What are you talking about? In Chapter 20 all that Shiho wanted was for Aki to admit that she was a better singer/performer than Yori. And in Chapter 21 she grabs Aki by the collar after hearing her say that she "loves Yori's singing and that that opinion will never change".

Huh? Do we live in a world where it is okay to grab someone else by the collar and yell at them for expressing their opinion? No, that's not okay in any way. Shiho was emotionally and physically abusive to Aki, and never apologizes for it.

It's honestly kind of shocking that a story about same-sex romance will push the theme that someone else is allowed to judge you for falling in love with one person rather than another, and be correct in the end.

Huh? Do we live in a world where it is okay to grab someone else by the collar and yell at them for expressing their opinion? No, that's not okay in any way. Shiho was emotionally and physically abusive to Aki, and never apologizes for it.

It's honestly kind of shocking that a story about same-sex romance will push the theme that someone else is allowed to judge you for falling in love with one person rather than another, and be correct in the end.

But... But... Aki hurt shiho by not reading her mind, she was oh so hurt, It wasn't her fault.
How aki dares to love yori s singing without shiho permission, she clearly deserve it

At this point you shouldn't bother to reply to this type of post, just as mei shiho is incapable of doing anything wrong in some people's eyes, all of her action are either other people's fault or out of her control and she shouldn't be held accountable for anything she does cuz feelings always justify ones actions

last edited at Jul 22, 2023 12:21PM

The good thing is that the author does understand that Aki continuing to follow Shiho and eventually forcing her to confess was not right, and made that very clear in chapter 40 - along with facing their mismatched feeling between chapters 40 and 43.

Yes, the most ridiculously implausible reaction in the entire series. Aki is the one at fault because Shiho refused to tell her anything.

How in the world could Aki have been so blind, so unfeeling, so willing to emotionally torture someone who had been her friend? JFC.

For the multiple people that wrote that this story is not even about blame and responsibility as concepts... we know, that is what we are critizing. We are saying the story SHOULD be about that, or at least incorporate this concept.

Not even the two or three pages where Kyou "appeared" in this chapter made you realize the weight of guilt Shiho has been carrying with her all this time?

Oh, it has been made quite clear that Shiho always felt conflicted about her actions, that much was obvious. However, this never stops her from being a raging bitch. Also, she does not forgive Aki, really. The reason she broke of with Aki was her loving Yori. She only accepted Aki back after she tells her this is no longer the case and she is ready for a new start. And even then, in the moment that Aki tells her that this obstacle is gone, she needs the realization of lost chances in form of the former friend she left for a bullshit reason too to even allow herself to give Aki a chance, the hindrance being that Aki took to long to change for her.

Her guilt does not make Shiho a better person. Feeling guilt for something bad you done is normal, not something to be praised. There is a reason we call people with no remorse psychopaths. And since her guilt also does not lead to any meaningful change, it helps very little with my main topic of contention, which very simplified could be broken down to: "Will SOMEbody in the story PLEASE realize what a bitch Shiho is?" Just some very basic cause and effect, some consequenses for her actions, instead of rewards.

Huh? Do we live in a world where it is okay to grab someone else by the collar and yell at them for expressing their opinion? No, that's not okay in any way. Shiho was emotionally and physically abusive to Aki, and never apologizes for it.

Of course it's not okay. I was just describing what triggered that reaction: Aki (unintentionally and unknowingly) rubbed salt to the wound in the worst way possible.

And Shiho is a controversial enough character as it is for you to make things up: She never "demanded Aki to renounce her own band and friends", and the only "insult" she said was stating that she was a better singer than Yori (this is canonically true), which was you original comment. What did happen was Aki slapping Shiho in the face when she left the band.

i feel like the majority of shiho haters are huge examples of people criticizing things they don’t understand. some of them have some sense and reason behind their hate, but others just seem to act like all shiho has done is hurt people. which isn’t true at all.
shiho has brought people together, if she hadn’t quit the band there’s a big chance himari and yori would’ve never met. people seem to only focus on the things she’s done wrong, and seem to forget the good things she’s done.
she’s a character that has reasons to be criticized, but all characters do. and don’t get me wrong, she has made mistakes.
imo she’s one of the best written characters in this manga. she clearly has abandonment issues, a friend of hers died, she’s been thrown away by many bands before. she’s lost so much, taken so many hits, she’s realistic.
and there’s 100% a reason why she seems so obsessed with being the best. again, she’s lost so much, ofc there’s something she wants to “win” or hold on to. and that’s music.
i don’t think aki and shiho would be a toxic relationship. aki seems to understand shiho much more than the others… besides himari. she’s one of the only people who’s taken the time to form some kind of relationship with shiho, or some kind of understanding of with her, even if it had its problems. (i wish some fans would try this too…)
anyway, there’s my little rant.

