As a Yuri fan we don't get many yuri manga/anime that are open about their sexuality. I can count those shows in one hand. (For example: Strawberry Panic, Akuma No Riddle, Yuri Kuma). There isn't any variety. Majority of yuri fans have to put on their yuri goggles and read between the lines or just use there imagination between two female characters that are friends. A lot of shows just add yuri subtext to appeal the male demographic or because the producers are scared of the backlash they will get if they go full on yuri. A medium should be about variety not the same overused traits.

I am one of those people that will complain about H!E because H!E isn't even subtext yuri. Why I say this as KumiXRei are just good friends. Yuri focuses on the sexual orientation or the romantic orientation aspects of the relationship. At this moment in season 1 Kumiko or Rei have not expressed any romantic desires or sexual desires towards each other. "Friendship arises out of mere Companionship when two or more of the companions discover that they have in common some insight or interest or even taste which the others do not share." Both KumikoXRei like music and are in the music club. They share similar interest; they have not expressed any interest towards each other, other than friendship in the anime series.

I have been a yuri fan for quite a few years now and I am tired of "friendship" being as subtext yuri. They are two different things. I’m not saying KumikoXRei won’t fall in love in the future but at the moment they are just friends. An example of a yuri subtext would be sailor moon with Haruka and Michiru. The comments that they make to each other have a yuri subtext. In one scene when Michiru is trying help Haruka up she comments that Haruka has gotten heavier. Haruka replies that they should leave that talk for the bedroom. That is yuri subtext they don't outright say they are in a relationship but there is a heavy context of a sexual aspect. I know complaining doesn’t help but being a yuri fan has jaded me. If you don't agree that's okay as everyone has different opinions, im just venting my frustrations with the yuri genera. At this point I doubt we will ever get a big budget yuri anime that has good developing characters, plot and animation. Yuri just doesn’t sell and that's the sad truth. This is heart-breaking to me. All I want is yuri but I will never get that. Yuri is love Yuri is life.

^This.

I am tired of "friendship" being as subtext yuri.

I think everyone hates "friendship" as being subtext in yuri. ( Including me )

At this point I doubt we will ever get a big budget yuri anime that has good developing characters, plot and animation. Yuri just doesn’t sell and that's the sad truth. This is heart-breaking to me. All I want is yuri but I will never get that. Yuri is love Yuri is life.

I wouldn't necessarily say that Yuri doesn't sell. I think "Yuri kuma arashi" sold pretty well. And Citrus has gotten pretty popular, I think at one point It was the 3rd or 1st highest ranked romance manga for a while. Also there is a chance that It might get an anime adaption, And If it does then that would probably be the thing that makes Anime producers realize that Yuri does sell. The same thing happened in America, "Sausage Party" was the first rated R animated film we got in a very long time and It was a huge success. And "Deadpool" was the first rated R superhero flick we got in a long time And that was a success as well. Both these films made producers realize that rated R Animated/superhero films can be a good thing. So we don't have to be so cynical about the lack of yuri in anime, Give it time.

Wow I can't believe this went from a debate about LL vs Citrus to a full on discussion about Yuri and its audience. And yeah, I know its my fault :|

last edited at Oct 3, 2016 3:35PM

Why I say this as KumiXRei are just good friends. Yuri focuses on the sexual orientation or the romantic orientation aspects of the relationship. At this moment in season 1 Kumiko or Rei have not expressed any romantic desires or sexual desires towards each other.

This is not true though. What kind of straight friend would act around their friend like these two did in episode 8? Or if one of your friends grabbed your face and went really close to your mouth, while you said this is a confession of love, wouldn't that be crossing the line of feeling like straight bffs?
You are talking about a very specific aspect of a relationship, which is the sexuality. Not everyone falls in love based on feeling sexually attracted to someone. Romantic attraction is not the same as sexual attraction. But from what you've said it seems as if there can be no romantic attraction and falling in love if there is no sexual attraction first.
Why would "yuri" should refer to sexuality only, while hetero includes romance and friendship that eventually evolves into romance as well? It is limitating.

