Fumi is just doing what her mother was pestering her to do because she thinks she's too old to allow herself to act youthful and do what she really wants to do. She won't even let herself wear her hair in a youthful style despite everyone thinking it's better (oh, I see the translation has got the mother's suggestion and Fumi's dismissive response wrong so that would obscure that point). Before her encounter with Touma she was already on that path, and could have got off it through Touma's encouragement, but went down it despite obviously being downcast about it.

So... what are you suggesting? That she'd throw all fetters to the wind and goes on a journey to find her inner young lesbian by having sex with all cute girls in sight?

last edited at Apr 21, 2018 5:35AM

So... what are you suggesting? That she'd throw all fetters to the wind and goes on a journey to find her inner young lesbian by having sex with all cute girls in sight?

Why would you think some kind of extreme is supposed to be the alternative?

There's plenty of things she could do instead of quitting her job and following her mother's wishes. The basics would be to allow herself to still feel youthful, her keep her nice hairstyle, and not feel guilty about having sex with Touma. Maybe she could have more sex with Touma. Maybe she could find romance elsewhere.

Reejun posted:

So... what are you suggesting? That she'd throw all fetters to the wind and goes on a journey to find her inner young lesbian by having sex with all cute girls in sight?

Why would you think some kind of extreme is supposed to be the alternative?

There's plenty of things she could do instead of quitting her job and following her mother's wishes. The basics would be to allow herself to still feel youthful, her keep her nice hairstyle, and not feel guilty about having sex with Touma. Maybe she could have more sex with Touma. Maybe she could find romance elsewhere.

Also not bend to will of her parents and tell them fuck you I'm marring when I want, who I want, so don't tell me what to do. Oh also I will dress however I want, so you opinion is irrelevant. Simply doing what others tell her to do what a adult should do is not being a adult. The important part is that she didn't want to go to interview or marry a guy, but she was told that is what adults are doing so she did it, to feel like a adult. Her mother kept telling her what she can and can't do as adult, so she cut herself off from everything that would be seen as not adult like, like having sex with girls or having her bangs show to feel more like a adult, but that wasn't what she actually wanted to do. She was under the impression that is what she has to do to become a adult, because she was constantly told so. Experience with Touma made her realized that until she herself change her behavior to adult-like nothing will do it for her. The tragedy is that instead of actually finding that out for herself what being a adult mean, she just followed what she was told she is supposed to do. The point is, it all boils down to old and tired "pressure of society". She was certain age, so she was pressured to act as a adult in the way society expected adults to act. And again we are back to implication that that also suggest, adults are not allowed to have same sex relationships/sex, cos she attributes it to something young people do. And of course she wishes she was younger, pretty strongly implicating that she want to experience more of it, but she can't anymore, because she is a adult. And again, she herself might not agree with it, but that is what society pressured her to think. (Also sure, Touma kun might be representing a guy or youth's freedom to have random sex in general or something like that, but it is written as yuri manga with women so I'm reading it as jab at homosexuality).

Also I have to admit once we agreed Touma is a concept, not character, talking about series become much easier.

EDIT/ Also I can't believe I didn't think of it earlier. You all are saying how marriage not necessary has to be bad, it isn't wrong she consider a possibility of marring a random guy (who knows, maybe they will click, but again, why not random girl then?), but you are still acting like she has to marry at some point. That marring is essential part of being a adult. What happened to option of just being a single? Concept of marring is old, but for the most part it was mostly done for political and/or financial reasons, not really in order to gain happiness (that concept is relatively new). So saying most people done it, is not really that good, considering you are just pushing that outdated mind-set on Fumi, just like her parents do.

last edited at Apr 21, 2018 8:00AM

It's nowhere written that she's absolutely going to marry after that interview.

She just agreed to go to the interview, because she respects her parents and doesn't want to make them worry. The adult thing to do is to go along what they want (the meeting), but ultimately, the choice is hers.

You all seem to forget that in Asian societies, respect for and obedience to the elders are paramount. Being rebellious and telling your parents to fuck off is a teenager thing. Once you're an adult, you get to understand that most parents just worry about you finding your place, but the final choice is yours. So, unless she has really rigid parents, if she choose to not proceed and make another choice, they will understand, especially if she complied with their wishes at first.

