sounds promising!

Idol Pretender is a gender bender, that had the MC fall for his best friend (dude), since apparently being into guys is a part of being a girl (his entire personality started getting rewritten because he turned into a girl).

Well, if your mind/brain is wired to be attracted to the sex that is opposite of yours, why would that change when your body changes from its original sex to the opposite one? It's not like scientists have unlocked the secrets of brain biochemistry that govern what determines a person's sexual orientation. Do we even know that it's entirely inborn, and not affected to at least some degree in at least some cases by environmental influences on one's psychology over the course of their pre-adolescent life? Sure, being raised by a homosexual couple apparently has no correlation with what your sexual orientation would be, but do we know for sure that all homosexual couples raise their children the same way?

The MC in Idol Pretender falling for their best friend is not really an issue. Plenty of Gender Bender stories go this way (most actually). The actual issue with this story is that for 99% of the chapters the story told us "Gender does not matter". The girl the MC had a crush on when he was a guy even slowly turned and started to love MC even if she was a girl. Then suddenly...nope. Gender matters. A girl has to fuck a guy.

A world were men doesn't exist anymore?

Amazing. Seems that even with her manga cancelled Lily Maria finally managed to do her miracle!!

this the world i wanna be reborn in if im in an isekai anime

Same,

"Kyuubei, can I get into this world? I don't think that I ever become despair."

Sheesh, I feel like a few too many people here are too happy about the "No more men" aspect over the yuri.
Yuri shines all the more in context of a world where it isn't the standard imo. The only thing that makes this plot even interesting after all is that MC still remembers being straight in a world of mixed genders.

"I, Uruuno Marika, fall in love just like any normal person."
"To live normally. To fall in love normally. To have a normal wedding, build a normal family, and die a normal death."

I think she just means normal as in without anything special or weird happening.

I think the manga makes it really clear that she considers "straight" as part of her normal and that will be a central focus of the manga. I could be wrong, but I think this manga will be about MC overcoming her heteronormativity

Again removing heteronormativity shouldn't be about twisting everything so straight people will walk on eggshells all the time and be afraid to not include some very minor part of minor group when they talk

Sure, but there's also nothing wrong with pointing out that heteronormative things are heteronormative

Also

well, the thing is... it might be the translation, so it's hard to say for sure, but the way some of her internal monologue is worded makes it sound less like it's her who's not used to seeing gay people, and more like it's the author themselves who thinks that homosexuality is abnormal? stuff like

I could be wrong, but I read that part as the author showing us MC's thought process. That is, that SHE assumes that normal implies straight

well, the thing is... it might be the translation, so it's hard to say for sure, but the way some of her internal monologue is worded makes it sound less like it's her who's not used to seeing gay people, and more like it's the author themselves who thinks that homosexuality is abnormal? stuff like

I could be wrong, but I read that part as the author showing us MC's thought process. That is, that SHE assumes that normal implies straight

And a special acknowledgment to the author of Niven's Law: "There is a technical, literary term for those who mistake the opinions and beliefs of characters in a novel for those of the author. The term is 'idiot'."
- S.M. Stirling

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Page 11: graphical description of yuri heaven.

random posted:

And a special acknowledgment to the author of Niven's Law: "There is a technical, literary term for those who mistake the opinions and beliefs of characters in a novel for those of the author. The term is 'idiot'."
- S.M. Stirling

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

They were talking about MC ^ ^"

YuuMimo posted:

Again removing heteronormativity shouldn't be about twisting everything so straight people will walk on eggshells all the time and be afraid to not include some very minor part of minor group when they talk

Sure, but there's also nothing wrong with pointing out that heteronormative things are heteronormative

I never said it is, but in this case I'm more convinced MC is talking about normal as average, common, uneventful life. Sure she might consider straight normal, but that is because she is straight and was applying it to herself. Again, next chapters can easily prove or disprove it, that is why I'm not excluding possibility I'm giving author too much credit.

last edited at Jan 2, 2019 9:51AM

I never said it is, but in this case I'm more convinced MC is talking about normal as average, common, uneventful life. Sure she might consider straight normal, but that is because she is straight and was applying it to herself. Again, next chapters can easily prove or disprove it, that is why I'm not excluding possibility I'm giving author too much credit.

