Finished watching Birdie Wing season 1. IDK if anyone else is planning to watch it but haven't at this point but have some spoiler tags anyways, I would certainly recommend going into it blind if you have the chance.
I got baited in an entirely different way. Where did my illegal underground golfing go??? That was peak Anime, and I was here for it. Now I feel like I got tricked into watching a normal school sports anime. It's still seriously great, don't get me wrong, it's not like I dislike sports anime or anything, but that kinda moved it from "best new anime I've watched in years" to...well, it's still pretty high up there on account of lack of competiton, but man. It's like the writer(s) were thinking "what kind of unique hook can I use to get people interested in this story" but the hook was way cooler than the story they were hooking us into. The whole thing with Eve graduating to normal society was very nice and all, but I think I would have preferred it to be the "happily ever after" ending.

We're getting a second season in January, and I don't think the current arc has the potential to last for the whole thing. Plenty of time for things to get wild

last edited at Sep 28, 2022 6:07PM

The villains of the mafia arc have yet to receive their commeupance, so I'm positive we'll see them again.

The reason I bring this up is that "yuri" is a romance subgenre. When people set out to write a yuri manga (or novel or whatever), they largely have romance genre tropes to fall back on. And as @Licentious Lantern says, romance tropes exist for a reason; the "will they/won't they" dynamic provides an inherent tension and a clear goal that automatically makes audiences invest in it. (Manga like Nisekoi and Rent-A-Girlfriend can persist literally only on that for hundreds of chapters...)

Also, this doesn't affect the larger point, but Clannad absolutely has a "happily ever after" ending.

It can go either way for Key adaptations. The formula for Key visual novels (and Jun Maeda anime) was called nakige (crying game) and I'll let Wikipedia explain it:

Games from publisher Key often follow a similar formula: a comedic first half, with a heart-warming romantic middle, followed by a tragic separation, and finally (though not always) an emotional reunion.

The thing is -- there are formulas for maintaining (or introducing) tension even after the main couple gets together. I brought up Kase-san earlier in the thread because it follows a proven shoujo formula for keeping things going; its not like "will they/won't they" is the only way to keep people interested.

The villains of the mafia arc have yet to receive their commeupance, so I'm positive we'll see them again.

Hmm, that's the thing, though. The entire first arc was about the orphan girls making it out of the slum life, which I think was the perfect comeuppance, and about Eve's character development. It was... very dramatically conclusive, too, what with Rose and all. As much as the unapologetically Anime golf was the reason I was so enthralled originally, I think it'd actually be narratively unsatisfying for Eve to return to that life now.

and I don't think the current arc has the potential to last for the whole thing.

This exact tournament arc, probably not. But I feel like the whole thing that was set up is that Eve made it to the good life, where she can compete with her gay golf girlfriend rival and push each other further and further. Which, gay aside, is basically the exact premise of all school sports anime. I'd be a little surprised if they buck this and go back to the wild side, given how much they emphasised Eve's transition from "someone who hits a ball with a stick for money" to someone who genuinely enjoys golfing.

The villains of the mafia arc have yet to receive their commeupance, so I'm positive we'll see them again.

Hmm, that's the thing, though. The entire first arc was about the orphan girls making it out of the slum life, which I think was the perfect comeuppance, and about Eve's character development. It was... very dramatically conclusive, too, what with Rose and all. As much as the unapologetically Anime golf was the reason I was so enthralled originally, I think it'd actually be narratively unsatisfying for Eve to return to that life now.

I doubt Eve will return to that life, more like that life will return to her lol. The orphan girls may have made it out but Catherine is still perfectly capable of using them to threaten Eve to golf for her again or something. Not to mention the ending of season 1 implies that Aoi's family has been involved in some fucked-up shit; the Amawashis being linked to the golf mafia is a natural way to bring both "worlds" together.

Not to mention the ending of season 1 implies that Aoi's family has been involved in some fucked-up shit; the Amawashis being linked to the golf mafia is a natural way to bring both "worlds" together.

Hmm, I didn't catch that but now that you mention it they certainly could be setting up for that. I would be fascinated if this is the direction it went.

There's a trailer available for Birdie Wing's second cour. The mafia plot makes a return. I personally think there's a lot of room for more insane shit, and I don't think the school tournament arc will take up that much more room.

In fact, that trailer made me wonder if the anime was initially meant to have two consecutive cours, but production issues forced the staff to delay the second half.

In fact, that trailer made me wonder if the anime was initially meant to have two consecutive cours, but production issues forced the staff to delay the second half.