Huh? Do we live in a world where it is okay to grab someone else by the collar and yell at them for expressing their opinion? No, that's not okay in any way. Shiho was emotionally and physically abusive to Aki, and never apologizes for it.

Of course it's not okay. I was just describing what triggered that reaction: Aki (unintentionally and unknowingly) rubbed salt to the wound in the worst way possible.

And Shiho is a controversial enough character as it is for you to make things up: She never "demanded Aki to renounce her own band and friends", and the only "insult" she said was stating that she was a better singer than Yori (this is canonically true), which was you original comment. What did happen was Aki slapping Shiho in the face when she left the band.

this is so real though. she did physically slap shiho

What are you talking about? In Chapter 20 all that Shiho wanted was for Aki to admit that she was a better singer/performer than Yori. And in Chapter 21 she grabs Aki by the collar after hearing her say that she "loves Yori's singing and that that opinion will never change".

Huh? Do we live in a world where it is okay to grab someone else by the collar and yell at them for expressing their opinion? No, that's not okay in any way. Shiho was emotionally and physically abusive to Aki, and never apologizes for it.

It's honestly kind of shocking that a story about same-sex romance will push the theme that someone else is allowed to judge you for falling in love with one person rather than another, and be correct in the end.

i’m sorry but are we just forgetting the fact that aki literally slapped shiho as hard as she could for saying she wanted to quit the band…? don’t get me wrong, i love aki, but she’s done shitty things too.
also, coming from somebody who’s actually experienced emotional abuse irl, don’t say this kind of stuff. it’s not okay to call somebody who throughout the entire manga has literally been trying so hard to just stay away from aki and when confronted by aki multiple times after wanting her t9 go away snapping a bit. that’s not emotional abuse. that’s not emotional abuse at all.
and when you bring up the collar grab, that’s not physical abuse… not even close. even slapping or hitting somebody once isn’t physical abuse, abuse in general is repetitive.
it feels quite a bit invalidating to call such petty things like that physical and emotional abuse. hope this helps <3.

last edited at Jul 22, 2023 5:36PM

Okay, but I mean aki does deserve better.

And at the same time. Shiho did blackmail, gaslight, extort and tantrum her way to a gf

Okay, but I mean aki does deserve better.

And at the same time. Shiho did blackmail, gaslight, extort and tantrum her way to a gf

when tf did she blackmail or gaslight

What did happen was Aki slapping Shiho in the face when she left the band.

Oh my gosh, yeah! I was reading back through the chapters last night after writing my essay (which I apologize for, ill try not to let it happen again) and I found that and was super surprised! I totally forgot about that, as it seems most people here had as well.

Huh? Do we live in a world where it is okay to grab someone else by the collar and yell at them for expressing their opinion? No, that's not okay in any way. Shiho was emotionally and physically abusive to Aki, and never apologizes for it.

i’m sorry but are we just forgetting the fact that aki literally slapped shiho as hard as she could for saying she wanted to quit the band…? don’t get me wrong, i love aki, but she’s done shitty things too.
also, coming from somebody who’s actually experienced emotional abuse irl, don’t say this kind of stuff. it’s not okay to call somebody who throughout the entire manga has literally been trying so hard to just stay away from aki and when confronted by aki multiple times after wanting her t9 go away snapping a bit. that’s not emotional abuse. that’s not emotional abuse at all.
and when you bring up the collar grab, that’s not physical abuse… not even close. even slapping or hitting somebody once isn’t physical abuse, abuse in general is repetitive.
it feels quite a bit invalidating to call such petty things like that physical and emotional abuse. hope this helps <3.

Thanks loveis_freely for joining the discussion, I appreciate your takes and I really agree with you here. It's really just insane to me how people will twist things to fit their narrative.

It's honestly kind of shocking that a story about same-sex romance will push the theme that someone else is allowed to judge you for falling in love with one person rather than another, and be correct in the end.

Like this? What? I don't understand how you could draw this conclusion at all that this is what this story was portraying.

I was thinking about this after I received a reply over on Mangadex. Forgot to mention that Aki does regret not stopping Shiho back then. She says this directly in this chapter ("I don't want to repeat the regret I felt from not stopping you back then").