When she says that all the other women have been "turned into girls", she means that they gave up on being adult women and allowed themselves to forsake their role in the school in exchange for sexy time with Touma. They completely abdicated their independence and became slave to their feelings, or their libido. If Touma was really a boy, everyone would be up in arms because it would show how these women submitted to the patriarchy and the handsome Ikemen and everyone would praise the nurse for being able to free herself from his influence.

For short, I do not judge the nurse because she went along the interview and will eventually marry. I praise her for being able to make her life choices independently of Touma, or that which she represents, that is, carefree youth.

^ You are incredibly off base. You're applying a curiously conservative perspective and somehow, thanks to a stereotyped view of the Japanese, you think Amano Shuninta writing for Galette would be supporting that way of seeing things.

This chapter is one of many. Amano Shuninta writes from a lot of different perspectives. She doesn't have to support this one to write about it. Maybe she loathes it. But it doesn't keep it from existing and from being a pregnant mindset in the Japanese society.

Woman graduates -> goes to university -> finds a job -> marries -> drops job -> has kids -> stays at home.

It's still very present in Japan. Japan is ranked 114th in the international ranking for men and women equality.

I don't support the nurse choice. But it's her choice.

Some choose to stray from that path. Some don't. Who are we to dictate what other people ought to do?

last edited at Apr 21, 2018 10:14AM

The story has the perspective of the protagonist but that's in contrast to what the story conveys. The attitude of the protagonist is being presented in the story as unfortunate and bad for her. Whereas you're putting a weird positive spin on it that I can say with certainty that Shuninta did not intend to be read into it.

You didn't read enough Amano Shuninta it seems. In The Feelings We All Must Endure, or more so in Philosophia, the characters don't all have a happy ending. Her characters make bad, or even sometimes evil, choices but it's their choice.

In the end, everyone is responsible for the fortunes or misfortunes that happen to them. And it's up to them to decide if it was a fortune or misfortune.

Touma, here, is just a parenthesis in the life of these girls and women. She makes them shine and fly for a short moment, but then they come back to earth.

Maybe the teachers that fool around with Touma are not in the wrong either. It's their choice. And Touma is everyone's Touma.

I actually find myself agreeing with Gale, their analysis would also explain this work's sudden turn into absurdity, in terms of Touma's ladyslaying abilities. Shuninta has done some rather silly and absurd works, but they were like that from the get-go, and for the first two and a half chapters this particular work really could have passed for just another story with a player, the absurdity came seemingly out of left field. And as Nevri pointed out, it would not be the first time Shuninta did something like this, each of the main girls in "The Feelings We All Must Endure" is based in some way on one of the seven deadly sins.

As for some sort of positive progress the girls made, I would argue the first two chapters really did that. The first girl became appreciative of her looks and realised she too can be cute, it is pretty straightforward.
The second girl is somewhat more difficult to read outright as making a positive change, but it is still there, in my opinion. She was obsessed with wanting to be special, and that did not really change, but what she thinks makes her special did. Her starting point was that Touma is extremely special, and if Touma "chooses" her it will automatically make her special too. In other words, she looked at "being special" as something another person can basically bestow upon her, without her actual character being part of the equation. At the end, she asks the plain looking girl what she sees in her. It is subtle, but I would write that down as a sort of positive progress too.

The third chapter is weird, in this regard. After reading the comments here, I actually agree with Nya-chan that the nurse is probably not gay/bisexual. Admittedly, I did read her as repressed gay at first, because yuri and Shuninta (reading this much yuri stuff really does affect one's perception, lol), hence why I focused so much on this implied idea how being with another girl is something you grow out of, and eventually you marry a man. Now, though, I think there was nothing of the sort implied, her longing for Touma at the end is a longing for her bygone youth, rather than for another girl.

With that being said, she is still an idiot, and her choice is still a bad one. It has nothing to do with sexuality, and it has nothing to do with marriage as such, it is completely down to the fact she does not want it and is forcing herself, because that is the "adult" thing to do. Yes, Asians are big on the whole family thing, but even so, unmarried people are not unheard of, even in Japan. And I find it puzzling why some are focusing so much on the it-is-just-a-meeting-it-is-not-marriage angle. The whole point of it all is to marry one day, maybe not to the first one she goes to the meeting with, but that is completely irrelevant. The author just chose the omiai as a means to convey she will one day do the "adult" thing and marry.

