Maybe the manga simply should have been about three teen girls figuring out teen life and then ultimately staying friends as they become adults and their paths diverge ...

I can see some people will go rage with this endgame. Lol.

In my opinion, Sayaka's love for Touko is way more grounded than Yuu's. Sayaka loved both sides of Touko, while Yuu loved changing Touko into the person she thinks Touko should be (which happens to be healthier for Touko herself, but it might very well not have been). I mean, if Touko had NOT changed, would Yuu be satisfied? Touko was a bit like a "project" for Yuu, and those relationships usually don't turn out great if the project target doesn't change enough.

And I know it won't happen because YuuxTouko are the "official pairing" and readers would rage, but in a real-life scenario, it would be entirely possible for Touko to pick Sayaka since Sayaka has experienced her changing and accepted both sides, without actively pushing her to change. For someone who longs for deep acceptance, isn't that the ideal kind of partner?

Short answer: no, it is not. Your whole argument sounds like a classic case of Second-Lead Syndrome. Yuu didn’t want Touko to change as a “project” or in order to mold a girlfriend who was more to her liking—it was because she saw the person she loved locked into a false and self-destructive self-image and heading for a deep emotional crisis (the ending of the play initially being the ending of Touko’s reason for living as she had been). Yuu, as Sayaka acknowledged at the time, was the one who had the courage to do something about it.

Of course Touko was a project to Yuu, though not linked to wanting to make her a girlfriend. Yuu was unsatisfied with an aspect of Touko: that she hated herself and was being uber perfectionist because of it. Just because in this particular instance Touko's problem is something that readers also consider a problem, doesn't mean that what Yuu did wasn't what a lot of other people do and that in other contexts would be considered bad: they see a person, they don't like an aspect of that person, and so they push to change that person into "improving" to whatever they consider is The Right Thing (in this case, Touko no longer hating herself).

But just to play devil's advocate here, assume the story was less simplistic than it is. What if at this phase of Touko's life, the drive to be perfect was actually useful no matter the source of it? Maybe without it, she would be just some ordinary girl who doesn't study and is shy and lazy, which would have repercussions for her future. One cannot deny that hating herself has caused her at least two good consequences: she pushed her shyness as a child aside and became a super competent person who is a student council president, and now is also good at acting which is something she genuinely likes.

So I'm not saying Yuu didn't have good intentions, but I separate between intentions, consequences and timing. If Yuu had met Touko earlier, ironically she might well have ruined the awesome person Touko became. We like Yuu because she changed Touko from being self-hating at the right time, but still, I can't help but feel uneasy about the fact she tried to change Touko at all.

The narrative problem isn’t just that Yuu and Touko are “official”—it’s that the basis of the initial TxY relationship has always been potentially toxic and highly manipulative on Touko’s part, and a choice for the supposedly “better” Sayaka retroactively makes the whole thing a version of, “Say, Yuu, thanks a bunch for nudging me into greater mental health—now I see that Sayaka is the one for me! Oh, and all that stuff about me being in love with you? Turns out that was kinda bullshit. My bad! But hey, friends? Stay in touch!”

Yeah so as usual a manga author can't give an original ending to a story because readers gonna rage. I get it. Also I don't think that's how one would interpret such an ending; Touko and Yuu could keep being friends, Yuu could go on to have a relationship with someone where there wasn't a layer of toxicity in the first place, and Sayaka could end up with Touko (or not) due to Touko craving for acceptance. The person who saves you is not always the person you end up with :P

Maybe the manga simply should have been about three teen girls figuring out teen life and then ultimately staying friends as they become adults and their paths diverge ...

I can see some people will go rage with this endgame. Lol.

I wouldn’t say this ending is entirely off the table, and if it were done as well as everything else has been done in this series, it could be a very acceptable resolution.

That said, some recent examples ahem, Citrus suggest that a lot of readers only care about the ultimate shipping outcome and don’t really give much of a shit about how the story gets there. So that would certainly be a problem for them.

