I don't know if Sakura Trick is the best example of a non-subtext anime considering... those idiots ain't even in a relationship 'cause "THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT LOVE IS." Same goes for Flip Flappers, Izetta, and Princess Principal since the couples in all these anime still remain subtext to the end... I only did watch FliFla though, so I might be wrong about the other two. I mean, you'd have to be fucking blind, deaf, and willfully ignorant to not notice that Cocona and Papika are in a 'ship, and the director did come out and say "yes, they're dating," but, still, I'd have liked a kiss at the end or something. At least PriPri (hey, I wonder if anyone actually calls it that) is still ongoing so, who knows, perhaps they'll have a legitimate kiss after they saw how successful FliFla was? (I hope it was successful anyway, I dunno if it actually was).

You know, this is completely unrelated to the topic, I've always appreciated Kuzu no Honkai and Kiss Him Not Me for their fairly respectful portrayals of lesbians. Yeah, the lesbian character in KnH doesn't get the girl and I don't expect the lesbian in Kiss Him Not Me to get the girl either, but their love is both treated as legitimate affection as opposed to just schoolgirl puppy love or whatever... which is exactly the same as New Game, ain't it? Well, at least they actually act on their affection and, in the case of KnH's lesbian, actually have some fun (more like miserable but yeah) sexy times with their crush (the one thing that bothered me about KnH was that Hanabi said she was a virgin after she had sex with Ecchan... I guess she's going by the 'penis in vagina' definition of virginity, but, still, HOW THE FUCK IS FINGERING NOT SEX. Ecchan's creep cousin also bothered me a bit, but there's no indication that she reciprocates his love so FUCK YOU DUDE).

And the whole KyoAni thing is way overblown. What shows have they done that are queerbait except for Hibike?

I guess you could count Kobayashi-san as queerbait from a certain POV (I don't but some do). I hear Tamako Market had some queerbaiting, but I haven't watched it, so I wouldn't know... I did hear that it has a trans character too, so that's cool. I haven't watched Haruhi Suzumiya, but she's apparently bi and sexually harasses that redhead all the time? Seems like standard shitty CGDCT antics, but I dunno if that's accurate. I felt a bit... queerbaited by K-On, but that's probably 'cause I watched it just 'cause I liked the ships and I wanted to see more of it (Mugi is great though, definitely). Apparently, that Chunnibyou thing has those two chicks... what are their names, uh, Shinkai and Dekibo? Then there's Lucky Star and Kagami and Konata, but that's probably a bit overblown (I haven't watched that either, by the way). I think Free has some queerbait too, but I'm not qutie sure about that one. And, of course, HIBIKE. So, yeah, that's... like 9 out of 23, a bit more than 1/3 of their works... of course, this is all debatable especially considering I only watched 2 out of 9 of those things, but still, it seems like their reputation for queerbaiting is well-earned.

last edited at Aug 12, 2017 1:36PM

You can start comparing New Game to Euphonium when Aoba starts going out with a boy she previously barely spoke to, Hifumi starts pining after Eagle Jump's much older male CEO, they both stop talking to each other, and the Mangaka gives some interviews talking about how Aoba and Hifumi were "closer than romance" and then extolling the romantic virtues of Generic Childhood Friend #40

Same goes for Flip Flappers

We're talking about a show in which the two female leads repeatedly declare their love for each other and ultimately defeat the protaganist's evil, disapproving mother with the power of their love, complete with armored wedding dresses, right?

I mean they don't kiss, sure, but I'd say that probably has more to do with the writers not wanting to have a couple of 13 year olds get too physical with eachother, and if you need an on-screen kiss to count a romance as "real" then you're going to find that a whole lot of straight romance fails to meet that bar just as well.

last edited at Aug 12, 2017 1:43PM

You can start comparing New Game to Euphonium when Aoba starts going out with a boy she previously barely spoke to, Hifumi starts pining after Eagle Jump's much older male CEO, they both stop talking to each other, and the Mangaka gives some interviews talking about how Aoba and Hifumi were "closer than romance" and then extolling the romantic virtues of Generic Childhood Friend #40