I don't see why something should be very blatant about being sexually gay to be called yuri, it's not black and white. Straight couples don't need this to be shippable. I have seen people pairing two straight characters that don't have this, yet everyone finds it normal and don't need something very explicit to be able to ship them.

It's better to present a character as something more than their sexuality, because this is not everything they should be. Labeling something as yuri only if there is specifically sexual content , sometimes makes the characters be all that there is. So some authors tend to forget to give these characters more layers besides their sexuality. And this can sometimes make the relatiships more blant, as there is nothing more to that. No tension or a satisfiying backstory.

I don't see why something should be very blatant about being sexually gay to be called yuri, it's not black and white. Straight couples don't need this to be shippable. I have seen people pairing two straight characters that don't have this, yet everyone finds it normal and don't need something very explicit to be able to ship them.

This makes me think of something I consider a lot when thinking about yuri, and my own writing as well. What I want to see is a basis for attraction between the characters, and an awful lot of yuri, particularly one-shots, leaves that out. As much as Girl Friends gets bashed for taking such a long time to get to "the good stuff", it does a remarkable job of laying the ground work and showing the characters as their attraction to each other grows. Lily Love has a degree of that too, with Donut examining her attraction to P'Mew. Alternately, as much as I adore Hanjuku Joshi, it jumps pretty quickly into Chitose and Yae having a relationship, although it does make up for that later on with the "because she's a girl" part.

What I want to see in yuri, more than anything, is a believable basis for attraction. I want a girl who finds girls' bodies attractive, who enjoys the company of girls in a non-passive way, is something more than a blank slate until The One comes along and their gender isn't important and they're just a girl by chance. It's a tricky thing to communicate, but to me it's necessary. They don't need to be out waving rainbow flags or wearing flannel shirts or whatever, but seriously, give me some indication that your romantic lead actually wants the girl as a girl, not as some genderless "soul connection", or doing it despite what they are.

Now I haven't really read Citrus (she said, vainly steering more or less back toward the forum topic) past the first handful of chapters due to feeling embarrassed on behalf of the characters for the continuing train-wreck situations they kept getting into, but from following along in the comments it seems like there's at least some of that basis here.

MacySan

This is not true though. What kind of straight friend would act around their friend like these two did in episode 8? Or if one of your friends grabbed your face and went really close to your mouth, while you said this is a confession of love, wouldn't that be crossing the line of feeling like straight bffs?

What kind of friends you ask? Japanese friends apparently, especially in manga, don't forget that when we question this kind of relationship we do that through our western perspective, because for us Kumiko and Rei just can't be anything else besides two friends in love with each other, but in japan? A lot of people still believe two girls can act super gay like that without any kind of romantic attraction at all and don't see Kumiko and Rei as anything but friends, and don't forget that the anime has a lot more bait than it originally should, because except for the scenes where they took the dude out and put the other girl in his place, all the rest is the same in the light novel and it's everything treated as nothing more than just normal friendship between girls, because a lot still believe two girls can't really fall in love with each other and they're at best just playing around if their relationship is more than friendship but don't really go full gay, this is basically just another example of values dissonance between japan and the west.

last edited at Oct 3, 2016 4:51PM

What I want to see in yuri, more than anything, is a believable basis for attraction.

I agree with this. I'm not saying they should make the gender unimportant either though. I just think it's better to create believable chemistry between the characters. And give some reasoning why the characters are attracted to each other, what the one person offers to the other on an emotional level, and how they grow together with their different personalities.
If the focus is based on the sexuality, this sometimes tends to get neglected. So we have stories with nothing more to offer besides the eye-candy, which to me personally gets boring after a while.
I know people here don't refer to stories that lack characterization. But on the other side, if the pairing has good enough development with no sexual development, then that's good enough reason to ship them as well. It doesn't make them simply friends if they don't don't anything sexual.

