mundane ("I'm bored", "I want to be acknowledged by my mother"...). The digressions about side characters didn't help.

Giniro no genders is trying very hard to be dramatic and didactic, but it shows its true colors with the focus on the sexual aspect of what it talks about. It begins to veer toward being somewhat "bad" in my opinion.

Citrus could have been something, but the way the author developed Yuzu and Mei killed it. They failed to be attaching characters and actually people started to care more about the side characters, like Matsuri and Harumin.

Most the of comedy yuri is pretty forgettable because the author doesn't want you to take the characters seriously. Mochi au Lait's production is funny, but nothing to write home about. Yuru Yuri is funny, but it will never go anywhere. Kodama Naoko's work start strong, but then just peter out. Tamamusi's works are cute and funny, but it stops there. Even Kase-san, which is really cute, leaves me with feeling of boredom.

It's really hard to keep a manga being good until the end and making unforgettable characters.

When I criticize a manga, it's because it failed at living up to my expectations.

The ones I consider "bad" are usually the ones with too much gratuitous sex and fluids. Even "Happy End" isn't bad. Just disappointing.

Some of my favorites manga (with some yuri in it, because I like non yuri ones too) are:

Sasameki Koto
Hanjuku Joshi (and almost everything by Morishima Akiko)
Prism
Musume no Iede
Bokura no Hentai (though there's no yuri)
My Unrequited Love
Qualia the purple
Takemiya Jin's works (they are tough to love, but they don't leave indifferent)
Amano Shuninta's works (same as above)

And many more..

last edited at Mar 22, 2019 2:49PM