My own preferred ending involves Touko and Yuu naked on a hot springs vacation, with Sayaka (something something something) happy elsewhere (YMMV).

But so far I have trusted this author to tell the story she wants to tell and have not been disappointed, so I’m not going to stop now.

@matsuri_wins—as usual, you’re talking about the internal world of the story as if the characters are real people, while I’m talking about the characters in relation to story construction. This is not a swervy narrative— everything is set up methodically and often quite symmetrically. The story you’re imagining is not an implausible or ridiculous one, but it’s not the story that’s been told so far, nor is there much indication that it’s going to be the one going forward.

last edited at Jan 2, 2019 9:01AM

Yeah, I know -- the problem with most of these yuri stories I've read (with the notable exceptions of NTR, WDTFS and Wish You Were Gone) is that purely as stories, they just aren't very good due to being predictable and super simplistic (usually the execution t isn't good either, BiY being an exception). So in order to have fun, I compare the plot with the real world :P

(YMMV).

English, please.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/ymmv

shojie07 posted:

Maybe the manga simply should have been about three teen girls figuring out teen life and then ultimately staying friends as they become adults and their paths diverge ...

I can see some people will go rage with this endgame. Lol.

Isn't that Nanashi no Asterism?

I'll be honest, every comment I see against the Sayaka x Touko pairing makes me wish they would get together more. Maybe I'm just very attached to Sayaka since she's my favorite character, but man, hearing some of y'all be so against the relationship is sure annoying.

But just to play devil's advocate here, assume the story was less simplistic than it is. What if at this phase of Touko's life, the drive to be perfect was actually useful no matter the source of it? Maybe without it, she would be just some ordinary girl who doesn't study and is shy and lazy, which would have repercussions for her future. One cannot deny that hating herself has caused her at least two good consequences: she pushed her shyness as a child aside and became a super competent person who is a student council president, and now is also good at acting which is something she genuinely likes.

So I'm not saying Yuu didn't have good intentions, but I separate between intentions, consequences and timing. If Yuu had met Touko earlier, ironically she might well have ruined the awesome person Touko became. We like Yuu because she changed Touko from being self-hating at the right time, but still, I can't help but feel uneasy about the fact she tried to change Touko at all.

Funny thing is, Touko's Onee-chan Mio really was a bit lazy and averse to studying, so the real Touko is closer to the real Mio than she initially thought. And this fake perfect mask Touko put on... well, she didn't know Mio's fake perfect mask was a fake perfect mask, so even though she's faking it and Mio faked it, Touko ended up being like Mio in more ways than she initially knew. I guess it's why the series' Japanese title "Yagate, Kimi ni Naru" can be translated "eventually, you will become yourself".

However! After seeing the last episode, I think Nakatani's implying Touko would've killed herself after the play if Yuu never showed up. I can't be sure about this, but the way she says "I'll finish this play... and then what?" and then the shot of the dead cicada wings, combined with Touko stepping in front of that train and the "to the final destination" sign... I'm not sure Touko successfully becomes awesome and perfect whether Yuu appears or not.

Maybe the manga simply should have been about three teen girls figuring out teen life and then ultimately staying friends as they become adults and their paths diverge ...

Honestly, it's been in the back of my mind for a long time that Touko and Yuu could end up being only friends. Until Yuu's big confession, I really wondered if Yuu really was never in love with Touko. I was poisoned by the ridiculous "asexual" discussion in the early chapters.

Personally, while I do like the main cast and they're all nice and well-written, none of them really captured my imagination like [see my display picture] so I won't feel quite as burned by a "platonic friends" or Touko x Sayaka ending as what happened in that other show. Actually, now that I think about it, a Touko suicide ending would hurt, not that that would actually happen, right?

last edited at Jan 2, 2019 11:12AM

I'll be honest, every comment I see against the Sayaka x Touko pairing makes me wish they would get together more. Maybe I'm just very attached to Sayaka since she's my favorite character, but man, hearing some of y'all be so against the relationship is sure annoying.

