Well whichever you prefer, I think nobody with a hint of sanity left could deny that this scene was beyond amazing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGXqx3O9kCQ
Minako Kotobuki can make me feel things with just a whisper that people acting their heart out can't in an entire speech.

That’s a great scene, no matter what the media.

In a spirit of self-sacrifice for the interests of intellectual inquiry, I just looked at that scene on the DVD in both the sub and the dub version. Maybe it’s partly because I can’t read nuances of tone of voice in spoken Japanese, but to me the dub version is considerably different in tone and elements of meaning.

First of all, in the English dub Touko starts the sequence by saying, “Hey Yuu, kiss me?” Where the sub and every translation renders it, “I want to kiss you,” making it a request for a kiss from Yuu rather than an announcement about herself. That makes the later equipment-shed scene a repeat of this earlier scene rather than a new development in Touko’s desire.

And here may be where I understand tone in English but not in Japanese, but Touko in English comes off as wheedling rather than making the methodical request for permission/consent I read in the manga and the sub (i.e., not “Aw, c’mon—I want a kiss!” but, “Here’s what’s going to happen—is that OK?”).

And in the “resistance” part of the lead-up to the kiss, in English Yuu sounds to me like she’s distressed and anxious, whereas in the subs and the manga she’s clearly scolding Touko, which is in line with how Touko responds.

Finally, and I know this must have been a point made before (I generally just skimmed the anime discussions here, because I hadn’t seen it), because of the difference in English and Japanese pronoun usage, the “Yuu/you” equivocations in the dub just sound incredibly corny to me. Nobody in English ever says directly to Bob, “I really admire Bob’s work ethic, and I want to support Bob on this project.”

(In fact, I may start doing this at work, just to freak people out—call everyone by their names or work titles, etc. rather than using pronouns.)

last edited at Jan 10, 2020 2:01PM

Like I said, the script is weak. The direction is just adjusted to the new script. The actresses portrayed it the way the script seemed to go, which means the nuances change considerably.

The Japanese version has constant direction during recordings and Nakatani Nio herself was present during many recordings to give direction. This is not a luxury the English dub had.

last edited at Jan 10, 2020 2:04PM

^ I haven't watched the dub, but maybe a better idea could've been reading the English translations of the chapters. And... maybe, if they were super invested discussions about them, too...? Like here, for example. But alas, while a large community, we're still more obscure than we'd like to be.

^ I haven't watched the dub, but maybe a better idea could've been reading the English translations of the chapters. And... maybe, if they were super invested discussions about them, too...? Like here, for example. But alas, while a large community, we're still more obscure than we'd like to be.

That's not how dubbing works. There is a script writer who takes the translation and adjusts it to be more palatable for the American audience. Then they work with the VAs to adjust the dialogue to the lip movements. Usually they don't do much research and just look at the episodes, especially because this one was almost simulcast (I think 1-2 week delays?). They didn't even wait for the complete anime to be out, unlike the Japanese production obviously, which had the entire planned script during recordings.

Direction is more sparse and the director obviously doesn't know what the original really tried to convey and just gives their own interpretation. The mix of having a tight deadline and having all these barriers makes it nearly a miracle for a simulcast dub to be any good at all.

last edited at Jan 10, 2020 2:47PM

That's not how dubbing works. There is a script writer who takes the translation and adjusts it to be more palatable for the American audience. Then they work with the VAs to adjust the dialogue to the lip movements. Usually they don't do much research and just look at the episodes, especially because this one was almost simulcast (I think 1-2 week delays?). They didn't even wait for the complete anime to be out, unlike the Japanese production obviously, which had the entire planned script during recordings.

Direction is more sparse and the director obviously doesn't know what the original really tried to convey and just gives their own interpretation. The mix of having a tight deadline and having all these barriers makes it nearly a miracle for a simulcast dub to be any good at all.