SrNevik, I was thinking about this as well! I agree with you completely, and it supports our interpretation of Aki being too focused on Yori back then, but now she's not so subconsciously fixated on Yori, meaning she's fallen or falling out of love with Yori enough to be able to give consideration to Shiho now and regret not doing so in the past.

Also, it seems that people keep saying they are upset with this chapter because Aki is the one who apologized and Shiho didn't... but I didn't take any of what Aki said as an apology. She does kinda indirectly say she was wrong, so maybe people consider that an apology? To me, she just said they were both misunderstanding, or "didn't know who they really were" so now that they do know, now that the air is cleared, she would like to start over. And I think that's great. I think that's awesome writing.

Haven't been here for a while and now everybody likes Shiho. I don't feel special anymore.

Haven't been here for a while and now everybody likes Shiho. I don't feel special anymore.

nah barely anybody likes shiho it’s actually kinda crazy

“shiho is soooo annoying”
oh so you’re lying? oh so you’re a fucking liar? oh so you’re allergic to joy, magic, and fun? /ref

Huh? Do we live in a world where it is okay to grab someone else by the collar and yell at them for expressing their opinion? No, that's not okay in any way. Shiho was emotionally and physically abusive to Aki, and never apologizes for it.

It's honestly kind of shocking that a story about same-sex romance will push the theme that someone else is allowed to judge you for falling in love with one person rather than another, and be correct in the end.

But... But... Aki hurt shiho by not reading her mind, she was oh so hurt, It wasn't her fault.
How aki dares to love yori s singing without shiho permission, she clearly deserve it

At this point you shouldn't bother to reply to this type of post, just as mei shiho is incapable of doing anything wrong in some people's eyes, all of her action are either other people's fault or out of her control and she shouldn't be held accountable for anything she does cuz feelings always justify ones actions

well… depending on the person mentality and/or emotions can justify certain actions. especially mentality.
also, i haven’t seen a single person say shiho is perfect.

last edited at Jul 23, 2023 12:48AM

Now into more productive discussions, does anybody noticed that a lot of popular woman targeted media seem to incorporate some form of the "I can change him/her with my love" trope and/or the "deep down she /he is a nice person". It sees to be a constant across all types of media western or eastern, like 50 shades of gray, twilight, kaicho wa maid, citrus, sasakoi, a lot of yaoi/yuri fanfics and long list of etc.
It was just recently that shoujo decided to take a more wholesome approach to romance ie sonó bisque doll, shikimori is not just cute, tonikaku kawaii, the dangers in my heart etc

just say they…

So many mindreaders here with the ability to explain away the most basic everyday details like when you quit your job (and being in a band is indeed a job), you don’t have that job anymore.

Dude, they are in high school. Clam down.

Good job—when a copout for shitty writing like “they’re in high school” works, you might as well mash that button every time.

I guess I’ll just have to clam down.

my brother in christ they’re hormonal teenagers, they fuck up all the time. look at me, i’m a teenager, i fuck up all the time. not to mention the fact that adults fuck up all the time, it’s no reason to get so pressed. AND NO SHIT SHIHO HAS DONE STUFF WRONG WE GET IT WE’RE NOT SAYING THAT IT’S OKAY. but you’ve gotta cut some fucking slack on teenagers good lird.

This is hilarious, insofar as reversing responsibility and blaming the wrong person can be hilarious.

The more I think about it, it does seem that Shiho has something like an incel mindset. She had feelings for Aki. Aki was treating her normally, and Shiho felt that she was entitled to more. It seems that in the author's mind, Aki was in the wrong for not giving Shiho what she thought she deserved.

do you even know what an incel is???

loveis_freely, please try to reply to everyone in a single message from now on. Otherwise it gets messy.

last edited at Jul 23, 2023 1:07AM

So many mindreaders here with the ability to explain away the most basic everyday details like when you quit your job (and being in a band is indeed a job), you don’t have that job anymore.

Dude, they are in high school. Clam down.

Good job—when a copout for shitty writing like “they’re in high school” works, you might as well mash that button every time.

I guess I’ll just have to clam down.

my brother in christ they’re hormonal teenagers, they fuck up all the time. look at me, i’m a teenager, i fuck up all the time.

That’s certainly true.

Also, it seems that people keep saying they are upset with this chapter because Aki is the one who apologized and Shiho didn't... but I didn't take any of what Aki said as an apology. She does kinda indirectly say she was wrong, so maybe people consider that an apology? To me, she just said they were both misunderstanding, or "didn't know who they really were" so now that they do know, now that the air is cleared, she would like to start over. And I think that's great. I think that's awesome writing.