I believe Citrus has some basis to their relationship. We can see how Yuzu is attracted to Mei because of more reasons besides "just cause I found them both hot to draw, so I made them yuri- The author"
I wouldn't say the side characters in Citrus are bad, I just think the problem is they get disregarded quickly after they served their purpose. And I feel like this is due to the fact that maybe Saburuta doesn't know how to move the plot and story in general.

What kind of friends you ask? Japanese friends apparently, especially in manga, don't forget that when we question this kind of relationship we do that through our western perspective, because for us Kumiko and Rei just can't be anything else besides two friends in love with each other, but in japan? A lot of people still believe two girls can act super gay like that without any kind of romantic attraction at all and don't see Kumiko and Rei as anything but friends

I believe these people are in denial though lol. Heck, even if two girls are having sex, some people will still say they are straight and just experimenting, or do it for attention etc. But if guys do the same thing they are definetely gay. To be completely honest, i believe that a lot of these "straight" cases are just happy because they can do whatever they want and people will still call them straight.

last edited at Oct 3, 2016 4:57PM

MacySan

I believe these people are in denial though lol. Heck, even if two girls are having sex, some people will still say they are straight and just experimenting, or do it for attention etc. But if guys do the same thing they are definetely gay. To be completely honest, i believe that a lot of these "straight" cases are just happy because they can do whatever they want and people will still call them straight.

I don't think you can really call denial the fact that some people see Kumiko and Rei as nothing more than friends, don't forget that the light novel is over and it ends in het and their relationship is never presented as anything but friendship, so there's not really any room to argue about Kumiko and Rei sexuality, they're straight and the author is a piece of shitty who either on purpose filled his story with bait, or he's an idiot who truly believe two girls can be like that and not be gay at all, I won't deny the possibility of KyoAni making the anime go yuri route, but I highly doubt it.

As for the girls being straight and experimenting while guys are really gay, it's probably in part because of that class s bullshit, you can clearly see the double standard just by comparing yaoi and yuri, yaoi is basically always seen as homosexual relationship between man, but yuri? People still argue if it's homosexual relationship between girls, class s, just close friends, subtext, or any other bullshit, didn't someone from Yuri Hime even said that the magazine was never really a yuri magazine or something like that? Really, it's because of this kind of bullshit that even though I really love mangas, animes, games, japanese culture in general, I also really hate them at the same time, seriously, fuck you japan. (>_>)

last edited at Oct 3, 2016 5:31PM

I agree with MacySan and Nezchan. I like having more character in, well, my characters in yuri. Having them interact and influence each other more than just having hot lesbian sex or kissing. Having character(s) being more aware of their sexuality and actually acting on it is a really fresh thing I rarely see in yuri. Here is a video relevant to topic which I'd probably just paraphrase line by line cos I agree with everything (I'll totally understand if you don't watch it though).

last edited at Oct 3, 2016 5:22PM

^^
I agree with nevri about having more characters being aware about their sexuality. But the reality is that the medium is a reflection of Japanese society.

Japan doesn't acknowledge lesbians. They think that having girls liking each other is just a phase you go through in high school. For the medium to have those characters Japanese society has to change first. It's getting there little by little what with the marriage of those two women in Japan but it still has a long way to go.

Japanese yuri manga is written for a Japanese audience. That's all there is to it.

You're not the target.

Get over it.

When the Japanese readers will ask for, or will rate higher, stories about lesbians aware of their sexuality, you will see more of it. They may have a long way to go about acceptance of open homosexuality, but they are eventually, hopefully, moving in that direction.

Don't go on giving them lessons. That's arrogance.

last edited at Oct 4, 2016 1:18PM

I believe these people are in denial though lol. Heck, even if two girls are having sex, some people will still say they are straight and just experimenting, or do it for attention etc. But if guys do the same thing they are definetely gay. To be completely honest, i believe that a lot of these "straight" cases are just happy because they can do whatever they want and people will still call them straight.