While I've not done lipsync dubbing scripts, only VO/overdubs, that is largely correct from my experience.
From what I've learned it's rather common not to have access to the entire show/original script in its final form when the translated scripts for the first episodes are to be written, unless the original's script is likewise complete - then there's little reason not to pass it along. Scripting means adjusting the length of the takes to fit in the given original audio's timeframe, as well as fitting lip flaps where applicable (should be a secondary concern in Anime, is something to be considered more closely when doing large scale live action movie projects) and most importantly converting a rough, often rather literal translation into a text that sounds more natural in the target language (which many, many dubs, in all languages, have failed at in the past and which many will continue to do for some time in the future) and ironing out errors the translators may have missed or introduced. Research is also part of the procedure, but a 22 minute script should probably be done in two days at most (three to four if working from the foreign original instead of a properly encoded raw translation), which does not allow for much time ahead, so reading a couple thousand posts in various online forums is out, I'm afraid (I'd guess there might have been 1000-1500 posts in this thread before the anime first aired, assuming it grew a lot after that started). Reading the source material could probably be done, if provided to the author and not too comprehensive. Reading YagaKimi as far as it was released would probably have been manageable at the time.

However, while it was simulcast with a 3 week delay (IIRC), that does not mean that work on the dub only commenced after the original aired - turnaround times were quite a bit longer where I worked, though it also depends on how many controlling instances you have that need to re-check each step. Both the streaming service as well as the guys responsible for the script and dub (in this case: Sentai Filmworks and their subsidiaries on both counts) receive the (usually heavily watermarked if pre-release) media considerably before the airdate and are also generally done with at least two weeks of buffer. Could be different with anime.

The key point is that it's a different interpretation. It is not, and shouldn't be, as extreme as putting on a theatrical performance of a play, in which case the results will often vary wildly, even if the spoken text is identical, but there will still be slight differences in tone, nuance and emphasis between different directors and actors.
Script writers, voice actors and (voice) directors ultimately are artists usually interpreting something originally written by someone else (cf. classical music).
Thus I'd rather judge both works on their individual merits first rather than start by comparing the first interpretation (remember, even the original dub is a script being interpreted by actors and a director) with its successor(s) and get hung up on the differences. My question isn't "is it different?" but rather "is it good?" and "do I like this?", which becomes nigh on impossible to distinguish once you've seen or read another interpretation beforehand. Even so it's perfectly legitimate to say "I like this interpretation better".

last edited at Jan 10, 2020 4:06PM

@Zormau
This thread was faaar beyond 1500 posts when the anime came out. I think we were around page 200 something. The anime did not give this thread any major boost.

I don't care for interpretations that try too hard to be their own thing. The manga is the only standard by which the accuracy may be measured and if it is lacking compared to the manga, the ADAPTATION is bad. I don't care for the 1 in a million exception where the adaptation is better than the source material because it deviated. Not worth the risk unless the source material was trash to begin with (Ghost Stories anyone?)

As I already said, the Japanese version had Nakatani Nio (the author of this manga) there giving her input during recordings. So the "interpretation" is as close to what Nakatani envisioned as physically possible. The lines are taken straight from the manga, no translation necessary, so the Japanese version will always be more accurate by default. The worst they do is cut some lines. Therefore the nuance can only be affected by how the seiyuus deliver it, not by a shoddy script.

We know that the English script writer and director didn't read the manga, because of their attrocious failure with the first and last name business that they had to bend backwards for to somehow work through when the episode came up where it actively ruined the plot point. Such a short-sighted mistake is impossible if even one of them had read a single volume ahead in the manga. Such sloppiness is all over the YagaKimi dub, so the only argument you typically use is "I didnt mind it though" because you don't care about the specifics of the story and ignore all artistic integrity.

last edited at Jan 10, 2020 4:22PM

Now I wish I could use the "I was just joking" argument without telling a lie while doing so, but in truth, all of that post was made half-jokingly, yet based in the confines of my knowledge and understanding of the topic at hand and to the cruel truth that we're more obscure than we'd like to be.
So yeah, I may be someone that everyone can rely upon to know history, but I'm also someone that no one, not even myself, can rely upon for good ideas for making a dub.

EDIT:
I can already imagine someone replying something along the lines of Glad you're aware of that. or Glad you understand that now. or Glad we've got that squared away..

last edited at Jan 10, 2020 4:41PM

@Zormau
This thread was faaar beyond 1500 posts when the anime came out. I think we were around page 200 something. The anime did not give this thread any major boost.