Split cours like this are becoming more and more commonplace, so it was likely planned like this from the start. I guess it helps avoid production issues before they even have a chance to appear.

can't vouch for their quality, but this is true for [...] Magical Girls Spec-Ops Asuka

I remember dropping this while it was airing. Trying to watch it again now, and maybe it's shallow of me, but it really strikes me how much budget matters for an action anime. Something with this concept has no right being this boring. The voice acting is completely flat, the OST appears to have only one song (although it is good), and the fight scenes are completely lacking in both direction and raw animation quality. The sound effects are particularly egregious, with gunfights feeling as though they're playing airsoft.

All of that being said, I have relatively little to criticise about the writing so far*. It's interesting, in that it's basically the inverse of LycoReco. LycoReco had incredibly high production value, even if there was no substance backing the style. I suppose watching them almost side by side it's easy to see why anything animated by A-1 is immensely popular regardless of the quality of the story. I think I'll have to continue Asuka from the manga, because the anime isn't doing it for me.

*Mostly, it's written by a man and you can tell. The aggressive fanservice is incredibly grating and there's a god damn goblin r*** scene. But story-wise, it's fine. The gratuitous violence is not my cup of tea but I can accept it in a story that tries to depict what would happen when mahou shoujos meet the reality of our shitty planet. The fact that one of the central aspects of the plot is Asuka coping with her PTSD lends credence to the violence that makes it more meaningful than merely edgy. Although it is definitely also edgy.

last edited at Sep 30, 2022 10:09AM

Would be curious to hear your thoughts on Spec-Ops Asuka after reading the manga. I kind of got turned off after reading some spoilers but maybe it executes its concepts well.

I don't really remember Tokushusen Asuka being particularly gay at all, though I guess its possible the manga went that direction. If you want something both incredibly edgy and nonchalant about two women dating there was Mnemosyne from 2008, though their circumstances as far as opposite gender relationships were... complicated.

As far as Birdie Wing I'm guessing that after tournament arc we'll probably have an arc dealing with Eve's past.

As far as Birdie Wing I'm guessing that after tournament arc we'll probably have an arc dealing with Eve's past.

I'd certainly expect us to eventually find out who Eve actually is, seeing how she doesn't even remember this herself.

My Master Has No Tail is incredibly charming. I'd read the few translated chapters available about a year ago and was pretty hyped for the show, and for once, the animated product does decent justice to the source material. The show hums with hues and tones in this deceptively simple, earthy way that pleasingly evokes themes of faded paper and wooden blocks, conjuring that serene vitality one feels in the alcoves of old libraries, occasionally fulminated into a glimmering coruscation, like the big ol' belly laughter a good joke evokes, or the paaens of sentiment for ages never experienced a really good painting might make you feel. It can be humble, scruffy and flat at times, the budget transformations of a tanuki in a hurry on an empty belly, but ain't that the best fit ever for this odd little story? I choose to believe in beauty. Also, the voice acting is sublime, and dovetails very well with the low-key animation to stimulate the imagination and paint layers under surfaces, much like rakugo itself can turn a simple spoken performance into a portal to worlds myriad and diverse- another fortunate little coincidence, good old spit-and-spirit magic for the enterprising youkai.

Honestly, I'd have loved this show for the Touhou vibes alone, that masterfully playful marshalling of fairytale and folklore in worlds that, in moving past them, need them more than ever, but No Tail also stands perfectly well on its own four paws. Mameda and Bunko's dynamic is as distinctively charming as always, that lovely interplay between our bushtailed little gremlin's fight-or-fright optimism and this professionally ageless old yarn-weaver's mocking melancholies, intertwining in a stirring, stubbornly hopeful tail (such mirth!) about the timeless vitality of tricks and whimsy, teaching wide audiences to laugh at themselves and weep for others and go back home all warm and fuzzy, hearts insured against time another night. I'm, uh, really sure everyone who watches this will actually appreciate their dynamic for what it is instead of embarking upon Pointless Debate #32737474 about whether it's bait, chum, fodder, foliage, breadcrumb, authentic lily extract, etc. Regardless of whether or not this show grows too popular (it doesn't seem the type to take off like the one about the cop-café did, despite being cooler in every way, but I do remember a promo for it getting boatloads of views on YT, so fingers crossed; either the hipster or the hopeful in me shall eventually be satisfied), I'm just glad that quirky, gentle, art-adoring stories like it continue to be told. Vanishes in a puff of leaves and smoke.

My Master Has No Tail is incredibly charming. (...)

I'm in for this ride regardless of what it ends up being. Bunko is like a Sudou Yumi character.

last edited at Sep 30, 2022 2:17PM

Is this what they call "projection"? You're the one who decided to invoke comparisons to het in the first place, if you're not knowledgeable enough to back up your own assertions maybe stop making them?