And that's when we get girls being very obviously and officially a couple in every sense of the word, down to expressly saying they love each other that way, and still being called "friends". That's one of the things that made me cringe in Cross Ange (then again, what isn't cringe-worthy in Cross Ange? >.>)

Heck, that's even the case for the two girls in my avatar. Although these two are kinda psychopathic but that's another matter.

last edited at Oct 4, 2016 3:56PM

I believe these people are in denial though lol. Heck, even if two girls are having sex, some people will still say they are straight and just experimenting, or do it for attention etc. But if guys do the same thing they are definetely gay. To be completely honest, i believe that a lot of these "straight" cases are just happy because they can do whatever they want and people will still call them straight.

And that's when we get girls being very obviously a couple in every sense of the word, and still being called "friends". That's one of the things that made me cringe in Cross Ange (then again, what isn't cringe-worthy in Cross Ange? >.>)

Heck, that's even the case for the two girls in my avatar. Although these two are kinda psychopathic but that's another matter.

cross ange made me cringe and its just the worst tbh and it kinda ruined nana mizuki for me.

last edited at Oct 4, 2016 1:56PM

Japanese yuri manga is written for a Japanese audience. That's all there is to it.

You're not the target.

Get over it.

When the Japanese readers will ask for, or will rate higher, stories about lesbians aware of their sexuality, you will see more of it. They may have a long way to go about acceptance of open homosexuality, but they are eventually, hopefully, moving in that direction.

Don't go on giving them lessons. That's arrogance.

Yup, Thats true. I doubt that any anime manufacturers acknowledge american's at all. Like I said before we should wait and give them time, We can't possibly do anything else.

last edited at Oct 4, 2016 3:05PM

Or of course we could make our own yuri content, or promote artists outside of japan. But I guess complaining about the lack of yuri is easier. Go figure.

last edited at Oct 4, 2016 3:07PM

Heck, that's even the case for the two girls in my avatar. Although these two are kinda psychopathic but that's another matter.

cross ange made me cringe and its just the worst tbh and it kinda ruined nana mizuki for me.

That's the worst type of yuribait, really. I'm still hopeful for Hibike though.
Also another thing I really hate is when a good character gets paired with a bland one (maybe main character), just to become an ego booster for (some of) the viewers.

Heck, that's even the case for the two girls in my avatar. Although these two are kinda psychopathic but that's another matter.

cross ange made me cringe and its just the worst tbh and it kinda ruined nana mizuki for me.

That's the worst type of yuribait, really. I'm still hopeful for Hibike though.
Also another thing I really hate is when a good character gets paired with a bland one (maybe main character), just to become an ego booster for (some of) the viewers.

i screamed on the inside when tusk just came out of nowhere he was so unnecessary and he should of died when he allahu akbard himself.

Citrus chapter 23
It was very interesting, legit development, tackling legit issues

This comment actually got me on the series again.
and I'd just finished chapter 23.
The rough translations actually hurts the plot a little.. I had to read the chinese translations for a better idea of what was going on in one or two scenes. that being said, thank you to the translators :) I appreciate it. And I could help out if it's chinese raws you're translating from.

And since everyone's dropping an opinion:
I gave up on the series around chapter 17, the twins thing, I found it really draining to be following the emotional rollercoaster. So I gave the series a rest for a year. But honestly the art is too good to leave alone.
And I reread it.. all the way up to the current chapter,

IMO this series works a lot better if you're not chasing it's every release. When you read a chapter every two months their struggle seems pretty eternal. When read as a whole, the pace seems a lot more digestable and the drama becomes believable.
I understand the ups and downs can feel repetitive though I'm really enjoying how every problem has the both of them facing it differently. In the sense that their relationship progresses and hence changes the way they face the challenges.

The twins arc was poorly written, aside from that, I'd recommend a re-read if you'd want to revive your hope in the series (It helps to leave it alone till you can refresh your memory and more chapters release. It's necessary actually)

Thank god I waited for girlfriends to complete before I'd started. I would've died waiting.. and the pace wouldn't have felt as natural and innocently romantic to me.