Interesting. Had not expected that. Reinforces my point, though, that it was beyond the scope of a script writer's job to read sheer endless forum discussions.

As I already said, the Japanese version had Nakatani Nio (the author of this manga) there giving her input during recordings. So the "interpretation" is as close to what Nakatani envisioned as physically possible. The lines are taken straight from the manga, no translation necessary, so the Japanese version will always be more accurate by default. The worst they do is cut some lines. Therefore the nuance can only be affected by how the seiyuus deliver it, not by a shoddy script.

That may be true for the original anime adaptation. Unfortunately that one's not accessible for anyone who can't understand spoken Japanese. Add subtitles and you have a translation. Notice also that while the spoken lines may be identical to what's been said in the manga, the subtitles already deviate from the official Seven Seas/Kadokawa release, the Mangadex translation as well as the 4s translation, which in turn deviate from one another.

We know that the English script writer and director didn't read the manga, because of their attrocious failure with the first and last name business that they had to bend backwards for to somehow work through when the episode came up where it actively ruined the plot point. Such a short-sighted mistake is impossible if even one of them had read a single volume ahead in the manga. Such sloppiness is all over the YagaKimi dub, so the only argument you typically use is "I didnt mind it though" because you don't care about the specifics of the story and ignore all artistic integrity.

Let's just not go there again, alright?

@BV
Ask ten people how to make a good dub and you'll have twenty ideas.

last edited at Jan 10, 2020 4:40PM

That may be true for the original anime adaptation. Unfortunately that one's not accessible for anyone who can't understand spoken Japanese. Add subtitles and you have a translation. Notice also that while the spoken lines may be identical to what's been said in the manga, the subtitles already deviate from the official Seven Seas/Kadokawa release, the Mangadex translation as well as the 4s translation, which in turn deviate from one another.

And yet the room for deviation is miniscule compared to what dubs do. My point stands.

Let's just not go there again, alright?

I was explaining why it is easy to pin down that they did not do their research. Because we were talking about them having the time to read the manga, but clearly didn't. Sloppy.

And also showing that your "Don't compare, just wonder if it's good" philosophy is backwards and unreliable.

Having genuflected more than sufficiently in the direction of the very creditable YagaKimi anime, I will say that my basic personal opinion remains, for me, according to my personal taste, subjectively speaking for me and for me alone: fuck anime (with some exceptions), and especially fuck dubs.

Comics/manga rules! (Sorry—roolz!)

IMHO.

Having genuflected more than sufficiently in the direction of the very creditable YagaKimi anime, I will say that my basic personal opinion remains, for me, according to my personal taste, subjectively speaking for me and for me alone: fuck anime (with some exceptions), and especially fuck dubs.

It's always funny when people who barely deal in something make such statements. I think anime/cartoons have the potential to be the ultimate form of media. A good adaptation can easily surpass the manga as long as it stays accurate. It is an obvious upgrade if done with passion and a decent budget.
-motion
-color
-music
-sound effects

Those are just the most basic improvements that can't really be debated. Then you get the more unstable improvements.
-voice acting
-sakuga moments (extremely fluid/experimental and spectacular animation)

Anime does not have the physical restrictions of live action TV shows. It can portray anything that can be drawn/animated just like manga/comics, but has the upgrades I already mentioned. The only downsides are that pacing is fragile and not personal (unlike someone reading at their own speed) and the unstable variables not agreeing with the viewer. Voice acting can always be subjectively good or bad. Sakuga moments deviate from the manga's action scenes to be more impressive, which may not necessarily agree with everyone.
But even the implemented music alone can make a scene 100 times more powerful than the silent manga pages.

And let's ignore adaptations for a moment... there are hundreds of anime originals. By completely shunning the medium, you miss out on all of them. Now that is truly a waste. It's funny how those usually go the opposite direction where the manga adaptations suck.

Basically... people need to stop going for one or the other. Just absorb all media like a gluttonous sponge. Never leave your house and never close your eyes.

Having genuflected more than sufficiently in the direction of the very creditable YagaKimi anime, I will say that my basic personal opinion remains, for me, according to my personal taste, subjectively speaking for me and for me alone: fuck anime (with some exceptions), and especially fuck dubs.

Comics/manga rules! (Sorry—roolz!)

IMHO.