No, I would call this a poor reading of what I said on your part.
I just told you that I know my way around het, it is just not something I care about nearly as much. You made the automatic assumption that I am "one of those people who don't read or watch het" to discredit my viewpoint. Thus I was pointing out that just because it is obvious that people on Dynasty are not interested in het in the majority, it doesn't mean that I am not knowledgable about it.
Did me just telling you that I can give you a list of 100 forever season 1 het anime that dont end conclusively fly over your head? Anyway, I know your style and this will not register for you. Moving on.

AFAIK a lot of early yuri was tragic. And don't get me wrong, I love dramatic shoujo here and there (Ai Yazawa is one of my favorite mangaka ever) but I'm talking more about bubblegum romance here. Otherwise... I'll give you that the "princely girl" came from shoujo but more often than not she's not even gay. Ouran High School Host Club gave a "prince" character a reverse harem. I wouldn't consider them a gender swap either though I'm sure they've been used that way.

Yes indeed, the tragic yuri tropes come from the Class S roots. It is unfortunate, but that was the style at the time. The conceit of Class S was after all that relationships between girls are doomed to be just a phase, fated for an eventual parting to move on to a man. So the only possible way to keep the romance intact without that would be tragedy. Lovers suicides are especially... "popular" during that era.

You cited a het anime as an example of the princely girl not being gay. Impressive. But I am talking about the application of that trope in yuri. And it is fairly rare in het works to begin with (note: not non-existant of course, I could obviously cite Gekkan Shoujo Nozaki-kun where a princely type is in love with a boy), because it serves almost no purpose, unlike in the early Shoujo-inspired yuri where the role reversal was needed to draw female readers in with the familiar. The line between bishounen and "ikemen" girl is blurry to a lot of Shoujo fans.

I don't believe AdaShima has face sitting but I was definitely thinking about it when discussing dragged out LN. And going through an exhaustive list of yuri tropes was never my intention either; that's a conversation for a different thread. As far as Class S though I'd assume people still consider Maria-sama ga Miteru yuri, which was pretty much pure Class S. It casts a really, really long shadow over modern yuri, though at least the more problematic implications of Class S were lost to time, though I don't want to diminish what it was for its time here either.

Most Light Novels are not porn, so yes, AdaShima has no such escalation haha
And while it is dragged out, that is sort of its defining feature. It is the slowburn of slowburns and even then they have Adachi acknowleding she may be in love with Shimamura at the end of Volume 1, have the confession scene in Volume 6 and start dating in Volume 7 so it is not nearly as bad as it could be.

Maria-sama ga miteru is THE defining turning point from old-school Class S into proper yuri. It is the worst possible example to pick in this context to be quite honest. Rather than being "pure" Class S it is the work that shook up most of the genre's conventions and irrepairably upended this cesspit of the past. Class S even at its peak was never good. It was a very potent mirror of Japanese culture though and at least historically and for the sake of analyses it serves its purpose.

Being firends before being lovers is literally what 90% of Japanese romance is like though.

...but you just admitted het isn't your focus in a previous paragraph so you're basically pulling numbers out of your ass. And you don't like examples either so I'm not sure how to respond here. If your point is that 90% of yuri romances start as friendship that's basically my criticism of the genre and why I'm talking about its roots in Class S and relationships that overemphasize friendship in the first place.

Absolutely not, I refer you back to what I said at the start of this reply. I find it pointless to throw around a bunch of names for a point this self-evident... Do you honestly deny that in most het romance stories many characters start out as friends or as strangers that become friends and THEN lovers (unless it is a harem story in which case there will never be a definitive conclusion)? There are some exceptions where a romantic pursuit from stranger status is the focus or where the story begins with a relationship already established (though this is just as rare as in yuri sadly).

It feels like you're just trying to derail and score some internet points here but the discussion I thought we were having was 'subtext vs bait vs slow burn' and because I know yuri relationships have historically been a 'road to nowhere' the burden is IMO on the slow burn to prove its going to be different. If it can't really do that in one anime season I just don't see it any different than bait, though Class S is probably a better label.

I am starting to think that your claims of projection came from a very self-reflective place because that first implication is just so awfully off. Please try to contain that.

Yuri being historically a road to nowhere is false. Plain and simple. Class S is not really yuri and that is the only piece of history where the inconclusive/bait ending is the norm. So which stories do you believe go nowhere? A slowburn by default is a story that is decidedly headed towards a yuri conclusion, subtext is not. Subtext is just a possibility of yuri, much like there is romantic subtext in het shows that may or may not go anywhere. The reason I have to keep making the comparison to het (or BL) is because you keep acting like this is a feature endemic to the yuri genre.