God damn it, this thread is really just making me hate Hibike even more. We can only hope that never happens in New Game... good thing there are zero important male characters and almost no male characters at all. The only ones that I can remember off the top of my head are Yun's younger brother, Soujirou, and that gay dude (Hana-chan apparently), but, you know, one's like six, one's gay, and one's a freaking hedgehog, so I'm not really too concerned there... Surely, they wouldn't ever canonize Yun x Yun's brother and Hifumi x Soujirou, right? SURELY? I always hear that shows queerbait 'cause they want to avoid the controversy that often comes up over including gay peeps, so SURELY THEY WOULDN'T CANONIZE PEDOPHILIC INCEST AND BESTIALITY, RIGHT?

Same goes for Flip Flappers

We're talking about a show in which the two female leads repeatedly declare their love for each other and ultimately defeat the protaganist's evil, disapproving mother with the power of their love, complete with armored wedding dresses, right?

I mean they don't kiss, sure, but I'd say that probably has more to do with the writers not wanting to have a couple of 13 year olds get too physical with eachother, and if you need an on-screen kiss to count a romance as "real" then you're going to find that a whole lot of straight romance fails to meet that bar just as well.

I had actually forgotten about that whole armored wedding dress scene, so thanks for reminding me... The Class-S parody episode and the episode with all those different versions of Papika (I'm sure glad that those apparently male versions were actually female too, that was cool) which ended in succubus Papika lying on the bed in a locked room with Cocona were pretty blatant too, huh... I would say they should at least say "I love you," but Papika must've said that like 10 times per episode. I don't think Cocona ever said it though, so THERE, I'M RIGHT. But, seriously, the BDSM mistress or whatever she was and that Yayaka-focused episode were pretty damn blatant too, so... yeah, I can admit that I was wrong here. That said, I'm not asking for 13-year olds to get too physical with one another, and, hell, I doubt they'd even care anyway considering how they were sexualized so often... it's sad, I was planning on recommending this to friends 'cause it didn't have any fanservice, but then came Episode 3 with its BDSM themes, the many shower scenes, the mecha ass shot or whatever, and that fucking blue-haired girl, whatever her name was. The BDSM thing was fairly important to the plot, I hear the mecha ass shot's a parody of Code Geass, and there's some speculation that the blue-haired girl was just a red herring (still doesn't explain why her clothes are so skimpy but whatever), so I can concede that they're at least somewhat necessary, but those shower scenes were all unnecessary... I don't think it's a big deal, I'm just wondering why it was even included... okay, whatever, I'm getting off topic. Yeah, I don't want 13-year olds getting physical either, but I don't see any problems with a light kiss on the lips or whatever. It'd be nice if it happened, it's still okay that it didn't, but, yeah, it would've been a nice way to further solidify their relationship.

I don't think PriPri and Izetta had any combat scenes in matching wedding dresses, so there's that much... I guess I'm right about those two, at least? (we'll have to see what's in store for PriPri though).

Edit: This is completely random, but I've always thought that Yuri Kuma Arashi and FliFla were a bit similar in that they're both lesbian coming-of-age stories disguised under several layers of utter insanity. I'd say YKA was more subtle while FliFla was... not, but I liked FliFla more in the end, if only because of the pretty animation as opposed to YKA's meh animation.

last edited at Aug 12, 2017 10:23PM

I don't recall Haruhi showing any sort of romantic interest in girls outside of enjoying teasing the one girl. Which can't really be called romantic.

Lucky Star was a product (and embodiment) of the moe culture at the time and was pretty clearly never really meant to be serious in that aspect.

Tamako had one character say a single ambiguous line. You'd need some actual development on the point before you could seriously call it anything.

K-ON was... well, I don't really remember anything actually going very far into even the realm of subtext outside of Mugi looking at everything with yuri-goggles. But it's been years since I watched it.

I honestly don't recall there being the slightest yuri aspect in chuunibyou. Though I didn't really like it so I never watched the second season.

I had actually forgotten about that whole armored wedding dress scene, so thanks for reminding me... The Class-S parody episode and the episode with all those different versions of Papika (I'm sure glad that those apparently male versions were actually female too, that was cool) which ended in succubus Papika lying on the bed in a locked room with Cocona... I would say they should at least say "I love you," but Papika must've said that like 10 times per episode. I don't think Cocona ever said it though, so THERE, I'M RIGHT.

