S&M couple #2?
I understand why people think Yuki is annoying, and i feels bad for Nazuki... but somehow I get the feeling that Nazuki is a masochist and Yuki... well, they kinda suit each other.

What the heck is even going on with this story by this point. Is this Mochi coming up with random scenarios as they come to mind.

I guess it's like people said, Nazuki is head over heels for that poor little (devilish) puppy she rescued (or was forced to rescue). Yuki just seduced/manipulated Nazuki and she fell for it, the balance of power in their relationship has been established and by going along with it, Nazuki gave consent, somehow. And the way she is blushing, the thoughts she has, I'm pretty sure she enjoys it. Or at least, she considers that the reward is worth the humiliation (though she has pretty low standards considering she just slept with her hours before).

There are slight differences, but it reminds me of this pair with the tsundere and the masochist in Virgins Empire. Especially this (hot) chapter where the tsundere is making the masochist do embarrassing stuff publicly, manipulating emotionally and breaking her hard. And we see, as we do with Nazuki, thanks to her thought bubbles, that she is enjoying this.

Mochi au lait is just going into the kinky territory... I like it.

And thank you to you, Stan Miller, for enduring those chapters that makes you uncomfortable, all that for our own (guilty?) pleasure! I love all of your works <3

last edited at Jan 18, 2018 9:11AM

Mochi au lait is just going into the kinky territory... I like it.

It's not kink unless it's actually been discussed and agreed upon by all involved parties. Otherwise it's just plain old abuse.

Well, this being fiction, I'm fine with playing a bit more loose with the rules. Unlike irl, we can peak into everyone's head and see that they seem to be fairly fine with this development. And the situation is not of the type where I'd say she's totally at someone else's mercy ...

... quite unlike what's happening to Kuki and what she had previously done, which I both find much more worrying ;p

It's not kink unless it's actually been discussed and agreed upon by all involved parties. Otherwise it's just plain old abuse.

In real life, yes; then again, there are people who enjoys being abused perhaps even without consent, "sweet dreams are made of these, [...] some of them wants to be abused" to quote that famous song. That doesn't mean it's okay that it happens, obviously, since you can't really know if that's the case or not. And even if people enjoys it and give consent*, that doesn't mean it's good for them either (I'll spare you the most extreme examples that happened). But it happens, so I think we can make it into a story.

And this is fiction, no one is really hurt over there. Moreover, it is a 4-6 pages comedic story, where everything has to be exaggerated (e.g. basically any old cartoon stuff) and a discussion about "would you legally/emotionally agree for me to abuse you publicly for both our gratification or just mine" kind of break the mood of this kind of play and lower its impact.

I know I'm fighting a losing battle in here, but I guess I can't help it... Am I a forum-masochist?!

Well, this being fiction, I'm fine with playing a bit more loose with the rules. Unlike irl, we can peak into everyone's head and see that they seem to be fairly fine with this development. And the situation is not of the type where I'd say she's totally at someone else's mercy ...

QFT.

last edited at Jan 18, 2018 9:26AM

THROW ME OVER THE EDGE MOCHI PLEASE.

Something tells me she either knows she got her sister arrested or she's tsundere to the EXTREME level

I also got the impression that she knows Nazuki got her sister arrested.
OR, that really just is her true colors (wich would be worse, because like most here, I also didn't like this chapter, the next chapter is nice tho).

Except they already told us that the sister didn't really get arrested. We don't know what's happening there otherwise.

Lol. That's wild. In spite of the incestuous nature of probably half of the pairings, it took I think Kuki creeping and now this to trigger the myriad of red flags for readers.

I'm definitely not defending these things either. I just thought it was funny.

It is about an incestuous family, by what amounts to the now best known yuri incest author, and is clearly tagged with Incest. Anyone triggered by incest who comes complaining in this thread has obviously taken a wrong turn at some point. It would be like watching "Code Geass" and complaining about it being mecha.