This is the suggestion from someone who'd rather wait out a series and binge read/watch.. so, to each their own.

But I really enjoyed it a lot better the second time around. It was too much of a waste to give up on this series really.
and I'd support mainstream if it gets me more yuri material.

So that being said.. One of the biggest factors that caused for all the flak is the fact that it was so hyped..? I'd like to support the author without that in mind.. and also leave room for mistakes,as I would for any other storyteller who has consistent deadlines and a big fanbase to consider.

But if you cant stand it, leave it alone, it's not worth the upset.. I've read so many negative comments.. some seem like legit considerations and POVs.. but lots of it felt like jumping the bandwagon to me.
I do agree with some of the flaws though.. You got to close an eye to enjoy it better for this one.
This comment is for anyone looking for that comment to give you a reason to start the series without the flaw analysis in mind.

JUST READ IT IF YOU FEEL LIKE IT. AND HAVE FUN WHILE YOU"RE AT IT. or don't if you've got 'that bad feeling'.
I apologise for the length of my post.

What the hell happened to this discussion...

Here some fun:

FUCKING TRAIN SOUNDS AGAIN Lmao I love that translator anon. Also forgive my shit censorship.

I'm also not counting valkyrie drive mermaid. i didn't watch it because it looked like a male-gaze fanservice nightmare

I honestly find pretty contradictory the way you claim to want more yuri that goes beyond the regular norms of the genre when you're so quick to dismiss something that did exactly that simply because it didn't fit your preconceptions about what an innovative yuri had to be.

VDM is not perfect by any means but is pretty earnest on what it is and what it wants to do and does't shy away from the yuri elements, making it a pretty memorable experience whether your liked it or not.

Late reply, and yes it is contradictory of me I will admit that, but it's also just my personal opinion. Nudity can be done tastefully in anime, I enjoyed Yuri Kuma Arashi and there were quite a few times where the characters were naked. it wasn't perfect, but also didn't make me roll my eyes because boobs were jiggling unrealistically just to keep me watching. I didn't watch VDM myself, but did have friends who fought their way through the first episode and said I wouldn't enjoy it, so I took their word for it (and considering one of the new "hooks" in the trailer for the latest valkyrie drive game is that it is "lewder" tells me that is their target and not making an actual interesting story). I think an innovative series should be a interesting concept/story that doesn't need pointless fanservice to inflate its views. Series don't become the greatest or top 10 best for having the most panty shots... unless it's a list specifically pertaining to that. which might exist actually. huh.

i lost my train of thought there wondering if such a list actually exists. what was i saying?

I still enjoy citrus, can't wait for the next volume to be released sometime next year.

Late reply, and yes it is contradictory of me I will admit that, but it's also just my personal opinion. Nudity can be done tastefully in anime, I enjoyed Yuri Kuma Arashi and there were quite a few times where the characters were naked. it wasn't perfect, but also didn't make me roll my eyes because boobs were jiggling unrealistically just to keep me watching. I didn't watch VDM myself, but did have friends who fought their way through the first episode and said I wouldn't enjoy it, so I took their word for it (and considering one of the new "hooks" in the trailer for the latest valkyrie drive game is that it is "lewder" tells me that is their target and not making an actual interesting story). I think an innovative series should be a interesting concept/story that doesn't need pointless fanservice to inflate its views. Series don't become the greatest or top 10 best for having the most panty shots... unless it's a list specifically pertaining to that. which might exist actually. huh.

But see that is the thing, you can't really make an informed decision if you only watch the first episode of anything. Especially on shows like Valkyrie Drive where hidden depths and plot twists are common. And interestingly, Valkyrie Drive's japanese fanbase is mostly made by women and they have little interest in the fanservice and would rather focus on the characters and their relationships.

The videogame is also very different to the idea you've formed based on a pretty simplistic trailer, SK is lewder by a noticeable margin and once again, its plot take some pretty interesting turns past the middle point, something that people won't know if they drop it after the first hour.