It's when Cocona yells out that she loves Papika is when they break away from Mimi's influence completely and don the armored wedding dresses.

I don't think PriPri and Izetta had any combat scenes in matching wedding dresses, so there's that much... I guess I'm right about those two, at least? (we'll have to see what's in store for PriPri though).

For Izetta they have a very romantic magic broom ride scene which resembles a certain magic carpet ride(without the singing). Ends with a fade out kiss.

For PriPri the princess and the lizard's whole motivation for all this spy shit is simply so that they can be together. Lizard wants to run away together to a white house in the country while Princess wants to take control of the monarchy and change the country so it doesn't matter who knows that they are together. Also a nice little scene during a mission when Princess tells Lizard that she should wear her hair down like she used to, Lizard says she hates her old self, Princess then says that it's her old self that she loves so much.

last edited at Aug 12, 2017 6:27PM

Aw i like the new girls
Momo seems like someone a bit more anxious than the carefree Naru
I like her dynamic with Aoba
It's like, similar to Aoba's desire to catch up to Kou, but because they're the same age, there's a different feeling to it
Ah yeah, even if Aoba has seniority, they have this rivalry feel. That's nice, Aoba getting a rival that's more or less on the same footing as her
I feel really proud of Aoba, how far she came, and how Momo was acknowledging her

Aw i like the new girls

Same here. Does this enough to make you change your best girl? (They almost got me though) XD

Momo seems like someone a bit more anxious than the carefree Naru

I positive that Naru have some side of personality that not show to us yet. Some serious side that completely override her carefree and cheerful side. I hope.

I am interested about relationships of new characters and the rest of the office will turn out. Especially Nene and Naru. Two playful personality stay with each other's is always interesting.

@moguTL (don't feel like quoting, this is easier, heh)

If I remember correctly, all the yuri stuff in Chuunibyou happened in S2 and the OVA. Of course, I haven't actually watched it so I dunno but yeah. Also, I looked it up and it's apparently Dekomori and Nibutani, cool names.

Tamako, Lucky Star, and Haruhi, I can definitely concede I'm wrong here. I know that just having a TV Tropes Ho Yay page doesn't count for much... but K-On has a TV Tropes Ho Yay page. That's pretty much why I watched it. I do remember being disappointed 'cause there was not nearly as much yuri as I would have liked from something which I had been led to believe was yuri (but which is not), but I still watched it to the end 'cause it was still a pretty solid anime.

@Cannibal

Ah, so Izetta and PriPri actually are that blatant about the yuri, huh... well, I guess that's two more anime to add to the huge backlog then. Thanks for telling me more about them!

"You don't need to force yourself to drink it STRAIGHT."
What did she mean by this?

"You don't need to force yourself to drink it STRAIGHT."
What did she mean by this?

Drinking it black, I'm pretty sure.

Aw i like the new girls

Same here. Does this enough to make you change your best girl? (They almost got me though) XD

Never. My best girl will always be Hifumi u_u
I can still like the other girls a lot tho lmao, i find everyone really likable

Wow the discourse sure is fresh on this fine summer day D=
I actually don't have any problem with New Game!!'s subtext-so-close-to-canon (wrt KouRin).. it does get frustrating that they're going nowhere at least not Rin, but Kou is packing her bags for France apparently lolol but we're all used to subtext at this point. I have faith in Tokunou too that he'll never put in any important male character/random het since he made that Sakura Trick doujin. Overall New Game!! is just like Lucky Star for me, a moe comedy, and you get exactly what it advertises on the tin. Though maybe when NG ends we'll finally get some resolution?

Yamato might top Ahagon as my favorite character omg.. intense tsun vibes lol. Also what's up with the reintroduction of Mozuku the cat to Aoba and co.? There were plenty of chapters before this with him in the panels weren't there? I might be mixing that up with the anime hmm, idk

last edited at Aug 13, 2017 1:17AM

It really speaks to how faithful the season 1 anime adaptation was that the author can introduce an anime-exclusive character for the first time and everyone is confused, seriously remembering that character appearing in the manga.

