Where does the rape talk always come from? All I can see in this story is a healthy gay for stay relationship.

lol somehow the whole story is extremely funny and I literally snorted when MC asked herself "Why do I love trash like her?" Because it's Kodama Naoko, duh. Another great work with twisted characters who I enjoy reading about xD

last edited at Sep 9, 2018 10:57AM

Ahaha I guess she did cement her style with trashy characters and still purposefully doing it to this day. It's quite hilarious and amazing how she always admits her characters are garbage. I found this one quite cute though, reasons unknown lol

I like how the senpai's reaction (after the understandable initial bewilderment) seems to be about "O-oh, my cute kouhai's all grown up now..."

Another work from Kodama Naoko, let's see...
Sees the tags
Clicking really fast because of this

If there is a Roommate tag, I am legally obligated to quote that Vine for every oneshot, chapter, or series read.

I really like these little stories that Naoko draws. It's surprise how old they are. This one is from 2013...

Urgh, I just hate this whole concept of if you can't get a job you are worthless.

that's capitalism for you

Capitalism ho!!!!

I think she's worthless not because she can't get a job, but because she refuses to get a job and just spends her time drinking by herself in her friend's apartment, who she's mooching off of.

lol somehow the whole story is extremely funny and I literally snorted when MC asked herself "Why do I love trash like her?" Because it's Kodama Naoko, duh.

Eh, I thought the answer was "because of her hot bod, lovely face, shapely legs and mega huge boobs" but hey whatevs. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Urgh, I just hate this whole concept of if you can't get a job you are worthless.

that's capitalism for you

BS, that's just basic logic. If you can't produce wealth is because you ARE worthless...

I wonder why Kodama cant write a happy story

I wonder why Kodama cant write a happy story

She can, she just doesn't wanna.

I wonder why Kodama cant write a happy story

Was under the impression she could but doesn't want to. She's pretty candid about her personal preferences in the afterwords after all.

That said I'd point out varyingly warped people fumbling into some form of mutually agreeable relationship tends to be a recurring theme in her works. Surely that counts as a degree of "happy story", just not of the conventional kind?

I wonder why Kodama cant write a happy story

She can, she just doesn't wanna.

And Renai Manga which is up there with the fluffiest. The two MCs are the height of adorability.

I think the sempai got what she wanted. If she even has a sexuality, it's "take-care-of-me-sexual."

The idea that the MC was forcing her to go against her alleged sexuality I see no evidence for. She plainly says that she wants some guy to support her and she'll be his girlfriend or marry him based on how much he does for her, and that's the extent of it.

ALL the MC really does is forcefully suggest that she consider a female option for that, and at the end, the sempai is very happy with that choice.

The MC will never, ever push the issue. First of all, she was told up front what sempai is like. She also witnessed it first-hand, for years. So she has no real leverage, and her freeloader knows it. Also her freeloader won't have to worry about pregnancy etc. So she's in heaven. The only problem on the horizon is if her piggy lifestyle makes her less attractive, since MC won't be able to easily coax or coerce her into staying in shape.

Second, the MC is part of the process of making sempai what she is now. She covered for her, endlessly. Helped her skate without learning anything in school, and shielded her from the consequences of only going to work when she felt like it and often doing nothing when she got there. For several years. If she'd been a true friend instead of having a crush and being codependent, that wouldn't have happened.

Anyway I think the MC is more together than the sempai, but deeply flawed. So overall we are stil falling short of the NTR standard.

Nevri you are as thick as they come. You completely missed Altair's and my point.
For the people with sound mind and morals, you agree to sex because you desire it, not because they give you an ultimatum or in exchange for goods and services.
We could talk about prostitutes but for one, senpai isn't one and if she were one out of her own desire, she wouldn't have had a problem paying her rent in the first place- and for two women get into it exactly because they are in a vulnerable situation where they can only solve a problem by creation another.

Kohai could have kicked her out, you are right that she isn't obligated to support her financially, but she could have just kicked her out when she had enough. Simple as that. The fact that she asked her supposed friend that she sell her body for rent is what's wrong. You can try to justify it with BS for pages and it wouldn't change this.

Homelessness would have caused senpai trouble, maybe would have done her some good,we'll never know. But I know homeless people who are worth more than any billionaire. This story was too short to tell what's senpai's worth is but I don't think it's determined by how well she can keep a job.

schuyguy

I think she's worthless not because she can't get a job, but because she refuses to get a job and just spends her time drinking by herself in her friend's apartment, who she's mooching off of.