Yeah, well, y'know, that's just, like, uh, your opinion, man. insert big lebwoski meme here

Which is cool.

Having genuflected more than sufficiently in the direction of the very creditable YagaKimi anime, I will say that my basic personal opinion remains, for me, according to my personal taste, subjectively speaking for me and for me alone: fuck anime (with some exceptions), and especially fuck dubs.

It's always funny when people who barely deal in something make such statements. I think anime/cartoons have the potential to be the ultimate form of media. A good adaptation can easily surpass the manga as long as it stays accurate. It is an obvious upgrade if done with passion and a decent budget.
-motion
-color
-music
-sound effects

Those are just the most basic improvements that can't really be debated. Then you get the more unstable improvements.
-voice acting
-sakuga moments (extremely fluid/experimental and spectacular animation)

Anime does not have the physical restrictions of live action TV shows. It can portray anything that can be drawn/animated just like manga/comics, but has the upgrades I already mentioned. The only downsides are that pacing is fragile and not personal (unlike someone reading at their own speed) and the unstable variables not agreeing with the viewer. Voice acting can always be subjectively good or bad. Sakuga moments deviate from the manga's action scenes to be more impressive, which may not necessarily agree with everyone.
But even the implemented music alone can make a scene 100 times more powerful than the silent manga pages.

And let's ignore adaptations for a moment... there are hundreds of anime originals. By completely shunning the medium, you miss out on all of them. Now that is truly a waste. It's funny how those usually go the opposite direction where the manga adaptations suck.

Basically... people need to stop going for one or the other. Just absorb all media like a gluttonous sponge. Never leave your house and never close your eyes.

I see that button still works, BugDevil. Lol

Blastaar how dare you state anime sucks as a fact?!!!!!1111oneone

Blastaar how dare you state anime sucks as a fact?!!!!!1111oneone

Only compared to manga. And that’s just my opinion.

Ahem, sorry . . . just my opinion, man.

Do people not just... enjoy media? I like some anime, I read a lot more manga because it's easier to access for me, but I've enjoyed some anime more than I enjoyed their manga, and vice versa. Like jesus y'all we are very heated in here tonight.

I was actually more interested in explaining my long cherished idea of why anime has the potential to be the ultimate media.
I guess Blastaar made as good a wall to throw words at as any.

last edited at Jan 10, 2020 5:44PM

Do people not just... enjoy media? I like some anime, I read a lot more manga because it's easier to access for me, but I've enjoyed some anime more than I enjoyed their manga, and vice versa. Like jesus y'all we are very heated in here tonight.

Actually, no we’re not. I’m just having a little fun with BugDevil on a topic we’ve been around the dance floor about before.

Of course I just enjoy media. But for personal and professional reasons, I lean hard toward manga/comics. As I’ve tried to make clear, that’s how my head happens to work. The BugD’s works otherwise.

Like jesus y'all we are very heated in here tonight.

Implying there is a moment they aren't heated.

What can I say? Once Touko goes "Eroi" in my ear the heat doesn't fade for a few hours.

last edited at Jan 10, 2020 5:48PM

I was 100% serious and didn't write it as a joke if nobody could tell.

What can I say? Once Touko goes "Eroi" in my ear the heat doesn't fade for a few hours.

That one I will definitely give you . . .

Speaking of different tastes, I'd like to reply to this:

Once Touko goes "Eroi" in my ear the heat doesn't fade for a few hours.

by saying that that line by Touko actually happens to be one of my less (but not least) favourite ones.
I especially don't like how I feel agitated in different ways simultaneously by it for a few dozens of seconds.

last edited at Jan 10, 2020 6:11PM

Speaking of different tastes, I'd like to reply to this:

Once Touko goes "Eroi" in my ear the heat doesn't fade for a few hours.

by saying that that line by Touko actually happens to be one of my less (but not least) favourite ones.
I especially don't like how I feel agitated in different ways simultaneously by it for a few dozens of seconds.

This may set the “Too Much Information From BV” record.

@BV
There is no accounting for taste.

Except when it concerns that line. YOU ARE WRONG. How dare you? I've built a religion around Touko whispering to Yuu in a way too seductive manner.

last edited at Jan 10, 2020 6:13PM