I know that just having a TV Tropes Ho Yay page doesn't count for much... but K-On has a TV Tropes Ho Yay page. That's pretty much why I watched it. I do remember being disappointed 'cause there was not nearly as much yuri as I would have liked from something which I had been led to believe was yuri (but which is not), but I still watched it to the end 'cause it was still a pretty solid anime.

So you're less mad about it being yuri-bait and more mad that someone lied to you about it being yuri at all.

last edited at Aug 13, 2017 2:10AM

I had actually forgotten about that whole armored wedding dress scene, so thanks for reminding me... The Class-S parody episode and the episode with all those different versions of Papika (I'm sure glad that those apparently male versions were actually female too, that was cool) which ended in succubus Papika lying on the bed in a locked room with Cocona were pretty blatant too, huh... I would say they should at least say "I love you," but Papika must've said that like 10 times per episode. I don't think Cocona ever said it though, so THERE, I'M RIGHT.

She did actually, at least twice. One before they gear up in wedding dress in ep 12, and another right at the climax in ep 13.

How could you forget that blatant confession in last episode? Cocona not only said "I love you". But that was also after admitting to Papika's "I Love love love you". And followed with "I am the same.... I love you. It absolutely has to be you"

Not to mention, don't tell me this closing shot is not romantic...
http://imgur.com/1NNjFoY

last edited at Aug 13, 2017 2:56AM

Well, I have bad memory, I somehow forgot Cocona's declarations of love but remembered all of Papika's... though Papika said it much more often, so I at least guess I have that excuse... and, yes, the closing shot was unambiguously romantic.

So you're less mad about it being yuri-bait and more mad that someone lied to you about it being yuri at all.

Well, I guess saying I thought it was yuri at all is a bit inaccurate since I knew from the beginning that it definitely isn't... what I did expect was more of it than that which ended up appearing in the anime proper thanks to how long the Ho Yay page is. I wouldn't really say I was mad about it. I was just disappointed and, frankly, kind of bored toward the end. I'm not a huge fan of CGDCT anime; it's only particularly blatant yuri that makes it worth watching for me. Or if they involve peeps working at a video game company... Of course, I don't mean to criticize anyone, it's just not a genre I particularly like... thanks to the subtext (and actual honest-to-God yuri, can't discount that either), I've already ended up watching like 6 and reading innumerable amounts of manga though. Perfect example of how they rope you in in with copious amounts of subtext... (I'm definitely not complaining though, Sakura Trick, KinMoza, YuruYuri, Non Non Biyori, K-On, Gakkou Garashi, and this thing are all excellent)

last edited at Aug 14, 2017 9:24AM

Speaking as a TV Tropes editor, don't use the Ho Yay pages. They're a desolate mixture of validity and nonsense.

Also, this might get me lynched, but, considering the narrative arc and how the drama went, there's no real way the Hibake anime could've avoided what happened with Reina. Her character in the novels is so tied to her crush on Taki that excising it would've basically left her without a purpose in the plot. Oh, and Kumiko didn't end up with Shuichi in the anime (and I've heard that only happened in the novels due to editorial interference anyway).

Speaking as a TV Tropes editor, don't use the Ho Yay pages. They're a desolate mixture of validity and nonsense.

Also, this might get me lynched, but, considering the narrative arc and how the drama went, there's no real way the Hibake anime could've avoided what happened with Reina. Her character in the novels is so tied to her crush on Taki that excising it would've basically left her without a purpose in the plot. Oh, and Kumiko didn't end up with Shuichi in the anime (and I've heard that only happened in the novels due to editorial interference anyway).