Kohai said "she was fired again" and can't hold a job" if that happened to people on this side I don't know how many of them would have stayed cheerful, looking for the next job. Everyone gets depressed sometimes, and wants to quit the things they aren't good at. It would be nice if she found something she is good at and then make money off it, but not everyone finds that thing early in their life. She definitely has to get herself together but I feel more compassion towards her instead of looking down on her.

This is the best kind of Naoko Kodama story, where both of the leads are kinda awful people so that you don't have to feel bad for either of them.

What is awful about MC? Randomly insult a character like that is awful.

It wasn't rape, because senpai had the full autonomy to leave. It wasn't taking advantage of a vulnerable person, because senpai intentionally didn't want to find work and just wanted to mooch off people. If anything, the request for sex was a fair AND admirable decision. Admirable because MC wasn't a doormat that let people step all over her without doing anything about it, but she wasn't nasty about it either. Truly awful people would have pretended to be nice and selfless on the surface then talked behind the other's back in contempt.

Basically the MC told her friend "Be my whore or be homeless." Sure that's the sort of noble thing all nice, balanced and morally upstanding individuals do to their best friends and love interests. I'm not saying I hate the MC or anything, but saying she did nothing wrong is hilarious. She is actually probably the more morally stained of the two characters. The other one is just a lazy free loader.

Timea817 posted:

For the people with sound mind and morals, you agree to sex because you desire it, not because they give you an ultimatum or in exchange for goods and services.

How nice of you to say I'm screwed in the head. I simply don't see anything wrong with what Kouhai did. I clearly won't convince you, so I won't even bother. Not that I'd care to after you insulted me. Also news flash, morality is not a objective thing. There is pretty much as much nuance to it as there is people. But I guess comprehending that I'm not a prude like you and I don't get triggered at slightest implication of rape or suggestion of sex for benefit is too much for close-minded asshole like you.

We could talk about prostitutes but for one, senpai isn't one

Good thing you don't have to be a prostitute to pay with your body for something. Talking about missing the point.

last edited at Sep 9, 2018 8:01PM

Kohai said "she was fired again" and can't hold a job" if that happened to people on this side I don't know how many of them would have stayed cheerful, looking for the next job. Everyone gets depressed sometimes, and wants to quit the things they aren't good at. It would be nice if she found something she is good at and then make money off it, but not everyone finds that thing early in their life. She definitely has to get herself together but I feel more compassion towards her instead of looking down on her.

You really missed the point of those first couple pages. She was fired because she slept late, skipped work, and couldn't be bothered to learn the most basic skills necessary to do her job. If you can't use a copy machine, it's not because it's a difficult task that not everyone is good at, it's because you don't give a shit. When asked about it, she lied and deflected, never acknowledging her faults.

This character was presented not as someone who couldn't work, but as someone who simple didn't care even to try, who spent her whole life relying on the goodwill of others, getting her way through manipulation and lying if necessary. If there is some deeper cause for her behavior, then it's not even hinted at in the story. And we even get a look at the author's opinion, and she says this character is trash. So whatever reason you might ascribe to her lifestyle, it's purely fanfic, not a legitimate interpretation of the text—both the work itself and the author are saying that she's just lazy and selfish.

When it comes to the real world, I agree with you. Lots of people find themselves unable to function, for one reason or another. And I would never call those people worthless. Even for someone who behaves like Keiko, that's overly harsh. But within the story, it's clear that Asumi's judgement is justified.

I read the whole argument you wrote Nevri. Thanks for writing what I am too lazy to write.

For the people with sound mind and morals, you agree to sex because you desire it, not because they give you an ultimatum or in exchange for goods and services.

She wasn't forced into it, she can say no and walked away. She stayed because she's too lazy to hold a job and want to leech. This is the same thing about being a trophy wife. They chose it. Same with this, no one is physically coercing senpai into staying and have sex. It's not raped. She agreed to it. Senpai is basically using her look and kouhai's feeling to freeload. I won't shit on any of them for their decisions because they're ADULTS not children. They know what they're going in for.

For the people with sound mind and morals, you agree to sex because you desire it, not because they give you an ultimatum or in exchange for goods and services.