On the other hand, some of the gags becoming unpleasant after a while (the weak-bladder actress), or characters doing morally questionable things without having some likeable quality to offset this (like the new loli), are stuff that is bound to raise some negativity, though I doubt it has become an actual red flag as of yet.

last edited at Jan 18, 2018 9:52AM

I remember the masochist in Virgin Empire and that was done well, you could tell both were having a good time, both blushing and stuff with exhibitionism (which I happen to enjoy), doing kinky things... But this is just degradation, blackmailing and insulting, the loli's face is emotionless except for the face of disgust she shows sometimes... The other girl is just a pervert with no self value, even their first night I was like ????? so I guess if you're not into bdsm there's nothing in this pair that you could enjoy, not the sex, the humor or interactions.

I feel like each post about this topic makes Miller feel more awkward during translation so I guess I'll shut up now... Good thing the next one will be good? I trust the user who said it!

last edited at Jan 18, 2018 12:00PM

Tell me one couple that doesn't have one character getting humiliated or embarrassed.

Lol. That's wild. In spite of the incestuous nature of probably half of the pairings, it took I think Kuki creeping and now this to trigger the myriad of red flags for readers.

I'm definitely not defending these things either. I just thought it was funny.

It is about an incestuous family, by what amounts to the now best known yuri incest author, and is clearly tagged with Incest. Anyone triggered by incest who comes complaining in this thread has obviously taken a wrong turn at some point. It would be like watching "Code Geass" and complaining about it being mecha.

On the other hand, some of the gags becoming unpleasant after a while (the weak-bladder actress), or characters doing morally questionable things without having some likeable quality to offset this (like the new loli), are stuff that is bound to raise some negativity, though I doubt it has become an actual red flag as of yet.

I agree with everything you said, but it's ironic that you used Code Geass as an example since it originally wasn't supposed to have mecha in it until Sunrise remembered that they're Sunrise and that Sunrise always puts mecha in their Sunrise shows. ...Sunrise.

I agree with everything you said, but it's ironic that you used Code Geass as an example since it originally wasn't supposed to have mecha in it until Sunrise remembered that they're Sunrise and that Sunrise always puts mecha in their Sunrise shows. ...Sunrise.

commits seppuku "Code Geass" and KnM are the only shows with mecha I watched, so my options were limited...

1. I don't consider that girl a loli, I mean, loli is prepuber, you know? Not a flat girl o.o
2. I need to know if the sister, when she said "I'm not into this" was lying x'D

Tell me one couple that doesn't have one character getting humiliated or embarrassed.

Tell me one couple in the entirety of yuri that doesn't have one character getting embarrassed.

Lol, I know what a literal loli is, I was using the term loosely, like when people call girls from SW "pantsu lolis", or GuP "tank lolis", or examples like Lyza from MiA, despite all of them clearly not being prepubescent. If short and sufficiently flat --> loli.

The other girl is just a pervert with no self value, even their first night I was like ????? so I guess if you're not into bdsm there's nothing in this pair that you could enjoy, not the sex, the humor or interactions.

Or that, yes. In Virgins Empire, the emotional manipulation is really, really strong, the words "break me more" speaks volume about how the other girls affect her and make her forget any self-respect, I guess it's the same for Nazuki who fell head over heels for Yuki, apparently... That said, I agree it's way more sweet (and intense) in Virgins Empire than in this one.

However, it's still a comedic story, so stuff like that (normally) get a pass more easily than in other kind of stories, except when people try to put a serious filter over it.

[...] or examples like Lyza from MiA, [...].

Lyza the Annihilator <3 best character ever in this manga. There is a doujin of Ozen x Lyza I got my hand on, it's a pretty ambiguous relationship between Ozen and Lyza when she's a child, Ozen is deliciously unsettling just like in the main story. I'm tormented between wanting to understand what stuff is said and not betraying the author... Pretty hypocrite, I know, but...

last edited at Jan 18, 2018 9:55PM

Or that, yes. In Virgins Empire, the emotional manipulation is really, really strong, the words "break me more" speaks volume about how the other girls affect her and make her forget any self-respect

I think you kind of missed what Serenata was on about, in "Virgins' Empire" there is no emotional manipulation. No one is being manipulated, Yuu and Mari are in it as equals. Unlike this new Mochi chapter, where the loli blatantly plays to her unfortunate bed partner's weaknesses with no regards shown for her feelings.