Yeah I don't really blame KyoAni for how Eupho turned out given what I've read of the books. But the books are simply bad - not because Reina has a crush on Taki but because she never realizes what a shallow and unhealthy fixation she has on him, and because nobody else ever bothers to tell her, and because the books actively set up Kumiko and Reina's relationship using language any half-way decent writer would know most readers would take as romantic (for god's sake this is a book series that features Kumiko idly fantasizing about nibbling on Reina's ear, even aside from the multiple times they tell each other they love each other - Eupho goes way way way beyond the sort of subtext you'd see in a K-On or even a Love Live) and then have Kumiko abruptly drop any such interest in Reina without even acknowledging that she's done so. This isn't even entirely a shipping thing - any time a story spends a ton of time going "HEY LOOK AT THIS THING IT'S SUPER IMPORTANT INVEST YOUR EMOTIONAL ENERGY IN THIS" and then botches the ending, and then doesn't even acknowledge that it does so, it's going to get a lot of pushback. Imagine if, after spending the backend of one movie and the front end of another agonizing over how he doesn't want to fight Darth Vader, his father, Luke had simply iced the motherfucker in the middle of the third movie, shrugged, and gone on with his life as though the whole thing had never bothered him at all. That's ridiculous, right? And even if you could twist amd torture your understanding of the characters into a place where this halfway makes sense, it's still not a particularly resonant story, right? It's also the equivalent of how Euphonium's author handles a critical character relationship. Even if she had some asshole producer sitting over her shoulder demanding that Kumiko or Reina end up with a boy at the end of the day, there were a thousand better ways to handle it than what she came up with, including simply not constantly framing Kumiko and Reina romantically/sexually to begin with.

last edited at Aug 14, 2017 6:16PM

Speaking as a TV Tropes editor, don't use the Ho Yay pages. They're a desolate mixture of validity and nonsense.

Also, this might get me lynched, but, considering the narrative arc and how the drama went, there's no real way the Hibake anime could've avoided what happened with Reina. Her character in the novels is so tied to her crush on Taki that excising it would've basically left her without a purpose in the plot. Oh, and Kumiko didn't end up with Shuichi in the anime (and I've heard that only happened in the novels due to editorial interference anyway).

Oh yeah, the Ho Yay pages have definitely led me astray countless times. I mean, the anime these pages (and RWBY's) led me to watch were still quite solid, but... yeah, it definitely left me a bit aching for a bit more yuri involving the characters. At least K-On and RWBY have avid shipping communities (maybe not so much anymore in the case of K-On, but RWBY definitely does) and truckloads of decent doujins and fanfics and whatever else to enjoy, but I can't say the thing for KinMoza or YuruYuri... (frankly, those were both gay enough to satisfy me though).

As for Hibike, my impressions of the KumiRei ship from someone who never actually watched it was that Reina is the cool, collected type and Kumiko is the hyperactive bundle of joy or whatever. I'm not quite sure if Kumiko fits that archetype, but it seems like Reina does (of course, I'm probably mistaken). From what I've read of people who've actually watched the anime, they were pretty pissed that Reina's character was butchered in the second season in large part due to her crush on Taki although that may just be the reactions of pissed-off yuri fans (of which I would no doubt be a part if I watched Hibike myself). Anyway, that's a bit more disappointing to me than it is that the KumiRei ship ain't ever gonna sail... not really but you get my point. It is nice to hear that the Kumiko and Shuichi thing was the result of editorial interference though; KyoAni did make Kobayashi-san, after all, so they may perhaps be willing to canonize a yuri couple in Hibike after Kobayashi-san's success... it was successful, right? I'm sure they're powerful enough to just say "fuck you" to editors, but I'm sure they care about sales so... I dunno. They did apparently excise all the prominent Kumiko/Shuichi scenes in the anime, so, maybe, just maybe... I dunno what happens with Reina and Taki, but I hope that they don't actually hook up... well, maybe they do and his ass gets sent to jail, that'd be nice.

Edit: I just saw Spiritus' thing, so I'd like to comment on it a bit... well, it seems that Reina and Taki actually do end up together? For fuck's sake. Good thing I chose to avoid this shitstain. I guess that partly explains why peeps said her character was completely butchered, at least if she was set up to be the rational and restrained type like I think she is. Surely, the books/anime can't be that bad though, can it? The only criticism I really hear about it is its over-the-top queerbaiting and completely fucking horrendous relationships in general, but it seems like the general opinion is that the story aside from that is pretty decent. I was one of those people who wished that K-On would focus on the actual music once in a while, so it's nice that there's something that apparently does... even if I never will watch it 'cause of the aforementioned queerbaiting.