I don’t know how much clearer this can be stated—almost everybody I’ve read here actually likes Sayaka very much as a character. But we’re not watching a group of people in real life try to decide who to date, we’re experiencing a work of narrative art in progress. I certainly am not “against the relationship” because I dislike or have something against Sayaka as an imaginary person—I think she’s great, a real creative accomplishment by the author when compared to characters who play a similar role in other stories.

But Touko deciding to date Sayaka (at least at this point in a serialization with an uncertain end date) would throw off the whole thematic structure of the story to date, which began and so far remains the story of Touko and Yuu. Sayaka has played a significant but basically peripheral role in the story up to now, a story which has worked hard to carefully set up its developments, one of which (again, so far) is not Sayaka and Touko getting together in the end.

(And, as I mentioned, to suddenly take up with Sayaka at this point has negative implications for Touko’s previous treatment of Yuu in their relationship—another place I don’t think the story wants to go.)

If someone wants to read stories primarily as wish-fullfilment exercises about imaginary people, that’s certainly their right. But there are other modes of reading besides that.

shojie07 posted:

Maybe the manga simply should have been about three teen girls figuring out teen life and then ultimately staying friends as they become adults and their paths diverge ...

I can see some people will go rage with this endgame. Lol.

Isn't that Nanashi no Asterism?

Asterism was quite messy towards the end, wasn't it?

I'd say Kuzu no Honkai would be a better example of that kind of story.

Sayaka is a cool character, just by how she was portrayed in the chapters (has her flaws too but not a sneaky third main character; she's very honorable character; I usually hate love triangles) that I expected Sayaka to confess and she'll accept that they can just be friends; she probably subconsciously knows too and Touko/Yuu relationship. That's how the author's style feel like; she has the magical way of "calmly" resolving everything.

Oh, I remember. Yuu also knows about Sayaka loving Touko so I wonder if Yuu has thought about Sayaka confessing?

last edited at Jan 2, 2019 11:35AM

Honestly, it's been in the back of my mind for a long time that Touko and Yuu could end up being only friends. Until Yuu's big confession, I really wondered if Yuu really was never in love with Touko. I was poisoned by the ridiculous "asexual" discussion in the early chapters.

I personally don't see sexual chemistry between them. But maybe that's because in my opinion Yuu is still too much like a child in appearance. I mean, if we are to take what was shown as the only kisses that ever happened, it's not like it was ever steamy or anything, particularly on Touko's end. It's more as if Touko subconsciously attached to Yuu in order to have someone pull her out of her self-destructive path.

last edited at Jan 2, 2019 11:37AM

Honestly, it's been in the back of my mind for a long time that Touko and Yuu could end up being only friends. Until Yuu's big confession, I really wondered if Yuu really was never in love with Touko. I was poisoned by the ridiculous "asexual" discussion in the early chapters.

I personally don't see sexual chemistry between them. But maybe that's because in my opinion Yuu is still too much like a child.

That's definitely a possibility since it'll also fit the author's style and it's the easier way to end the story but I would dread it...I hope the author will have a more creative happy ending for Yuu/Touko though!

Honestly, it's been in the back of my mind for a long time that Touko and Yuu could end up being only friends. Until Yuu's big confession, I really wondered if Yuu really was never in love with Touko. I was poisoned by the ridiculous "asexual" discussion in the early chapters.

I personally don't see sexual chemistry between them.

I would just say that their physical encounters have always been fraught (and restricted) by the peculiar terms of their relationship—Touko was wary of pushing things too far too fast for fear of alienating Yuu by violating those basic terms. And Yuu’s invitation to Touko (what I have facetiously called the “why don’t you come over and take advantage of me?” incident) was also the occasion for Touko's (fairly sinister) warning to Yuu not to fall in love with her.