1. I'm not sure she's straight (check this out)

2. It's a manga, and in that context it seemed to be re-telling the japanese idea of normal. Which obviously includes heterosexuality since gay marriage still isn't legal despite it being CURRENT YEAR. I mean, your interpretation is technically possible, but her introduction is just very similar to 1000 other introductions in manga of people who start off as normal in the sense of what japanese society would consider a normal person. In 99% of those cases the manga then follows their life becoming exciting. So the idea that she was aware that different normals can exist and was talking about her own normal just seems like an enormous stretch compared to the possibility that the author was just following the trope.

1. I'm not sure she's straight (check this out)

Good reference.
Futsu (or futsuu, your romaji may vary) means "normal" in the sense of "the thing everyone else is doing" at the time. Wiktionary translates it like this:

普通 - Adjective - futsū : common, ordinary
普通 - Noun - futsū : the common, the ordinary, nothing special

The point is, it's not supposed to be a positive trait. It doesn't have to be negative (unless you're opposing "ordinary" to "exceptional"), but it certainly isn't something like a great achievement -- more like something bland and meh that you just settled for. For example, if you want to make a show of being humble, you can tell people you're only "futsu" -- by which you mean "oh, I’m nothing special” as a display of modesty.

That's why the MC's complaint that everthing has become "not ordinary" is rather funny. It sounds like she's berating her classmates for stopping being average Joes (Janes?) and turning into totally exceptional people!

Before complaining about heteronormativity, it might be a good idea to ensure you understand what it actually means.

Just saying.

And while it wouldn't be okay to assume the protagonist to be straight by default, so far everything she's said point towards straightness.

The amount of times she makes it clear she's straight makes me think she's not. At least that's a common thing in real life

YuuMimo posted:

1. So the idea that she was aware that different normals can exist and was talking about her own normal just seems like an enormous stretch compared to the possibility that the author was just following the trope.

I wasn't saying she considered different norms. I meant, she was talking about what her standard for having a normal, happy life are and wasn't necessary applying them to everyone in general. She wasn't saying everyone should aim to be normal, just she wants. And sure, she is straight, of course to her being straight is norm and that is what she consider normal (again, I already explained why normal=/=good and not normal=/=bad, but it's common for people to conflate those 2 things). All I'm saying is that 1. neither she or author are saying being gay is bad or don't consider it a valid option 2. she didn't openly reject idea of homosexuality. At least not yet.

Doctor_Hoot posted:

She complains about the gay dimension making her feel uncomfortable and uneasy multiple times. She's not happy about any of this.

Again, nothing suggest what she is uncomfortable with is other people being gay. She noticed something is off, something changed, but she isn't sure what. Also sure she is straight and having a het love is normal for her and she aims for it, but at no point she shows disgust or rejected other girls for being gay. In fact only time she says anything is when she sees 2 of her friends kissing, when yesterday they were straight and 1 had boyfriend. And still she follows it with "I'm not against it". There is still chance she will say something homophobic in future chapters, but so far we didn't see her making any statements about being gay specifically.

last edited at Jan 3, 2019 10:17AM

https://jisho.org/word/%E6%99%AE%E9%80%9A

Futsuu can mean normal as well. But the English translation is not the point in this instance. The protagonist clearly considers "futsuu" to be a positive thing, presumably because it's safe and predictable. She literally says "Normal is the best! Normal is love!" on page 5. She complains about the gay dimension making her feel uncomfortable and uneasy multiple times. She's not happy about any of this.

I don't think we should ignore the text just because the alternative meanings of futsuu make the chapter funnier, or our protagonist not straight. If we have to ignore the work's really obvious text itself to make it funny, maybe the work just was never that funny in the first place. And while it wouldn't be okay to assume the protagonist to be straight by default, so far everything she's said point towards straightness.