So I do not see anything positive about her "realisations". This is basically her character summed up in a single panel. "I must force myself to do this because of my age." She was like that before Touma, the only thing her experience with Touma did was kick this side of her into overdrive.

She won't even let herself wear her hair in a youthful style despite everyone thinking it's better (oh, I see the translation has got the mother's suggestion and Fumi's dismissive response wrong so that would obscure that point).

You mean, on this page, she actually has her old hairstyle? Because the new one is too youthful? Lmao, she really is a complete moron.

last edited at Apr 21, 2018 11:34AM

Being an "adult woman", and generally older than the characters in [Adult Life] manga, I can very much relate to the "I'm not young anymore" mentality a lot of characters have. As much as it feels dumb, unnecessary, tragic, or what-have-you when characters give into pressure or expectations in stories like this, it's unfortunately quite realistic. Whether you give in or you're strong enough to keep doing your own thing, and whether it's subtle or in-your-face, there is always a kind of pressure to "be normal" —that's different from what you might face during primary and secondary education— even in a supposedly very "progressive" country like where I live.

That said, it's precisely for that reason that I generally dislike realistic feelsbad stories about adult life. There's plenty of realism in real life. When I was younger, I even had a fling with a Japanese woman, who just a few months later happily told me that she was getting married, so I got to experience that wonderful trope first-hand. I'm not bitter. Not at all.

last edited at Apr 21, 2018 2:28PM

Well... some people are happy to be married. And some couples don't conform to the traditional roles.

Thinking that any and all het marriage is a tragedy is a bit... narrow minded.

I guess I went off on a anti-marriage rant there. The tragedy is that the teacher feels she needs to get married, whether she wants to or not, in order to be a proper adult.

last edited at Apr 21, 2018 3:26PM

I mean... Like the metaphorical Touma-kun, I'm kind of inclined to see the marriage interview as a purely symbolic motif for accepting adulthood, rather than a literal man she went off to marry in spite of her own wants or desires. Even if Amano Shuninta doesn't personally believe in "marriage = maturity" as a universal truth (which she almost definitely doesn't, let's be real) it still functions as cultural shorthand her readers would be intimately familiar with, and if I'm already interpreting Touma as metaphorical, I've got no reason to take the marriage as strictly literal either.

The bitterness people feel about the nurse accepting the omiai may be fully intentional on Amano Shuninta's part too; she might be deliberately portraying conventional adulthood as an unpleasant and unwanted burden foisted upon us by societal expectations. We might be supposed to question whether or not the nurse made the right choice, and in so doing, question what it means to be an "adult" in the first place.

If this was a Takemiya Jin work, then I'd probably interpret it differently, because she seems a lot more sympathetic to the idea that a woman can find genuine happiness by settling down with a man and starting a family, even if it's not exactly where she wanted her life to lead.

But this is an Amano Shuninta joint, so even if the nurse does canonically go off and have a lukewarm marriage with a man chosen by her parents, it's just so she can cheat on him with the neighbouring housewife or her stepdaughter or whoever. If anything, the fact that she's setting off on her stoic adulthood with her lingering desires for lost youth locked away in her heart, means that she's almost guaranteed to fall into a torrid love affair with a precocious, smart-mouthed teenager who relentlessly teases her but nonetheless makes her feel young and pretty in all the ways she secretly wished for. So y'know. Swings and roundabouts.

last edited at Apr 21, 2018 3:32PM

Can we somehow make the above post more visible? Perhaps share it on social pages Shuninta might frequent? That sort of thing?

I'm now convinced (thanks in large part to the discussion here) that Touma-kun functions not as a psychologically realist character but as a trickster-fay figure: beautiful, ambiguously gendered, seductive, and those who come into contact with her are changed in some significant way that is related to their desires, not necessarily for (in their view) the better. She's not malicious or even rebellious, just unconcerned with conventional morality.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a "trickster tricked" or "seductress falls in love" turn to this one.

