I wouldn't be so sure that Touko would reject Sayaka after she said "You love everything?" That to me was a huge hint that maybe Touko won't reject Sayaka right away.

I'm scared to see how this will turn out and i really hope she picks yuu and Sayaka can stay her friend

I like Sayaka, and I admired her for having guts to tell her feelings for Touko after keeping it long. I feel she deserves it at least. But, saying she’s a good match just because they are seem equal in a sense is so wrong. Yes, she’s been a good sidekick and a best friend for Touko, but keeping silent about Touko’s pretension, acting perfect like her sister is a big mistake for Sayaka’s part. It is a big let down and a flaw of her for me, as a reader, to think she’s better as Touko’s partner. This is why in some sort, Touko never tried to open up “that” side of her to Sayaka despite them being best friends. Because, Touko knows Sayaka only needs her to be perfect. Sayaka said she knows Touko, better, but she doesn’t know at all what Touko really needs for herself... to change. To overcome self hatred.

That’s why Yuu is way too good than her. Unlike Sayaka who just waited, Yuu took action genuinely for Touko’s sake. Yuu didn’t cow to step up and extended her hands to the “person” that Touko tried to hid first even they only met for months. Yuu accepted all her contradictions. Yuu accepted who Touko is— both sides. Everything of her. Even though, this is what Sayaka is up doing now, she was late.

Sadly, Touko at the moment is still clouded by confusion and wrong judgment of love that it is conditional. But, rather than thinking of Touko accepting Sayaka’s confession, I do think it is a way of telling her to open her goddamn eyes— if Sayaka can love all of her, it is hell sure that Yuu can.

Yes, she might feel sorry for Sayaka, but Touko loves Yuu. I wouldn’t be surprised if the next chapter would reveal Touko’s point of view while in Kyoto trip, and all she was thinking is Yuu.

But hey, Sayaka. I’m happy you’re free of your burden, hiding your feelings from Touko.

last edited at Jan 2, 2019 2:09AM

I would be pissed if Touko said yes to Sayaka when she can't even answer Yuu

I was actually reading this from the beginning, caught up today and was pretty surprised that chapter 36 was not the latest chapter...

I absolutely loathe love triangles but the author writes this so naturally with not a lot of drama shoved in. Which is weird because this is the most dramatic this manga has gotten at this point but it doesnt ruin anything for me. I just love all these characters so much and want to see them happy. Including Sayaka. I actually was rooting for her from the beginning because I just thought she looked better with Touko. No offense to Yuu but she looked too immature next to Sayaka but she has certainly grown on me now. I just hope Sayaka finds happiness one day because I know she wont with Touko.

At this point, I'm not as certain that the manga is close to the end as I once was...

kanonchan posted:

I would be pissed if Touko said yes to Sayaka when she can't even answer Yuu

^This. It would be unfair to Yuu.

But it doesn't look like it's going that way. She's probably going to reject Sayaka too, because she'll be wracked with guilt and under the impression that they fell in love with a fake.

I just hope this manga doesn't end with a graduation style ending (with characters separating and being on their merry way), or an open ending.

I like my closures.

last edited at Jan 2, 2019 3:44AM

This chapter and most likely the next are the most exciting chapters for me. Kinda prefer the pacing in the manga and nuances much more than the anime.

Way I took that hallucination where little Sayaka picked up little Touko was that it was a moment of personal integration for Touko.

Just wants to point out that this scene is specifically a reference back to this

A lot of people claiming Sayaka doesn't have all the pieces are missing crucial details like this one, I feel. Nakatani seems to be way too subtle for a lot of people with details like this.

Way I took that hallucination where little Sayaka picked up little Touko was that it was a moment of personal integration for Touko.

Just wants to point out that this scene is specifically a reference back to this

A lot of people claiming Sayaka doesn't have all the pieces are missing crucial details like this one, I feel. Nakatani seems to be way too subtle for a lot of people with details like this.

+1
That's some throwback from chapter 37 to 11.

A lot of people claiming Sayaka doesn't have all the pieces are missing crucial details like this one, I feel. Nakatani seems to be way too subtle for a lot of people with details like this.

...more like not everyone re-reads the series regularly and hence remembers every detail and visual device from circa four volumes, forty chapters and three years ago... ' -')

A lot of people claiming Sayaka doesn't have all the pieces are missing crucial details like this one, I feel. Nakatani seems to be way too subtle for a lot of people with details like this.

That's a good catch. Still, Sayaka is not aware of the whole picture. She knows about Touko's weak side, and Touko's past. But there is no evidence that would suggest she knows the specifics of the relationship between Touko and Yuu, or the detailed specifics of Touko's mental hangups. Sayaka has good instincts, she did her homework on Touko's past, and she plays close attention to Touko, but she can't literally read minds, and she can't see what Touko and Yuu do when she's not around.