So two-way sexual chemistry has actually been placed out of bounds by the story (until Touko gets her f****ing head screwed on straight, of course).

Honestly, it's been in the back of my mind for a long time that Touko and Yuu could end up being only friends. Until Yuu's big confession, I really wondered if Yuu really was never in love with Touko. I was poisoned by the ridiculous "asexual" discussion in the early chapters.

I personally don't see sexual chemistry between them. But maybe that's because in my opinion Yuu is still too much like a child in appearance. I mean, if we are to take what was shown as the only kisses that ever happened, it's not like it was ever steamy or anything, particularly on Touko's end. It's more as if Touko subconsciously attached to Yuu in order to have someone pull her out of her self-destructive path.

I thought that part where they were french kissing in the storage was very hot with even Yuu asking for more because it feels really good. specially in the anime.

Way I took that hallucination where little Sayaka picked up little Touko was that it was a moment of personal integration for Touko.

Just wants to point out that this scene is specifically a reference back to this

Touko's psychological development was partially arrested when her sister died. She has lived both as a "fake" Touko who has grown up and a little Touko that has just been sitting in the dark, mourning and wishing she had not lost her sister and blaming herself. Going through the play allowed Touko to leave her self-destructive feelings behind, but didn't fix the inner conflict completely.

When Sayaka bluntly refuses to entertain her non-sense about "don't confess, because I'm a bad person" and just goes through with it like a confident adult, she also takes that little kid in her arms and tells her that it's ok to be a complete Touko. She has her back and she won't back out or run away from her. While Touko and Sayaka experience a different thing here (both have their own perceptions about it), it's a powerful moment for the both of them regardless.

While I agree that this chapter does further resolve Touko's inner identity conflict, it has less to do with Touko learning to be her complete self (tho I'm not dismissing your reading of that specific scene since it's valid, just wants to elaborate on the significance of this chapter to the plot moving forwards). The thing is Yuu has already told Touko almost the exact same thing in ch 28. Touko has already reached the epiphany that she can be herself, both the weak and perfect sides, comfortably in front of others since the event of the play thanks to Yuu (refer back to ch 32). In other words, Touko has learned about self-love (or started to). What Sayaka brought to the table in this chapter is placing this same concept in the context of romantic love for someone else. Since what Touko is struggling with right now is the idea that love is conditional and that people can only love an image of another person--which will result in them falling out of love with that person if that image doesn't live up to expectations or if it changes (which is why she told Sayaka "I am not who you expect me to be"). And this is exactly her current conflict with Yuu. She thinks she can't answer Yuu's feelings because Yuu is no longer "the girl who can't fall in love with her." Obviously, this logic is whack and it conflicts with how she actually feels towards Yuu since she does love her still. Sayaka telling Touko that she loves "everything" about her will challenge this view and help her come to the point where she can also say the same about Yuu.

Tldr Sayaka just gave Touko an important romantic advice. Thanks Sayaka and also RIP.

Yes. Agreed! Both Touko and Sayaka moved forward. Next chapter could be about Yuu moving forward or Touko's perspective on Sayaka's confession or maybe half and half....oh is it ending soon? Is there a chance for volume 8?

Way I took that hallucination where little Sayaka picked up little Touko was that it was a moment of personal integration for Touko.

Just wants to point out that this scene is specifically a reference back to this

Touko's psychological development was partially arrested when her sister died. She has lived both as a "fake" Touko who has grown up and a little Touko that has just been sitting in the dark, mourning and wishing she had not lost her sister and blaming herself. Going through the play allowed Touko to leave her self-destructive feelings behind, but didn't fix the inner conflict completely.

When Sayaka bluntly refuses to entertain her non-sense about "don't confess, because I'm a bad person" and just goes through with it like a confident adult, she also takes that little kid in her arms and tells her that it's ok to be a complete Touko. She has her back and she won't back out or run away from her. While Touko and Sayaka experience a different thing here (both have their own perceptions about it), it's a powerful moment for the both of them regardless.