I mean... Like the metaphorical Touma-kun, I'm kind of inclined to see the marriage interview as a purely symbolic motif for accepting adulthood, rather than a literal man she went off to marry in spite of her own wants or desires. Even if Amano Shuninta doesn't personally believe in "marriage = maturity" as a universal truth (which she almost definitely doesn't, let's be real) it still functions as cultural shorthand her readers would be intimately familiar with, and if I'm already interpreting Touma as metaphorical, I've got no reason to take the marriage as strictly literal either.

The bitterness people feel about the nurse accepting the omiai may be fully intentional on Amano Shuninta's part too; she might be deliberately portraying conventional adulthood as an unpleasant and unwanted burden foisted upon us by societal expectations. We might be supposed to question whether or not the nurse made the right choice, and in so doing, question what it means to be an "adult" in the first place.

If this was a Takemiya Jin work, then I'd probably interpret it differently, because she seems a lot more sympathetic to the idea that a woman can find genuine happiness by settling down with a man and starting a family, even if it's not exactly where she wanted her life to lead.

But this is an Amano Shuninta joint, so even if the nurse does canonically go off and have a lukewarm marriage with a man chosen by her parents, it's just so she can cheat on him with the neighbouring housewife or her stepdaughter or whoever. If anything, the fact that she's setting off on her stoic adulthood with her lingering desires for lost youth locked away in her heart, means that she's almost guaranteed to fall into a torrid love affair with a precocious, smart-mouthed teenager who relentlessly teases her but nonetheless makes her feel young and pretty in all the ways she secretly wished for. So y'know. Swings and roundabouts.

I'm not sure which of Takemiya Jin's works gave you that idea? I can't remember any of her stories that ended with a happy het marriage. I don't doubt you, I honestly don't remember.

I will say. I always disliked the idea, that homosexuality is a childish indulgence of youth, that seem to permeate a lot of yuri. I find it hard to enjoy a lighthearted all girl school yuri romance. I just keep thinks that none of this matters. The couple is going graduate, meat men and go their separate ways. It's like the authors are saying, don't worry folks. These girls aren't really lesbians. The just don't have men available, so the have to practice falling in love with each other.

Japan has the idea of class S, so on a societal level there is the widespread idea that intimate, romantic relationships between girls is a mark of immaturity and something to be outgrown with adulthood. Western cultures have similar ideas, just not under as-clearly-defined terms ("homosexuality is just a phase", LUGs, etc.).

So the nurse rejecting her experience with Touma and instead resigning herself to her arranged, heterosexual marriage can easily be interpreted as her giving up on her inner girl for the sake of her womanhood. I generally agree with the theme that one shouldn't have to completely give up their inner child in order to become an adult.

last edited at Apr 21, 2018 4:52PM

I'm not sure which of Takemiya Jin's works gave you that idea? I can't remember any of her stories that ended with a happy het marriage. I don't doubt you, I honestly don't remember.

I'm mainly thinking of Fragments of Love, chapter 1. Ends with a woman who harboured some regrets about her past, some doubts about her sexuality, finds out that she could be happy with a woman if she wanted to, but ultimately decides to marry and have kids, and is strongly implied to have earnestly found happiness that way. I'm also assuming that the woman wasn't exactly head-over-heels in love with her prospective husband at the time, if she was still concerned that she might not even be interested in men.

It's not quite the same situation as what we've been talking about, and a lot of the important details are largely up for interpretation, but the overall impression I get is that there's space in Takemiya Jin's work for characters to choose a traditional arranged marriage, and be perfectly happy and fulfilled by it. I contrast this with how marriage tends to be depicted by Amano Shuninta, i.e. a bland and unfulfilling burden that you put up with while finding socially unacceptable ways to make your life interesting.

To be clear, I'm not really talking about what the author's themselves believe about real life - I'm thinking specifically about the kind of attitudes I expect to find in their work. It's more about the kinds of stories they tend to write, their typical genre choices and narrative tendencies, than anything else. So I'm not saying that Amano Shuninta definitely thinks of marriage as a miserable trap for unhappy women, just that those are the only kinds of marriages she's interested in writing about. So when she depicts a woman sealing away her youthfulness to attend an omiai, I don't assume we're supposed to read that as a true and happy ending for her.

Japan has the idea of class S, so on a societal level there is the widespread idea that intimate, romantic relationships between girls is a mark of immaturity and something to be outgrown with adulthood. Western cultures have similar ideas, just not under as-clearly-defined terms ("homosexuality is just a phase", LUGs, etc.).