Also, dear God, this thread sure went off the rails. That's probably my fault, so I'll own up to it...

last edited at Aug 14, 2017 6:22PM

Reina doesn't end up with Taki, but the part of the story where you'd expect her to come to her senses and realize she's crushing on a widower she barely knows and who's 20 years her senior and that she should move on turns out being the part where Reina just doubles down on chasing him like a child. Also Kumiko barely says ANYTHING to her through this point or afterwards, instead fixating very heavily on Asuka who conveniently leaves at the end of the season before we can start expecting anything to come of THAT either.

This was all in the books and KyoAni does it's damndest to make a lot of it work, so I don't really blame them for how it turned out, but goddamn is the original text just a disaster at this point. It's a real shame, it was really really good up to that point, but Reina's arc just ends hideously terribly and it poisons everything around it. There's an off-chance that the author is playing people and the new novels/movies will fix it, but the way she's talking in interviews does NOT inspire confidence.

Unlike New Game, which is good and fundamentally respects the audience's investment in the characters.

last edited at Aug 14, 2017 6:41PM

Reina doesn't end up with Taki, but the part of the story where you'd expect her to come to her senses and realize she's crushing on a widower she barely knows and who's 20 years her senior and that she should move on turns out being the part where Reina just doubles down on chasing him like a child. Also Kumiko barely says ANYTHING to her through this point or afterwards, instead fixating very heavily on Asuka who conveniently leaves at the end of the season before we can start expecting anything to come of THAT either.

This was all in the books and KyoAni does it's damndest to make a lot of it work, so I don't really blame them for how it turned out, but goddamn is the original text just a disaster at this point.

Well, I'm glad that she at least didn't end up with him even if she does act like a complete idiot, that's a comforting thought. I think in that case that KumiRei still has a 99% chance of... not happening. Many peeps apparently support Kumika? Asiko? I dunno... too, so I was hoping that'd work out, but, nope, apparently she conveniently leaves at the end of the season.

I'm still holding on to the hope that something even remotely gay becomes canon in the movies. Probably not, but if it does... (I think I said this before but I'll say it again) I'm gonna binge watch the entire fucking series in a day. Did you hear that KyoAni? MAKE KUMIREI CANON AND YOU GET ONE DEVOTED FAN! PROBABLY DOESN'T MAKE UP FOR THE HUNDREDS WHO'LL STOP SUPPORTING ESPECIALLY 'CAUSE 1. I'M NOT JAPANESE NOR DO I LIVE IN JAPAN AND 2. I'M CHEAP BUT, STILL, PLEASE, KYOANI.

Ah... All this delicious freshmen rivalries, not to mention remembering all the different artists names. Soon you'll grow up and only care about your own work and 80% of the art u used to love suddenly doesn't feel special anymore as you become more aware of the flaws...

Yeah, I won't defend Reina's character arc. All it did was make her selfish and clingy, and in the end I don't think anyone really wanted her to end up with Kumiko after what she turned into. Kumiko's arc was fine though, and that's, you know the point of Hibake.

I know it's a bit hyperbolic to say on the Yuri based site, but maybe people shouldn't expect their desired ships to come true. Any hate I see on Hibake is left entirely on the lack of romantic resolution rather than the actual narrative of the story.

I know it's a bit hyperbolic to say on the Yuri based site, but maybe people shouldn't expect their desired ships to come true. Any hate I see on Hibake is left entirely on the lack of romantic resolution rather than the actual narrative of the story.

I loved Reina's rounded yet always dignified character from the first season, that and her relationship with Kumiko were what made me like the show. The way her "crush" was handled in the second season was silly and disrespectful. Even if someone like her did get a crush on their teacher, I couldn't accept them acting in such a childish manner for no good reason.

That's the fault of pacing IMO. Only the first novel (which the first season covered) really focused on Reina as a character. Thus, people got into their head that she was the secondary main character.

For a moment I thought this was the wrong thread lol, I just came to say that the anime just covered the promotional art issue. I really prefer Aoba's choice because of the background and mostly because Kou's remind me of a zombie poster
But I guess it was hard to convey a real difference in skill with a drawing inside an anime

last edited at Aug 15, 2017 12:21PM