Goodness gracious. So in order to meet Touko's dating standards, you have to not only promise never to fall in love with her, but also have her entire brain downloaded.

Personally, I think Sayaka still has Touko on a pedestal. She's saying she loves her no matter what, even after seeing all of her sides. But I don't think Sayaka has seen all of Touko's sides. I think she's just now beginning to see what type of person Touko truly is, but she's pushed this love of hers for so long, that she's afraid to back out of the hand and instead pushes all in.

I don't think Sayaka has had Touko on a pedestal for a long time now, since she knows the truth about Touko's personality. She had simply been afraid of being rejected and used Touko's personality as an excuse to not confess.

Until Sayaka can come to terms with her past, she'll never really be able to move on. Sayaka is in need of her own personal growth. And while I commend her for confessing, and she is making attempts at being honest with herself, I think she needs a deeper self reflection as to what she truly wants and desires.

Sayaka's confession and then being joyful about it IS her definitive proof of growth and coming to terms with the past. She now knows she is a lesbian, through her process of talking to the adult couple; and she was finally able to confront her fear of rejection, which she had acquired because of her first relationship turning sour. What else do you want?

In my opinion, Sayaka's love for Touko is way more grounded than Yuu's. Sayaka loved both sides of Touko, while Yuu loved changing Touko into the person she thinks Touko should be (which happens to be healthier for Touko herself, but it might very well not have been). I mean, if Touko had NOT changed, would Yuu be satisfied? Touko was a bit like a "project" for Yuu, and those relationships usually don't turn out great if the project target doesn't change enough.

And I know it won't happen because YuuxTouko are the "official pairing" and readers would rage, but in a real-life scenario, it would be entirely possible for Touko to pick Sayaka since Sayaka has experienced her changing and accepted both sides, without actively pushing her to change. For someone who longs for deep acceptance, isn't that the ideal kind of partner?

last edited at Jan 2, 2019 5:54AM

Oh god my heart is not ready for all this shit

In my opinion, Sayaka's love for Touko is way more grounded than Yuu's. Sayaka loved both sides of Touko, while Yuu loved changing Touko into the person she thinks Touko should be (which happens to be healthier for Touko herself, but it might very well not have been). I mean, if Touko had NOT changed, would Yuu be satisfied? Touko was a bit like a "project" for Yuu, and those relationships usually don't turn out great if the project target doesn't change enough.

And I know it won't happen because YuuxTouko are the "official pairing" and readers would rage, but in a real-life scenario, it would be entirely possible for Touko to pick Sayaka since Sayaka has experienced her changing and accepted both sides, without actively pushing her to change. For someone who longs for deep acceptance, isn't that the ideal kind of partner?

Short answer: no, it is not. Your whole argument sounds like a classic case of Second-Lead Syndrome. Yuu didn’t want Touko to change as a “project” or in order to mold a girlfriend who was more to her liking—it was because she saw the person she loved locked into a false and self-destructive self-image and heading for a deep emotional crisis (the ending of the play initially being the ending of Touko’s reason for living as she had been). Yuu, as Sayaka acknowledged at the time, was the one who had the courage to do something about it.

Sayaka didn’t really know “both sides” of Touko, or rather, she was aware that Touko wasn’t as perfect as she tried to seem, but she had only a general idea of exactly how psychologically warped and fragile Touko could be—she knew there was a mask, but she hadn’t been shown exactly what was behind it.

The narrative problem isn’t just that Yuu and Touko are “official”—it’s that the basis of the initial TxY relationship has always been potentially toxic and highly manipulative on Touko’s part, and a choice for the supposedly “better” Sayaka retroactively makes the whole thing a version of, “Say, Yuu, thanks a bunch for nudging me into greater mental health—now I see that Sayaka is the one for me! Oh, and all that stuff about me being in love with you? Turns out that was kinda bullshit. My bad! But hey, friends? Stay in touch!”

Blastaar posted:

“Say, Yuu, thanks a bunch for nudging me into greater mental health—now I see that Sayaka is the one for me! Oh, and all that stuff about me being in love with you? Turns out that was kinda bullshit. My bad! But hey, friends? Stay in touch!”

My pervert side kinda wants it to go that way, just so I can watch this comment section go nuclear.

I'm proud of Sayaka! G'wan lass!