The idea still kills the stories, for me. It makes me sad, when happily ever after, really reads, happy until one girl discovers boys, and breaks the other girl's heart.

So the nurse rejecting her experience with Touma and instead resigning herself to her arranged, heterosexual marriage can easily be interpreted as her giving up on her inner girl for the sake of her womanhood. I generally agree with the theme that one shouldn't have to completely give up their inner child in order to become an adult.

I think the entire concept, of getting married is a natural part of growing up is wrong. Whether the teacher is gay or not, is of no consequence. If she feels the need to meet a man and have a family, that's her choice. She shouldn't do it just so she can feel like an adult. She should definitely not be doing it so her mother will approve.

I know the japanese are more traditional in their beliefs, about marriage. That doesn't make the teacher's choice less tragic. In parts of Africa, they circumcise little girls. I doubt people would defend a character, who caved in to her mother's wishes, and multilated her daughter, just because that was just part of growing up.

I'm not sure which of Takemiya Jin's works gave you that idea? I can't remember any of her stories that ended with a happy het marriage. I don't doubt you, I honestly don't remember.

I'm mainly thinking of Fragments of Love, chapter 1. Ends with a woman who harboured some regrets about her past, some doubts about her sexuality, finds out that she could be happy with a woman if she wanted to, but ultimately decides to marry and have kids, and is strongly implied to have earnestly found happiness that way. I'm also assuming that the woman wasn't exactly head-over-heels in love with her prospective husband at the time, if she was still concerned that she might not even be interested in men.

It's not quite the same situation as what we've been talking about, and a lot of the important details are largely up for interpretation, but the overall impression I get is that there's space in Takemiya Jin's work for characters to choose a traditional arranged marriage, and be perfectly happy and fulfilled by it. I contrast this with how marriage tends to be depicted by Amano Shuninta, i.e. a bland and unfulfilling burden that you put up with while finding socially unacceptable ways to make your life interesting.

To be clear, I'm not really talking about what the author's themselves believe about real life - I'm thinking specifically about the kind of attitudes I expect to find in their work. It's more about the kinds of stories they tend to write, their typical genre choices and narrative tendencies, than anything else. So I'm not saying that Amano Shuninta definitely thinks of marriage as a miserable trap for unhappy women, just that those are the only kinds of marriages she's interested in writing about. So when she depicts a woman sealing away her youthfulness to attend an omiai, I don't assume we're supposed to read that as a true and happy ending for her.

I just reread the chapter. It is a weird one. I'm not sure how to interpret it. I get the feeling, the character was straight, but her friend's confession confused her, so she needed to explore that option before she fully committed to her husband.

Is it me or she look like and even identical to “shane” from the “L” word!?… hmmm!!?

I'm in the camp who thinks Shuninta just likes to make people squirm. I do think there's plenty of underlying (well, surface level, too) social commentary within her works, but ultimately, I think she wants people to feel slightly disgusted after reading her stuff. It works! As I continue to keep reading it.

Which I should also point out, that disgusted feeling often leads to thoughts, questioning, and discussion, so she's achieving her goal. Or a goal, anyway.

A5PECT posted:

So the nurse rejecting her experience with Touma and instead resigning herself to her arranged, heterosexual marriage can easily be interpreted as her giving up on her inner girl for the sake of her womanhood. I generally agree with the theme that one shouldn't have to completely give up their inner child in order to become an adult.

I don't think she rejects the experience. She obviously didn't dislike it. She just realized that it is not "her" to indulge in that kind of thing, like the other female teachers. Her character is a slap in the face for this yuri-loving community, but I think that's what the author aimed for. Her characters are never simple, but they give a feel of being realistic.

It's funny how realistic the nurse is, in contrast to the conceptual Touma.

And I agree that adults that act like acting childish is beneath them are the worst kind of adults, but there are times, places and occasions to do that. A school is exactly the kind of place you SHOULDN'T act childish when you're in a position of authority.

Interesting. So first page from chapter 2 is actually missing.

So finally looked at the thing that Reejun mentioned and it is indeed a blatant mistranslation in this case.
"Maybe put your bangs down? They'll make you look a bit younger."
"It's fine."

last edited at May 1, 2018 6:49PM