You lost me there. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. I followed your link and found this:

普通
1. general; ordinary; usual​
2. normally; generally; usually​
3. really (Colloquialism, as 普通に)
4. local train; train that stops at every station
5. Normality (behavior): ​Normality (also known as normalcy) is the state of being normal. Behaviour can be normal for an individual (intrapersonal normality) when it is consistent with the most common behaviour for that person. "Normal" is also used to describe when someone's behaviour conforms to the most common behaviour in society. Definitions of normality vary by person, time, place, and situation – it changes along with changing societal standards and norms.

All entries, leaving aside 3 and 4 that are unrelated to our matter, include "general" "usual" or "common" in their definition of futsu. Which was my point to begin with. There's no mention anywhere that being common and ordinary must be assumed to be worthwhile or desirable.

When MC says "Normal is the best! Normal is love!" she's not quoting a dictionary or a rulebook. She's not implying that mediocrity is hailed in our world as a great virtue or that the commonplace and the ordinary are generally regarded as the bestest of the best. She's taking a stand, a controversial stand, against certain ideals like "aim for the top" "always do your best" or "be ambitious" that are found so often in manga and anime. There's a Japanese proverb that goes "出る釘は打たれる" or, in English, "The nail that sticks out gets hammered down." This saying pretty much summarizes our MC's philosophy of life: she plans to live her life being careful to never ever stick out. She knows that we (the readers of the manga) won't approve of such weaksauce attitude, but she doesn't mind. She's like "In your face, readers!" as she proclaims her manifesto: "Normal is the best!" etc. etc. You see? That's her shtick.

No wonder she's going bananas now that the world has gone through a reality warp and her carefully cultivated normalcy suddenly makes her stand out like a beacon. ^.^ Her one goal in life was never to make waves, and now all the other girls are looking at her as if she's an alien just out of the flying saucer ...

Character:

Normal is number one.
Normal is the best.
Normal is love.

Occam's Big Paisley Tie:

she was talking about what her standard for having a normal, happy life are and wasn't necessary applying them to everyone in general. She wasn't saying everyone should aim to be normal, just she wants

YuuMimo posted:

Character:

Normal is number one.
Normal is the best.
Normal is love.

Occam's Big Paisley Tie:

she was talking about what her standard for having a normal, happy life are and wasn't necessary applying them to everyone in general. She wasn't saying everyone should aim to be normal, just she wants

That is dishonest. Where does it say she thinks everyone should live like that? She only proclaims it in her inner monologue to herself, making audience understand how much she wants to live "normal live" and then the twist is, her normal lives stopped being normal, because something unexplained happened to her. Until we get a scene where she tells gay girls that being gay is not normal and they should live normal lives, because normal is the best, I'm not going to jump to conclusions, she wants enforce her norm on everyone else.

I'm not saying normal can't meant straight, but you guys really seems to focus on that part way too much and try to paint her (and/or author) as some huge homophobe, rejecting sole idea of being gay as being normal, when she never said anything like that. Can't straight girl say she likes being straight? She has to include everyone else even in her thoughts?

last edited at Jan 3, 2019 12:36PM

I'm not saying normal can't meant straight, but you guys really seems to focus on that part way too much

We've just read enough manga to know what this means in this context. It means conforming to social norms.

and try to paint her (and/or author) as some huge homophobe

I, for one, never said that. I just said she has a heteronormative mindset and that I think (and hope) that the manga will show her getting cured

My main point about the sexual orientation was only that for now, we have no evidence of her not being straight. I don't blame people for hoping or expecting her to realize she likes girls more than it would first appear, but whether that is actually true is something we'll just have to wait and see - there is no way to tell based on the first chapter.

Okay. That's a reasonable point and I can agree with that.