Well, I finally read all what I haven't read on the end of page 183 and the pages 184-6 of this thread, and many posts were influencing my own view of this entire situation, so many of my arguments may just seem (and some of them, I admit, are) copy - paste of other's arguments but... here it goes...
Now, it does seem to me that Sayaka truly didn't (and still doesn't) know the full extent of the things Touko is hiding behind her mask. She, indeed, doesn't know what Touko and Yuu are doing when she isn't around, and, more importantly, she doesn't know a lot of Touko’s internal issues, the most important of which are her twisted outlook of love and her self-loathing. That's why the "I love everything about you." line has equal possibility to be problematic as it has to he helpful. Sure, maybe, together with all the other events in the manga (most especially, the recent ones (recent, as in, since shortly before the play)) it may help Touko eventually and finally get out of those internal issues (which she is currently in the slow and gradual process of), or (more unlikely, but still possible) Touko might consider this as an argument to reinforce everything about her current self, including those two big mental burdens she basically put on herself. I find it unlikely that Touko would accept Sayaka, but hopefully this won't result in a complete fall out (translation: hopefully, they'll stay friends). However, I find the situation with Yuu more complex. Indeed, Touko did kinda force an agreement that guaranteed that the relationship between the two main protagonists would have a layer of toxicity to it (kinda reminds me of the diplomatic ties between Pextoglazia and Ordica in the Famana series), but Yuu did influence and push for changes in Touko. But, just like it was said earlier, this wasn't because Yuu wanted to mold Touko into a perfect girlfriend for herself, but because she saw how Touko’s twisted outlook on love and her self-loathing are self-destructive and will just needlessly cause Touko to suffer. Yet, because of many of the things I mentioned thus far in the post, needless suffering was inflicted on both Yuu and Touko. Touko may have thought (and part of her may still think) that being a copy of her late older sister would be her perfect self, but I think otherwise. Most of her old self (including both the supposedly "perfect" and the hidden parts), the influences she had from others throughout the manga would probably be close to a "perfect" Touko, if she were to change her perception of love (as it being inherently conditional, which it's not), and if she were to ditch that masochism (although, I can't help but think about how hypocritical it is of me to say she needs to ditch that masochism, given that I have trouble completely ditching my own). Honestly, for Yuu and Touko, I can't really see a more plausible ending than, after a lot of struggling, being together (not to say that the other possibilities are implausible, it's just that I see them as far less likely). As for Sayaka... well... just as I said in a previous post... I and people like me, who ship Touko and Yuu, but also want Sayaka to be happy, can only hope that the girl from the first part of the spin-off makes an appearance. This, unfortunately, seems incredibly unlikely, so, maybe (and much more likely), we would just have to deal with the fact that there'll be a sad, alone Sayaka at the end. T-T

last edited at Jan 2, 2019 8:01AM

There is no foreseeable scenario in which this ends well for Sayaka.
Yuu already stole those lips, and already confessed her love. Sayaka's shooting for second place in every aspect without even realizing.
Sayaka is going to get the heartbreak she always had coming. Yuu has had too much development and focus for her arc to come up empty.
Win or lose, Yuu already took all the important firsts.

That’s why Yuu is way too good than her. Unlike Sayaka who just waited, Yuu took action genuinely for Touko’s sake. Yuu didn’t cow to step up and extended her hands to the “person” that Touko tried to hid first even they only met for months. Yuu accepted all her contradictions. Yuu accepted who Touko is— both sides. Everything of her. Even though, this is what Sayaka is up doing now, she was late.

You almost sound like you think of Sayaka as an opportunist. Let's not disregard the fact that Sayaka has been supporting Touko all along in her goal of becoming her perfect self. She admires Touko's perseverance in achieving her ideals, that's what she loves about her (Ch. 12) and in that, she's supported her love amply. Everyone has their own opinion of what's best for their loved ones, Sayaka simply had hers.

Her only major flaw I find worth mentioning is that she was reluctant to pry into Touko's personal matters, in fear of ruining their relationship and never considering what lies past that initial turbulence might be something better for both of them. However, whatever she found out about Touko on her own, she did accept. She didn't just fall out of love after learning of Touko's meek and unreliable side. She doesn't seem to know Touko hates herself (I doubt she'd endorse that mindset if she'd known). How would she? Touko on her own, never really confided her inner struggles to Sayaka, like she did with Yuu, though that may be a result of her enabling Touko for so long.

I'm not trying to dispute Yuu's pro activeness in her relationship with Touko as she did do a lot to bring Touko out of the dark and it's what makes her our most beloved character in the manga. But as I see it, Yuu's affection for Touko has always been gradual in its development. During first few months, she put up with Touko's every antics because she's highly tolerant and later joined the stuco and helped Touko out of her kindness, and grew fond of her with each passing day until she was nearly certain the emotion that'd been growing inside her heart was indeed love (Ch. 32). So we can't really say one was "late" than the other IMO. "Accepting everything of Touko" has different meanings for Sayaka and Yuu.