While I agree that this chapter does further resolve Touko's inner identity conflict, it has less to do with Touko learning to be her complete self (tho I'm not dismissing your reading of that specific scene since it's valid, just wants to elaborate on the significance of this chapter to the plot moving forwards). The thing is Yuu has already told Touko almost the exact same thing in ch 28. Touko has already reached the epiphany that she can be herself, both the weak and perfect sides, comfortably in front of others since the event of the play thanks to Yuu (refer back to ch 32). In other words, Touko has learned about self-love (or started to). What Sayaka brought to the table in this chapter is placing this same concept in the context of romantic love for someone else. Since what Touko is struggling with right now is the idea that love is conditional and that people can only love an image of another person--which will result in them falling out of love with that person if that image doesn't live up to expectations or if it changes (which is why she told Sayaka "I am not who you expect me to be"). And this is exactly her current conflict with Yuu. She thinks she can't answer Yuu's feelings because Yuu is no longer "the girl who can't fall in love with her." Obviously, this logic is whack and it conflicts with how she actually feels towards Yuu since she does love her still. Sayaka telling Touko that she loves "everything" about her will challenge this view and help her come to the point where she can also say the same about Yuu.

Tldr Sayaka just gave Touko an important romantic advice. Thanks Sayaka and also RIP.

Yes. Agreed! Both Touko and Sayaka moved forward. Next chapter could be about Yuu moving forward or Touko's perspective on Sayaka's confession or maybe half and half....oh is it ending soon? Is there a chance for volume 8?

I think volume 8 is basically guaranteed, but things are slowly coming to a close.

I think everyone's view about Yuu and Sayaka is a bit different depending on personal opinion/experience.

I see Yuu as selfless to go help out Touko out of her mental state even though she knows that Touko may not need her anymore; that she's no longer "special" to Touko out of love (yes Yuu did start out kind of just being dragged along, but once she figured out she's in love, she made a decision about it and the result was just harder to accept then she initially thought that even if she got rejected she'd still be able to stay by Touko's side). As a partner, she picked the harder choice but knowing it'll help Touko with self love. And remember that Yuu is an indecisive starter but once a decision is made she'll see it through; that to me is she's a fighter and has a confident personality just that she's not an ambitious person so doesn't have things she like so gave other the feeling that she's a pushover but really she just doesn't really care either way (if it makes you happy and I've got nothing better to do, why not?)

I see Sayaka as a more of a conflict free type and is very much aware of her own flaws and personality. She tries to not cause friction in relationships and in this case she waited until better chances with Touko; aka no conflict to have the courage to confess. That's also a step forward but she definitely didn't take as much a risk as Yuu did. As a friend/support Sayaka is a lovable character. But as a lover, she's someone who doesn't take the initiative in relationships and does not fight for love (she is moving forward now though) which means a more passive role like the role she played as the Play's girlfriend. She'll spoil you and cushion you from reality but then you'll still have to go out and figure out how to problem solve yourself (Whereas I feel Yuu will try to help you out both at home and out there in the world).

last edited at Jan 2, 2019 12:35PM

On another note, I have actually watched a video, and, depending on how you interpret one of the sentences in which they quote something Nakatani said in an interview (something along the lines of "I want that both Yuu and Touko end happy", albeit my memory tends to be poor for most things, so I may have warped the sentence), it would seem as if even Nakatani hinted us that it's gonna be a Yuu x Touko endgame. More importantly, Nakatani says that the end goal of YagaKimi is to answer the question "What is love?".

everyone turns on Haddaway

On another note, I have actually watched a video, and, depending on how you interpret one of the sentences in which they quote something Nakatani said in an interview (something along the lines of "I want that both Yuu and Touko end happy", albeit my memory tends to be poor for most things, so I may have warped the sentence), it would seem as if even Nakatani hinted us that it's gonna be a Yuu x Touko endgame. More importantly, Nakatani says that the end goal of YagaKimi is to answer the question "What is love?".