As a matter of fact, the first chapter of this manga reminds me a little of Miyuki-chan in Wonderland -- in that the MC, having been mysteriously transported into Lesbianland, doesn't react like a yurigirl at all. If you recall, Miyuki, in that old manga, completely ignored the mouth-watering yuri temptations around her and kept complaining about the disruptive effect that these magical events would have in her normal life. (Her catchphrase was: "If this goes on... I'll be late for school! Oh noes!") There is some of that in this story. The MC, finding herself in another reality, doesn't go "YATTA! MY DREAM HAS COME TRUE!" or anything like that; instead, she keeps expressing dissatisfaction at the new state of affairs in the world around her. So, yeah: we can't, in good faith, declare her a yurigirl right now -- because, to quote you, there is no way to tell based on this first chapter. What floats her boat? Go figure. No clue so far. We'll just have to wait and see.

... Although, that said, I do believe we can safely affirm that this manga won't be a repeat of Miyuki-chan in Wonderland. Cover art and text are like a huge telltale sign:

In giant neon letters.

Our sweet heroine will give herself to yurisexuality sooner or later, yes she will. ♡

meh, this author again

what about him?

meh, this author again

what about him?

Some people got badly burned by Idol Pretender, and are still mad at the author...

YuuMimo posted:

I'm not saying normal can't meant straight, but you guys really seems to focus on that part way too much

We've just read enough manga to know what this means in this context. It means conforming to social norms.

Fair enough. I simply choose to not do that and instead only focus on work in question.

and try to paint her (and/or author) as some huge homophobe

I, for one, never said that. I just said she has a heteronormative mindset and that I think (and hope) that the manga will show her getting cured

And I said, even if she has, story itself so far didn't give us evidence she is applying this mindset to anyone else except for herself. She might and future chapter might show us her saying this yuritopia is wrong, because that is not the way things are supposed to be, but for now we simply did not see that. Also her considering straight norm is not a issue, as long as she doesn't reject or deny others their identity or right to exist and so far she was acceptance of other people being gay (namely her 2 friends), despite how out of place it was for her (yesterday they were straight and 1 dated a guy). Also cured is very weird word to use here.

I forgot last time, but since we're using famous quotes then:

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

Although I would use word "ignorance" in this specific case.

Doctor_Hoot posted:

She says multiple times that she likes being futsuu ( or existing in a state of affairs that is futsuu, whether it's a heterosexual relationship, or a world where heterosexual couples exist), instead of this strange dimension. She also says that she is uncomfortable with whatever is happening. Straight or not straight, homophobic or not, she says and thinks those things in the chapter. Doubting her words when we have no reason to believe she's lying, is what I'd call a stretch.

And I'd agree with you, but we clearly see she is not yet aware anything happened to her world. So far all she noticed is that the amount of usually smaller/non existence lesbian couples increased drastically, her friends suddenly turned gay since yesterday and guys are conspicuously missing. What used to be normal to her, you don't see openly gay couple everywhere, your straight friends keep being straight, guys exist, suddenly is no longer the case and that is what make her feel uncomfortable. She noticed something changed, but she is unaware of nature of that change. That is why until she becomes aware of what is happening and make conscious, informed comment on it, I'm holding myself from judging her thoughts as if they applied to being gay or living in this yuri paradise, because she herself does not make them with that in mind.

And again, all of this might become irrelevant with next chapter if she goes and do all those things you guys accuse her of doing. I'm simply judging her only on the information we have so far.

last edited at Jan 4, 2019 9:52PM

Fair enough. I simply choose to not do that and instead only focus on work in question.

I think that's silly

And I said, even if she has, story itself so far didn't give us evidence she is applying this mindset to anyone else except for herself.

I don't think people just have mindsets and then not apply them

Also her considering straight norm is not a issue, as long as she doesn't reject or deny others their identity or right to exist

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

Although I would use word "ignorance" in this specific case.

Please tell me where I attributed anything to malice. Aren't you the one equating me saying that she's heteronormative (which she is) with me saying she's a bad person?

Also cured is very weird word to use here.

It's a bit of an edgy joke, don't mind it.