How nice of you to say I'm screwed in the head. I simply don't see anything wrong with what Kouhai did. I clearly won't convince you, so I won't even bother. Not that I'd care to after you insulted me.

That's the right attitude, Nevri. Ignore them. Don't pay attention to people with anti-sex agendas who come here to preach pious claptrap and insult other commenters. Don't feed the trolls, as the saying goes.

Also news flash, morality is not a objective thing. There is pretty much as much nuance to it as there is people.

Indeed. Bringing "morality" into the discussion is the last resort of a despairing sophist who has been pulverized on every other point.

The simple truth is, sex is not wrong. Asking someone -- a friend, an acquaintance, even a person you only met today -- to have sex with you is not wrong. Offering something to that person in exchange for sex is not wrong. Not wrong, just like that, period, full stop.

This whole thing reminds me of a scene I've seen in countless college-age campy movies where a girl who needs a place to sleep goes to the door of some guy she knows and asks to spend the night there, to which he replies that it's ok if she agrees to have sex with him. At that point she says yes (and naughty fun ensues) or she says no and goes ask someone else. Just that easy. Nobody forces nobody, everyone make their own free choices. It's the same situation with our two girls here. Sempai can say yes or can say no. Her choice is to say yes. Angry puritans should learn to show respect for a woman who makes her own decisions about her sex life and doesn't have a care for conservative tradition.

last edited at Sep 10, 2018 1:04AM

MC is not an angel but we have to suspend a little disbelief here. In the context of this story, the sempai got a better deal than she was angling for. She got a husband she knows is in love with her and will take care of her, and she, the husband, is less of a hassle than some random guy would be.

The only thing the MC is doing wrong, really, is the farce where she pushes her "wife" to go out and get another job. Since that will never happen, she should stop immediately for the sake of the peace of the house

You really missed the point of those first couple pages. She was fired because she slept late, skipped work, and couldn't be bothered to learn the most basic skills necessary to do her job. If you can't use a copy machine, it's not because it's a difficult task that not everyone is good at, it's because you don't give a shit. When asked about it, she lied and deflected, never acknowledging her faults.

And MC enabled her, which is her only real crime against sempai. Starting in college.

JFC, demanding sex is never okay. Demanding sex is never okay. Jesus. Fucking. Christ. Sex is never an ultimatum, that's rape. Yes, senpai is being a shitty human being too; shitty people are still people.

Sorry if I take rape apologists too personally, but I ran out of capacity to forgive someone who decides they're entitled to sex.

Isn't "demanding" a verb that implicates the other party to have a choice?
(Edit: this was an actual question since English isn't my first language, but now I used a thesaurus and I guess "demand" is not a synonym to "request" as I read it...)

Though I do agree that the conversation and the actual sex should not have happened at the same time. It would have felt much better (in the context of this story with two flawed characters) if it went more like:

1. "I realized that I only put up with you because you're hot, and I've already told you that I won't let you freeload indefinitely. So now that I have recognized my feelings, I will act on them if you stay here."
2. senpai does not leave
3. sex

so basically plotwise nothing is different, except that MC tells senpai the thoughts only she and the readers know about, in a way that is stating her reasoning and not just announcing her ultimatum.

To me it feels like the commenters who read the story from MC's perspective are more likely to condone her behavior, because there is insight into her thoughts leading up to the confrontation, while someone taking senpai's perspective will take the ultimatum more seriously. The author could have fixed this by making clear that senpai was okay with it beforehand and not just afterwards, but I guess it wasn't important to them because they like trashy characters?

last edited at Sep 10, 2018 7:14AM

You're being too absolute. Demanding sex is rape only if the other party is under duress or compelled to accept the demand. For example, telling someone "have sex with me or leave" would still be cruel, or rude, or gross, but if someone says that to, say, a stranger on the street, or an acquaintance visiting their apartment—a person who knows they can simply refuse, walk away, and never interact again if they so choose—I don't see how anyone could see that as equivalent to rape. Under those circumstances, if someone agrees, then they are voluntarily consenting.

When it comes to this manga, I think people can reasonably disagree over whether Keiko is under duress in this situation. On the one hand Asumi has every right to decide who lives in her apartment, and Keiko is free to leave. On the other hand, for all we know she's threatening to kick Keiko out into the night to sleep on the streets.