There are no modern Class S works with any kind of presence thankfully, so please do not get it confused. Bait is bait, subtext is subtext, Class S is a dead genre. At most there are those works which purposely play with Class S tropes to defy them (The FLOWERS visual novel series is a prime example).

I know very little about BL (aside from some BL bait here and there) but I got the impression rivalries were a more common basis for a relationship than friendship. Maybe I was mistaken.

Rivals to lovers is a very popular BL trope, though friendships turning to love are just as common. Surprisingly the "bromance" aspect is what leaks out the most into mainstream haha

---

@protectmomo

I would not agree at all that there is "no shortage of yuri content". You always have to apply a proper standard first. Compared to het and BL works, yuri has an insignificantly small pool to draw from.

Hmm, I'm not sure this is true. I have no idea about manga because I don't generally keep up with het manga, but there's a small enough amount of anime each season that I try to keep tabs on everything airing, and in terms of anime I think that the pool of "yuri" is actually quite close to het, if you're counting subtext and bait, because every season has numerous CGDCT, idol, etc anime and I think the majority of them do yuri bait.

This... sounds really off to me. That would have to be an entirely different standard for yuri between us I suppose.
No, I cannot automatically include CGDCT, Idol and magical girl shows as yuri. That is preposterous to me. Even if there was mild subtext (and that is what most of these shows have at most), it would not even be solid enough to be confirmed, so how can it be a proper yuri show? It more often than not is a [insert genre] show with a yuri subtext/subplot facette. In the opposite way almost every anime would be a het anime then, would it not? Most anime even outside the romance genre have het relationships in them, so you see the issue. This just compounds the problem and brings us back to the beginning, unless you apply a double standard to the genres.

In no way can it ever be justified that het and yuri have an equal output in ANY medium. It is simply not possible. This thread, nay, this community struggles to pick up any crumbs of yuri from each anime season every year, yet you will never have to dig for het works. There are always going to be explicit ones aplenty and lots of side-romance in others. And yes, this issue is far greater in manga, as there are more manga published than anime can possibly produced, naturally. Same for LNs and VNs.

Finally BL has not that many anime under its belt either, but they are about on par with explicit yuri shows anyway. And if you dive into any other medium in Japan, fujoshis have it completely flooded with their influence without a doubt.

last edited at Oct 1, 2022 7:33AM

Did me just telling you that I can give you a list of 100 forever season 1 het anime that dont end conclusively fly over your head?

I'm not sure why you want me to give you points for saying you could give examples.

You cited a het anime as an example of the princely girl not being gay. Impressive. But I am talking about the application of that trope in yuri.

And before you were talking about the origin of the trope in shoujo manga, which is what I was addressing.

Maria-sama ga miteru is THE defining turning point from old-school Class S into proper yuri.

I mean I'll give you that Marimite was important, but that was because Marimite was basically a revival of Class S with the exact same focus on friendships and such.

Do you honestly deny that in most het romance stories many characters start out as friends or as strangers that become friends and THEN lovers (unless it is a harem story in which case there will never be a definitive conclusion)?

I mean a tsundere exists to basically avoid being friends, and like I've already said osananajimi have a pretty terrible success rate. Familiarity doesn't inherently lend itself to romance in life or in manga.

GUNDAAAAAAAAAAAAM

Spoilers for The Witch From Mercury Episode 1

Edit: Having regained the ability to type coherently, I humbly shill to y'all Mobile Suit Gundam: The Witch From Mercury. The approach here seems to have been What if we told a story about giant robots and capitalism and family legacies and also remade Revolutionary Girl Utena and it fucking owns. This is my first MSG, and while I knew that Gundam was to yaoi what Star Trek was to slash, and also that a lot of people were shipping Suletta and Miorine, I mostly just came into the show looking for a story about a badass girl taking on corporations with her beam rifle. What I found was that, but also so much more. I cannot overstate the influence of Utena here- we've got an academy that reflects the state of power as hierarchy across the world, but presents also opportunities for reform and upheaval, a Duelling Council full of dudes who're simultaneously the gayest, straightest and insanest people you'll ever see, loads of familial trauma reflected upon in greenhouses, dramatic battles for a central bride figure, and a scruffy girl of humble origins who finds herself at the centre of it all, blade in one hand, wife in another. Yes, there is a gay engagement in episode one of this show. An openly gay engagement. Not the 90s subtext that even Utena had to deal with, the kind that loads of shows seem to struggle to escape even today. Just a breezy, merry, Oh, yeah, queer relationships are entirely commonplace here and girl, we just got hitched. Regardless of what this show ends up being, this pilot deserves to go down in history. I was fucking sobbing tears of happiness at the end of it all.