Citrus and GF are totally overrated, but I stil got attached and enjoy them. Being mainstream shouldn't mean people can't like them :X
And omg lmao I can't stand Lily Love. Aside from the cute moments here and there, it's an absolute bore.

it doesn't force-feed you drama

Please.
Nothing substantial happens besides drama (i dont remember anything else, it was probs slice of life ish or something)
The ex-girlfriend jumping in and trying to stay over?
The ex girlfriend's psycho kidnapping ex boyfriend?
Mew getting accepted to study abroad?
Ice confessing to Donut and Donut kissing Ice?
(The homophobic father is technically drama too, but that's the most legit thing. The presentation of it could be better, but it's a very real issue and tackling it is a solid plot point)

Please.
You could have suggested something so much better.
A lot of series have flaws ofc, and well, you like what you like, I won't hold it against you, but I find it rather cringe that the series you praised does the same thing you hate on Citrus for.
Citrus and GF at least have a smoother flow/pacing, to their drama.

At least with "Lily love" The drama move's along very smoothly, Where with Citrus It's like "LOOK ! THIS GIRL WHO WE'VE NEVER INTRODUCED BEFORE IN THIS SERIES WANTS TO BREAK UP MEI & YUZU ! FEAR FOR THEIR RELATIONSHIP ! LOOK, MEI'S ANGRY AT HER DAD FOR LEAVING HER AT A YOUNG AGE ! FEAR FOR MEI & YUZU'S RELATIONSHIP ! LOOK, YUZU & HER FRIEND BOTH HAVE MEI AS THEIR LOVE INTEREST ! FEAR FOR YUZU & MEI'S RELATIONSHIP ! LOOK, YUZU IS GOING TO RUN AGAINST MEI AS PRESIDENT ! FEAR FOR THEIR RELATIONSHIP !" It gets old after a while.

Whaaaaaaa? I can completely understand feeling that Citrus's drama gets old after a while, because a lot of it is just repeated and a little underdeveloped love triangles but it's are more natural than the schtick Lily Love pulls out. The whole "ex-boyfriend is a crazy guy trying to kidnap people! Oh no, wait, he's not that bad, let's give him a hug" was just fking weird, came out of nowhere, and, frankly, kinda creepy. Sure, the drama moves along, but that's because they pull the craziest and stupidest plot lines out of nowhere, and that does not make for good drama at all.

So Yuri Project has dropped the series, is there anyone to continue? Everything I've found so far is of rather sad quality...

Ngl tho there were a lot of "rivals" (Momokino, Matsuri, Sara), for both Yuzu and Mei but I didn't mind, just cus it's a cliche doesn't make it bad :O I quite enjoyed Matsuri's arc
Besides, in Lily Love, you have Ploy and Ice, that's still 2, and if you, SF, like it, that's fine too. Idc about LL, you dont care about Citrus, that's fine, but it's just plain being in denial if you shit on Citrus for x things, and praise LL, but like, they're the same cliches? What I've come to understand is that we both respectably prefer one series' execution of those plot points better than the other, which is ofc, fine

Lyendith, even if yuri is not as popular of a genre, it can still have stuff that are like, popular within its own fandom ofc. "Mainstream yuri" sounds like an oxymore but like, even within something niche, within the fandom, there can be more overrated things

I think the reason why people felt the rivals were getting "repetitive" was cos the last one (Sara? Is that her name?) was barely developed as a character, she was just around to pine for Mei and wasn't fleshed out at all. Matsuri's deviousness and Momokino's (kind of obsessive) knowledge of Mei's history + her previous acquaintance with Mei made them seem a lot more distinctive as characters (and seem like actual challenges), so it didn't feel repetitive.

I guess the baseline is that author needs to stop rushing through storylines and develop whatever is on hand more.

So Yuri Project has dropped the series, is there anyone to continue? Everything I've found so far is of rather sad quality...

I've been reading from Manga Fox while I wait for my local bookstore to stock up on hardcopies. It's adequate, I guess?

last edited at Oct 29, 2016 12:53PM by Nezchan