Lyza the Annihilator <3 best character ever in this manga. There is a doujin of Ozen x Lyza I got my hand on, it's pretty ambiguous relationship between Ozen and Lyza when she's a child, Ozen is deliciously unsettling just like in the main story. I'm tormented between wanting to understand what stuff is said and not betraying the author... Pretty hypocrite, I know, but...

Betray! Lol, I am kidding, but I would love to see more Lyza/Ozen, the latter was definitely gay for the former, in my opinion.

I thought it was pretty annoying too until the second last panel on https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/yuri_natsu_kagaya_inn_ch34#5, then I realized Nazuki isn't really being forced into anything, and the story hasn't lost its lighthearted nature.

But those eyes annoy the hell outta me

I thought it was pretty annoying too until the second last panel on https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/yuri_natsu_kagaya_inn_ch34#5, then I realized Nazuki isn't really being forced into anything, and the story hasn't lost its lighthearted nature.

But those eyes annoy the hell outta me

That panel was supposed to be the punchline of the entire chapter. The way I saw this one:

Black eyed girl is being completely unreasonable, and Nazuki is mentally rolling her eyes the whole time. Finally weird girl makes a ridiculous demand, and Nazuki decides to say "whatever" and just do it because she wants the kiss. This is not a serious situation and I think people either misunderstood or overreacted to the power dynamic between them.

I think you kind of missed what Serenata was on about, in "Virgins' Empire" there is no emotional manipulation.

Kinda. It's not entirely apparent but the stare on p2 is clearly a threat "if you don't do it, then...", there's also the "I hate you, goodbye" part in a previous chapter. It's clearly mild threats compared to the ones in this chapter, obviously, but the manipulation is here. I'd guess the key difference is consent between the two parties (at least implicit in Virgins' Empire's case).

And I may be wrong, but isn't the whole point of BDSM to have a dynamic of power with a dominant and dominated? One enjoying having complete or some kind of control over the other and the latter one enjoying being manipulated to some point by the former? So they wouldn't be really equals. It's partly rhetoric questions, partly genuine. This is how I understand it, so I may be wrong.

Though, I guess it depends on the type of manipulation we're talking about. Yuki's manipulation is clearly malicious and doesn't really have Hazuki's enjoyment as well in mind. Hazuki's (apparent) submissive nature doesn't allow her to defend herself correctly against it.

Black eyed girl is being completely unreasonable, and Nazuki is mentally rolling her eyes the whole time. Finally weird girl makes a ridiculous demand, and Nazuki decides to say "whatever" and just do it because she wants the kiss. This is not a serious situation and I think people either misunderstood or overreacted to the power dynamic between them.

I guess that's what I failed to say, but I very much agree.

last edited at Jan 18, 2018 9:58PM

Kinda. It's not entirely apparent but the stare on p2 is clearly a threat "if you don't do it, then...", there's also the "I hate you, goodbye" part in a previous chapter. It's clearly mild threats compared to the ones in this chapter, obviously, but the manipulation is here. I'd guess the key difference is consent between the two parties (at least implicit in Virgins' Empire's case).

I do not think that counts as manipulation. It would if you had Mari going without band-aids, Yuu storming off in protest, and Mari only just then putting them on to appease her. Instead, she already arrived wearing them. She is clearly embarrassed, but that is her thing, it is obvious she is just as into it as Yuu is, that is what I meant by them being equals. Remember, at the end, she was downright disappointed Yuu worked over only one of her nipples. It is a play for them, but it is also blatantly obvious they care for each other, best exemplified by chapter 71.

And I may be wrong, but isn't the whole point of BDSM to have a dynamic of power with a dominant and dominated? One enjoying having complete or some kind of control over the other and the latter one enjoying being manipulated to some point by the former? So they wouldn't be really equals. It's partly rhetoric questions, partly genuine. This is how I understand it, so I may be wrong.