Yea, depending on the interpretation; even if they're not together they both learned/grew past their flaw (Yuu on love, Touko on her past/future), that could have be happy end in the author's opinion too; everyone close friends in the end. Of course I'm leaning for the more literal "end happy".

last edited at Jan 2, 2019 12:52PM

I'll be honest, every comment I see against the Sayaka x Touko pairing makes me wish they would get together more. Maybe I'm just very attached to Sayaka since she's my favorite character, but man, hearing some of y'all be so against the relationship is sure annoying.

Personally I'm so against it because if this DOES happen then Touko not only used Yuu but used her in a totally tragic way where Yuu will have it thrown in her face day after day that the person that used her is now dating not only someone else, but someone that she has known and has in the past (several times) talked down to Yuu like she was Touko's play thing and not worthy of respect (the dismissive "I'll take care of her like I always have" at the mini mart comes to mind). It will also (in my mind) cheapen every bit of personal and relational development that went on between Yuu and Touko because it will NEVER confront Touko's statement that she "can't love anyone that love's something she hates."

I'll be honest, every comment I see against the Sayaka x Touko pairing makes me wish they would get together more. Maybe I'm just very attached to Sayaka since she's my favorite character, but man, hearing some of y'all be so against the relationship is sure annoying.

Personally I'm so against it because if this DOES happen then Touko not only used Yuu but used her in a totally tragic way where Yuu will have it thrown in her face day after day that the person that used her is now dating not only someone else, but someone that she has known and has in the past (several times) talked down to Yuu like she was Touko's play thing and not worthy of respect (the dismissive "I'll take care of her like I always have" at the mini mart comes to mind). It will also (in my mind) cheapen every bit of personal and relational development that went on between Yuu and Touko because it will NEVER confront Touko's statement that she "can't love anyone that love's something she hates."

I couldn't agree more with you, since I've been watching their relationship until now, the more senpai says not to love her back the more I feel yuu's feelings, and if Toukou decided to date with Sayaka in the end, I hope Yuu would find the right one who really care about her feelings not like Touko :c

On another note, I have actually watched a video, and, depending on how you interpret one of the sentences in which they quote something Nakatani said in an interview (something along the lines of "I want that both Yuu and Touko end happy", albeit my memory tends to be poor for most things, so I may have warped the sentence), it would seem as if even Nakatani hinted us that it's gonna be a Yuu x Touko endgame. More importantly, Nakatani says that the end goal of YagaKimi is to answer the question "What is love?".

Yea, depending on the interpretation; even if they're not together they both learned/grew past their flaw (Yuu on love, Touko on her past/future), that could have be happy end in the author's opinion too; everyone close friends in the end. Of course I'm leaning for the more literal "end happy".

This makes sense, tho I still am not satisfied uwu it will be more like true ending that everyone knows what love is, and being friends at the end :v huuuuh love for 2 girls is so difficult

On another note, I have actually watched a video, and, depending on how you interpret one of the sentences in which they quote something Nakatani said in an interview (something along the lines of "I want that both Yuu and Touko end happy", albeit my memory tends to be poor for most things, so I may have warped the sentence), it would seem as if even Nakatani hinted us that it's gonna be a Yuu x Touko endgame. More importantly, Nakatani says that the end goal of YagaKimi is to answer the question "What is love?".

Yea, depending on the interpretation; even if they're not together they both learned/grew past their flaw (Yuu on love, Touko on her past/future), that could have be happy end in the author's opinion too; everyone close friends in the end. Of course I'm leaning for the more literal "end happy".

This makes sense, tho I still am not satisfied uwu it will be more like true ending that everyone knows what love is, and being friends at the end :v huuuuh love for 2 girls is so difficult

Ah, and I just thought if the goal is "what is love?" Touko: self love, Sayaka: more than best friend but not lover, You: first love/youth, then the rest cast on asexual, familial, etc.
Ur then not so bright outlook....>~<