Nice, I was waiting for your response, honestly. It's turned into a bit of a mess. And agreed about what Aki's doing here. But I already mentioned the fixation with blame, external punishment and this tiresome (and sometimes oddly flippant) Aki vs. Shiho thing. They both feel guilty for different things, for sure and by the nature of her character much of Shiho's "punishment" is internal and self inflicted. What I find important is that Aki (with some great help from Hima) succeeds in saving Shiho from her unhealthy desire for self destructive isolation (as well as her unhealthy relationship to music that connects to her insecurities) and while doing so Aki is saved/saves herself, inadvertently through Shiho's antics, from her unhealthy unrequited love. I don't know that she would have moved on from her crush had it not been for these very trying and emotional events that were strong enough to pull her attention for such a long period of time. This is honestly a moment of strength for Aki and it's no wonder this important chapter chose to focus the agency and ultimately the choice with her. They both reset their relationship to each other but also within themselves so it'll be interesting to see how they are after everything. I imagine they'll have more interactions in the future to flesh their new status out and talk more. They only separated a couple months ago so it's not like it's been years. Everything doesn't need to be said all at once.

last edited at Jul 23, 2023 6:40AM

i feel like the majority of shiho haters are huge examples of people criticizing things they don’t understand. some of them have some sense and reason behind their hate, but others just seem to act like all shiho has done is hurt people. which isn’t true at all.
shiho has brought people together, if she hadn’t quit the band there’s a big chance himari and yori would’ve never met. people seem to only focus on the things she’s done wrong, and seem to forget the good things she’s done.
she’s a character that has reasons to be criticized, but all characters do. and don’t get me wrong, she has made mistakes.
imo she’s one of the best written characters in this manga. she clearly has abandonment issues, a friend of hers died, she’s been thrown away by many bands before. she’s lost so much, taken so many hits, she’s realistic.
and there’s 100% a reason why she seems so obsessed with being the best. again, she’s lost so much, ofc there’s something she wants to “win” or hold on to. and that’s music.
i don’t think aki and shiho would be a toxic relationship. aki seems to understand shiho much more than the others… besides himari. she’s one of the only people who’s taken the time to form some kind of relationship with shiho, or some kind of understanding of with her, even if it had its problems. (i wish some fans would try this too…)
anyway, there’s my little rant.

Ok, so first of all, Shiho was just leaving the band. You can't credit her for bringing people together, she had no influence in getting Yori to join, and she certainly never wanted that. That is not a good thing she has done, since she has done nothing in that regard.

Please feel free to tell me about all the other good things Shiho has done. Take your time, I will wait.

As far as I remember the flashbacks, most of the hits she takes were self-inflicted, like she got thrown out of her bands for being to perfectionistic and confrontational.

But since this is a sentiment that comes up again and again: Very little serious critique comes from a place of hate for Shiho, she is a fictional character, after all. Most people either dislike the change of direction and focus she represents for the manga, or find her behaviour unfitting and immersion-breaking.

For example, to make my issue with her clear: I do not hate her because of her faults, instead the fact that noone in the story acknowledges these faults, and she faces no negative repercussions for it and gets rewarded in the end, breaks my immersion and makes me like the story less. While Shiho in a vakuum is a realistic character (horrible people exist), the way everyone in the story reacts to her makes no sense, and I don't like it if stuff makes no sense.

Okay, but I mean aki does deserve better.

And at the same time. Shiho did blackmail, gaslight, extort and tantrum her way to a gf

when tf did she blackmail or gaslight

A lot of people seem to forget that Shiho made Himawari a part of the battle of the bands bet, with her staying as their manager, mainly to get at Yori. And since that is not the first time she used Himawari against Yori, you could call that blackmail. She also did give Aki a bullshit reason for leaving the band, telling Aki it is her fault because they are not good enough as a band, which could be seen as gaslighting.

And lastly, emotions can explain behaviour, but never excuse it.

last edited at Jul 23, 2023 7:18AM

Also, it seems that people keep saying they are upset with this chapter because Aki is the one who apologized and Shiho didn't... but I didn't take any of what Aki said as an apology. She does kinda indirectly say she was wrong, so maybe people consider that an apology? To me, she just said they were both misunderstanding, or "didn't know who they really were" so now that they do know, now that the air is cleared, she would like to start over. And I think that's great. I think that's awesome writing.