Maybe the manga simply should have been about three teen girls figuring out teen life and then ultimately staying friends as they become adults and their paths diverge ...

Maybe the manga simply should have been about three teen girls figuring out teen life and then ultimately staying friends as they become adults and their paths diverge ...

I can see some people will go rage with this endgame. Lol.

In my opinion, Sayaka's love for Touko is way more grounded than Yuu's. Sayaka loved both sides of Touko, while Yuu loved changing Touko into the person she thinks Touko should be (which happens to be healthier for Touko herself, but it might very well not have been). I mean, if Touko had NOT changed, would Yuu be satisfied? Touko was a bit like a "project" for Yuu, and those relationships usually don't turn out great if the project target doesn't change enough.

And I know it won't happen because YuuxTouko are the "official pairing" and readers would rage, but in a real-life scenario, it would be entirely possible for Touko to pick Sayaka since Sayaka has experienced her changing and accepted both sides, without actively pushing her to change. For someone who longs for deep acceptance, isn't that the ideal kind of partner?

Short answer: no, it is not. Your whole argument sounds like a classic case of Second-Lead Syndrome. Yuu didn’t want Touko to change as a “project” or in order to mold a girlfriend who was more to her liking—it was because she saw the person she loved locked into a false and self-destructive self-image and heading for a deep emotional crisis (the ending of the play initially being the ending of Touko’s reason for living as she had been). Yuu, as Sayaka acknowledged at the time, was the one who had the courage to do something about it.

Of course Touko was a project to Yuu, though not linked to wanting to make her a girlfriend. Yuu was unsatisfied with an aspect of Touko: that she hated herself and was being uber perfectionist because of it. Just because in this particular instance Touko's problem is something that readers also consider a problem, doesn't mean that what Yuu did wasn't what a lot of other people do and that in other contexts would be considered bad: they see a person, they don't like an aspect of that person, and so they push to change that person into "improving" to whatever they consider is The Right Thing (in this case, Touko no longer hating herself).

But just to play devil's advocate here, assume the story was less simplistic than it is. What if at this phase of Touko's life, the drive to be perfect was actually useful no matter the source of it? Maybe without it, she would be just some ordinary girl who doesn't study and is shy and lazy, which would have repercussions for her future. One cannot deny that hating herself has caused her at least two good consequences: she pushed her shyness as a child aside and became a super competent person who is a student council president, and now is also good at acting which is something she genuinely likes.

So I'm not saying Yuu didn't have good intentions, but I separate between intentions, consequences and timing. If Yuu had met Touko earlier, ironically she might well have ruined the awesome person Touko became. We like Yuu because she changed Touko from being self-hating at the right time, but still, I can't help but feel uneasy about the fact she tried to change Touko at all.

The narrative problem isn’t just that Yuu and Touko are “official”—it’s that the basis of the initial TxY relationship has always been potentially toxic and highly manipulative on Touko’s part, and a choice for the supposedly “better” Sayaka retroactively makes the whole thing a version of, “Say, Yuu, thanks a bunch for nudging me into greater mental health—now I see that Sayaka is the one for me! Oh, and all that stuff about me being in love with you? Turns out that was kinda bullshit. My bad! But hey, friends? Stay in touch!”

Yeah so as usual a manga author can't give an original ending to a story because readers gonna rage. I get it. Also I don't think that's how one would interpret such an ending; Touko and Yuu could keep being friends, Yuu could go on to have a relationship with someone where there wasn't a layer of toxicity in the first place, and Sayaka could end up with Touko (or not) due to Touko craving for acceptance. The person who saves you is not always the person you end up with :P

Maybe the manga simply should have been about three teen girls figuring out teen life and then ultimately staying friends as they become adults and their paths diverge ...

I can see some people will go rage with this endgame. Lol.

I wouldn’t say this ending is entirely off the table, and if it were done as well as everything else has been done in this series, it could be a very acceptable resolution.

That said, some recent examples ahem, Citrus suggest that a lot of readers only care about the ultimate shipping outcome and don’t really give much of a shit about how the story gets there. So that would certainly be a problem for them.

My own preferred ending involves Touko and Yuu naked on a hot springs vacation, with Sayaka (something something something) happy elsewhere (YMMV).

But so far I have trusted this author to tell the story she wants to tell and have not been disappointed, so I’m not going to stop now.

@matsuri_wins—as usual, you’re talking about the internal world of the story as if the characters are real people, while I’m talking about the characters in relation to story construction. This is not a swervy narrative— everything is set up methodically and often quite symmetrically. The story you’re imagining is not an implausible or ridiculous one, but it’s not the story that’s been told so far, nor is there much indication that it’s going to be the one going forward.

last edited at Jan 2, 2019 9:01AM