At the same time, the show's got tons of personality of its own. There's obviously all the politicking and military-industrial complexity that I hear is common to Gundam, and while Suletta's stuttering, disastrous social presentation easily sets her apart from Utena and promises a unique arc of her own, I also appreciate how Miorine is clearly not willing to be a passive rose bride, but to strive her darnedest to make some kind of impression, defeat those who dishonour her and lead her own life without a second wasted, even if she does at present need to uphold her corporate dynasty's silly marriage contract. As much as I loved the cathartic clarity with which she affirms her and Suletta's engagement, I also hope she gets to ride into battle as well, because girlfriends who fight at each other's sides is still a way better trope than one partner constantly defending the other's honour, even in a queer sense. I want them to fall in love on their own terms, rebel against the system that forces Miorine to be a trophy for lovers of any orientation, create a better new system, and then, after all's said and done, to come together on their own terms after they've forged a valiant bond on the battlefield. They can make history.

So yeah, I went from being mildly intrigued by to indescribably hyped for this show, because it hits so many of my interests and has that really special energy, that interest in being different, challenging and boldly rebellious, that I think queer media so desperately needs- as Suletta so neatly puts it, experience, pride and trust. I don't know where the witch from mercury's going to take us, but I am more committed to this ride than I've been to anything in a long time.

last edited at Oct 2, 2022 6:51AM

Would be curious to hear your thoughts on Spec-Ops Asuka after reading the manga. I kind of got turned off after reading some spoilers but maybe it executes its concepts well.

I finished reading it. What was it that turned you off? I can try to elaborate on what I thought about anything specific, but it would probably take ten paragraphs full of spoilers to put my thoughts on the manga as a whole into writing.

I will say, nothing ruins a story like a bad plot twist. I binged it all as quickly as my free time would allow, and I was super engaged for most of it, but... sigh. It's okay not to have a plot twist. I feel like authors live for that "gotcha" moment and it's usually more detrimental to their work than beneficial. It's like in a single moment they dump ten volumes' worth of their own story in the garbage bin just so they can say "bet you didn't expect that, I'm such a clever writer". No, I didn't expect it, because it makes no sense!! You had a good thing going, you didn't need to get tricksy with it. Not sure if anyone else has read it all but I'd be interested to hear what other people thought of The Big Twist.

Yeah about gundam.... wheeew... Wuoooohh.... Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh XDD

Honestly... I'm speechless, all I can say is 10/10 recommended, the protagonist is too much of a scaredy cat but when it counts, she acts!

ALSO VERY IMPORTANT do NOT forget to watch the episode 0 called Prologue, it's very important to understand the series.

Uh, for people reading this thread that don't want to go through Temp's wall of text, the latest Gundam has the (female) protagonist get engaged to another girl (accidentally). It's pretty solid, even aside from that. I recommend checking it out

Not sure if anyone else has read it all but I'd be interested to hear what other people thought of The Big Twist.

Which one? Like, the very end? That was a bit of a cop-out, but didn't really change my thoughts on the series

Which one? Like, the very end? That was a bit of a cop-out, but didn't really change my thoughts on the series

Spec-Ops Asuka omega giga spoilers below, careful if you haven't read it
The resurrection power as a whole, including both Francine and the ending. I don't understand what making Francine the Big Bad was supposed to add to the story. And it just opened up 500 plot holes, in my view. How does Asuka's power trigger at random without her even knowing something happened? Why does it only happen when it's convenient for the plot? Why did Francine not let anyone know she's back from the dead before going off the deep end? How does she even get back home anonymously, from the other side of the world? How does Francine get new magic cube powers that the others don't recognise? How does one rogue magical girl form a terrorist band capable of routinely attacking all of the nation's strongest militaries head-on at their most fortified points and winning, overcoming five other first generation girls of equal strength in the process?

If the author put any thought into these questions, I can't tell. The twist seems completely incompatible with the story that was told up to this point and it's just like... why? What was even the point of bringing her back from the dead for this? I felt like the story was coherent up until this point but it completely lost me when this happened.

Uh, okay. I didn't really consider Francine being the main villain a twist, since I thought it was pretty obvious from nearly the start. I was also expecting more information on the backstory there, and I imagine this is even worse if her identity was a surprise

I thought Asuka was a decent bit of trashy fun, but it's not something where I'd want to think about any of the plot very much

last edited at Oct 2, 2022 4:11PM

since I thought it was pretty obvious from nearly the start.

how

It's been long enough since I read it that I don't really remember. Probably narrative juxtaposition?