Nice, I was waiting for your response, honestly. It's turned into a bit of a mess. And agreed about what Aki's doing here. But I already mentioned the fixation with blame, external punishment and this tiresome (and sometimes oddly flippant) Aki vs. Shiho thing. They both feel guilty for different things, for sure and by the nature of her character much of Shiho's "punishment" is internal and self inflicted. What's important is that Aki (with some help) succeeds in saving Shiho from her unhealthy desire for self destructive isolation (as well as her unhealthy relationship to music that connects to her insecurities) and while doing so Aki is saved/saves herself, inadvertently through Shiho's antics, from her unhealthy unrequited love. I don't know that she would have moved on from her crush had it not been for these very trying and emotional events that were strong enough to pull her attention for such a long period of time. They both reset their relationship to each other but also within themselves so it'll be interesting to see how they are after everything. I imagine they'll have more interactions in the future to flesh their new status out and talk more. They only separated a couple months ago so it's not like it's been years. Everything doesn't need to be said all at once.

How was Aki's love unhealthy? I don't think it has ever affected her, or anyone else, negatively. It was unrequited, but she took it like a champ. She accepted that Yori did not love her back, stayed friends and did her best to not let her love influence her behaviour, until she was ready to move on. I would say that is a pretty much textbook how to do case.

Also the "fixation on blame and external punishment" is simply how the human mind works. We humans are BIG on pattern recognition, and that is part of the reason we abhor unfairness. "If you do good, good things should happen to you" and "If you do bad, bad things should happen to you" is a very simple pattern we understand and prefer since it helps living in a group, and we are social animals. That is why there are so many stories where the good guy wins in the end, because anything else, while being more realistic, just feels wrong.

Of course, this simple pattern gets uprouted by our complex, tangled emotions, so we are all to happy to break the pattern for people we feel empathy towards. Which can be a good thing, since the Code of Hammurabi is not exactly the peak legal system of humanity, IMO. In this case, however, it just means people who don't care to assign blame for Shiho's objective faults like her enough to pattern-break, and the rest do not. Nothing all too complicated or surprising.

Of course, this simple pattern gets uprouted by our complex, tangled emotions, so we are all to happy to break the pattern for people we feel empathy towards. Which can be a good thing, since the Code of Hammurabi is not exactly the peak legal system of humanity, IMO. In this case, however, it just means people who don't care to assign blame for Shiho's objective faults like her enough to pattern-break, and the rest do not. Nothing all too complicated or surprising.

We're closer to something, somewhat agreeable I guess but not really there. For example, your characterization of "not caring to assign blame for Shiho's faults" is a bit hollow (unless you're just grouping every person who disagrees with you into the same pot of beliefs). I'm not sure where I've not assigned her blame or fault for something? Not fixating on blame is not disregarding culpability. Regardless, I'm not surprised by reactions, they've been mostly predictable, for better or worse. It's just necessary to mention when things become a bit messy and unproductive.

How was Aki's love unhealthy? I don't think it has ever affected her, or anyone else, negatively. It was unrequited, but she took it like a champ. She accepted that Yori did not love her back, stayed friends and did her best to not let her love influence her behaviour, until she was ready to move on. I would say that is a pretty much textbook how to do case.

Unhealthy in the sense that it was something she was struggling to get over, struggling to understand her feelings with this new change. Shiho's appearance came at a perfect or (maybe I should say) "useful" time for Aki. It gave Aki something to fixate on and prioritize over dealing with her lose of Yori. Yes, Aki wasn't self sabotaging or acting in a destructive way but she verbalized her discomfort and uncertainty about her future and place on a couple occasions. Shiho came right after Aki lost Yori. Her introduction directly cut into the beginnings of Aki's road to accepting her loss. We don't really know if things would have become worse over time but we do know that Aki was still transitioning then, and was still unsure of where she could stand. Through these events with Shiho, Aki could right what she felt was an old wrong, get her mind off her heartache with Yori but most importantly, recontextualize her relationship with Yori and Hime (which she does quite a bit during this arc and talks about).

last edited at Jul 23, 2023 7:58AM

How was Aki's love unhealthy? I don't think it has ever affected her, or anyone else, negatively. It was unrequited, but she took it like a champ. She accepted that Yori did not love her back, stayed friends and did her best to not let her love influence her behaviour, until she was ready to move on. I would say that is a pretty much textbook how to do case.

Unhealthy in the sense that it was something she was struggling to get over, struggling to understand her feelings with this new change.

So in other words, a textbook healthy way of dealing with an unrequited love is going to be defined as “unhealthy” in order to make the case for Shiho’s entry into the narrative?

This is argument as word game.