Important to remember is that it is a role-play, so there is no actual control over anyone (as in, making someone do what they do not want to), nor is anyone being manipulated. Being manipulated means you are steered in a particular course that you would not otherwise choose, and you are being steered by someone else, without you actually noticing it. There is nothing of the sort in BDSM. The submissive party can, at any point, call the whole thing off by the use of a safe word, therefore, the control of the proceedings (as in, to stop) is actually in the hands of the one being dominated. It is a play, not an actual act of being forced into submission.

Though, I guess it depends on the type of manipulation we're talking about. Yuki's manipulation is clearly malicious and doesn't really have Hazuki's enjoyment as well in mind. Hazuki's (apparent) submissive nature doesn't allow her to defend herself correctly against it.

Basically. Though I would not call it manipulation, more like straight up bullying into submission.

Black eyed girl is being completely unreasonable, and Nazuki is mentally rolling her eyes the whole time. Finally weird girl makes a ridiculous demand, and Nazuki decides to say "whatever" and just do it because she wants the kiss. This is not a serious situation and I think people either misunderstood or overreacted to the power dynamic between them.

Then it was badly presented, because that was not the first impression I got after reading it. It was not even a second, or third impression. These are short, funny (at least, they are supposed to be) gags, if I have to over-analyse certain panels to get it, it is failing in its job.

last edited at Jan 18, 2018 11:12PM

Tell me one couple that doesn't have one character getting humiliated or embarrassed.

Tell me one couple in the entirety of yuri that doesn't have one character getting embarrassed.

They just get shy. Couples dinamic which one have the role to get humiliated is fuel for this manga gags. Not a problem but it get repetitive for me.

I do not think that counts as manipulation. It would if you had Mari going without band-aids, Yuu storming off in protest, and Mari only just then putting them on to appease her. Instead, she already arrived wearing them. She is clearly embarrassed, but that is her thing, it is obvious she is just as into it as Yuu is, that is what I meant by them being equals.

I'm just nitpicking at this point, but she clearly says "like hell I'm gonna do this", so it's not something she wanted to do at first. The kind of manipulation you're talking about is happening in the restaurant scene, though.

In terms of pleasure, like you say, they're equals. It's clearly a win-win situation. But in terms of power dynamic aone, I think they're not : Mari enjoys being toyed with and "tormented" by Yuu, even though she doesn't want to do it at first, she likes being "forced" into doing it. Even outside their play, Yuu seems to be bossing Mari around, but that doesn't really differ from every other couple, I guess.

Remember, at the end, she was downright disappointed Yuu worked over only one of her nipples. It is a play for them, but it is also blatantly obvious they care for each other, best exemplified by chapter 71.

Yes, that's what makes it even more enjoyable. The reversal and the fact that Yuu may very well be the more vulnerable one in the end is also pretty cute. So perhaps their power dynamic changes with time, contrary to what I'm saying.

Important to remember is that it is a role-play, so there is no actual control over anyone (as in, making someone do what they do not want to), nor is anyone being manipulated.

Role-play requires rules, a controlled environment, a clear beginning and a clear end. Mari and Yuu are doing it as it comes, with no apparent rules or only implied ones. It looks more like a game of dare with both of them enjoying to see how far one will push it and how far the other will go. Hence why I think Yuu is manipulating Mari and is the dominant one in their games (also the spanking is a quite strong indication as well). Sadly, I feel like I'm getting way too much off-topic despite the interesting dynamic of the couple.

Being manipulated means you are steered in a particular course that you would not otherwise choose, and you are being steered by someone else, without you actually noticing it.

That is what is happening minus the last part, I guess that's where my idea of manipulation differ and, perhaps, where I wrongly use the word. They also mention the malicious side of the act, even though it's not always the case.

last edited at Jan 19, 2018 11:04PM

Did I just see an uncensored cockroach in a manga?