Please feel free to tell me about all the other good things Shiho has done. Take your time, I will wait.

As I wrote a couple of months ago, Shiho is doing her best (along with Momoka and Hajime) to keep the memory of her former friend/rival, Kyou, alive, and honor her, which is nothing to scoff at. Especially considering that she formed her current band at a moment when she wanted to quit music altogether. I say this because I think that many readers underestimate the weight that her death had on Shiho. Even the fact that she chose to play the guitar (Kyou's favorite instrument) after their fight can be understood as Shiho's way of staying connected to her.

A lot of people seem to forget that Shiho made Himawari a part of the battle of the bands bet, with her staying as their manager, mainly to get at Yori. And since that is not the first time she used Himawari against Yori, you could call that blackmail. She also did give Aki a bullshit reason for leaving the band, telling Aki it is her fault because they are not good enough as a band, which could be seen as gaslighting.

Yeah, that was mean from her part, but the whole problem was caused by Himari herself to begin with (Shiho ended up being pressured to tell why she left the band in front of everyone), and Shiho at least did apologized to her in the very next chapter.
And is not her fault that Yori had/has a lot of insecurities regarding her relationship with Himari and regarding Shiho herself (some kind of inferiority complex in my opinion).

after writing my essay (which I apologize for, ill try not to let it happen again)

I didn't reply to that post because I got caught up in the heat of the debate, but you were able to put into words many of the thoughts that I had but just didn't know how to express them adequately, so I hope you continue to write those.

Haven't been here for a while and now everybody likes Shiho. I don't feel special anymore.

It just looks that way because now it's more even than ever, and I'm happy about that.

last edited at Jul 23, 2023 8:34AM

How was Aki's love unhealthy? I don't think it has ever affected her, or anyone else, negatively. It was unrequited, but she took it like a champ. She accepted that Yori did not love her back, stayed friends and did her best to not let her love influence her behaviour, until she was ready to move on. I would say that is a pretty much textbook how to do case.

Unhealthy in the sense that it was something she was struggling to get over, struggling to understand her feelings with this new change.

So in other words, a textbook healthy way of dealing with an unrequited love is going to be defined as “unhealthy” in order to make the case for Shiho’s entry into the narrative?

This is argument as word game.

My goodness lol. If you want to use a different word, fine. Call it an obstacle, an issue, troubles, her trauma or don't use an adjective at all etc. This is not useful. I described what I meant and when questioned, took the chance to further explain. My point doesn't change regardless. Aki was beginning to work through something. I'm not going to now argue over semantics. I'm also not really "making a case," in the way that phrase normally works. We're sharing different perspectives on how we read and interacted with the story. I was replied to by someone I hadn't talked to and replied back.

I didn't reply to that post because I got caught up in the heat of the debate, but you were able to put into words many of the thoughts that I had but just didn't know how to express them adequately, so I hope you continue to write those.

Yeah, agree or disagree, those longer posts are fun to read and think about. They're also not essays at all. They're a couple paragraphs, if even that. Not that much. It's better than one sentence quips and the "gotcha" comments, to me They create or move discussion somewhere.

last edited at Jul 23, 2023 9:16AM

Shit, I'm late and I have pages of comments to read through... anyway, I will write my opinion first without reading them:

... in short, it's basically as bad as I expected, and even though I fully knew it was coming, I still felt second hand embarassment for all the people in the crowd that had to listen to this sappy bullshit that didn't even make sense (and I bet the pages of comments I skipped over sum up perfectly why :P) But THANK FUCK, FESTIVAL IS FINALLY OVER, maybe now we can get literally anything else (hopefully not involving Shiho in the process, but I'm afraid the author will probably want to elaborate on this relationship post-reconcillation... but again, that would be good writing which this author rarely displays so I'm still hopeful).

In short, don't cry because it happened, smile because it's over :P

last edited at Jul 23, 2023 8:48AM

In the end, that the author was able to write this story well and is receiving recognition for it matters a lot more than (and, if I think about it, comes less as a surprise) than a bunch of random people on these forums.

These kinds of comments keep popping up in discussions here, you know the "yeah well, the author could not care less about your random negative opinions" and such, like it's the biggest gotcha ever.

Firstly, no duh, this is not a shocking revelation. Secondly, I really doubt they could give a rat's ass about glowing positive comments either coming from people who pirated their work anyway. It's so silly trying to bring the author into it as if they are your friend, or like a person you can tag in as an impenetrable shield. When was appeal to popularity ever a good argument anyway? This isn't even a slight on Takeshima Eku or anyone else, good for them for being popular, it's just such a vapid argument to start throwing any given work's success around when you don't like other people saying mean things about it (putting aside trollish drive-by posts anyway).

Anywho sorry for the meta commentary, how about that Shiho eh?

I caught up with the comments, they certainly didn't disappoint, but I think this one sums up my thoughts perfectly:

Shiho didn't do anything wrong - if she did it was justified - if it isn't justifiable it wasn't that bad - if it was that bad it's because she a teenager

... and if it's not because she is a teenager, it's because she had an acquaintance that died. (I'd hesitate to say they were even friends).

We can argue all day about what it means for the character to be "well-written", but I'm still low-key shocked there's people that straight up like Shiho. I don't think she has a single redeeming quality to her (and as people helpfully pointed out, even in this big reconcillation chapter she still didn't really say anything positive to anyone, she basically barely accepted someone else pouring her heart out). Even if you argue she faced lots of difficulties, setbacks, breakups or whatever, she's still very unlikeable because of the way she reacted to it (which is being a bitch in almost every appearance). If this chapter was meant to portray any sort of change, I think it mostly failed at that (and no, dead girl doesn't help, I still see it mostly as a cheap gotcha).

last edited at Jul 23, 2023 9:49AM

If this chapter was meant to portray any sort of change, I think it mostly failed at that (and no, dead girl doesn't help, I still see it mostly as a cheap gotcha).

Speaking of change out of nowhere, Aki’s “handshake as Geiger counter of unrequited love,” the negative readings of which gave her the go-ahead to smoothly re-target her romantic affections from Yori to Shiho, is an imaginative new trope that’s sure to become a new standard in romance manga.

I caught up with the comments, they certainly didn't disappoint, but I think this one sums up my thoughts perfectly:

Shiho didn't do anything wrong - if she did it was justified - if it isn't justifiable it wasn't that bad - if it was that bad it's because she a teenager

... and if it's not because she is a teenager, it's because she had an acquaintance that died. (I'd hesitate to say they were even friends).

Won't really touch this stuff. Maybe someone else can/will if that's what they said. Doesn't seem to apply to me.

We can argue all day about what it means for the character to be "well-written", but I'm still low-key shocked there's people that straight up like Shiho. I don't think she has a single redeeming quality to her (and as people helpfully pointed out, even in this big reconciliation chapter she still didn't really say anything positive to anyone, she basically barely accepted someone else pouring her heart out). Even if you argue she faced lots of difficulties, setbacks, breakups or whatever, she's still very unlikeable because of the way she reacted to it (which is being a bitch in almost every appearance). If this chapter was meant to portray any sort of change, I think it mostly failed at that (and no, dead girl doesn't help, I still see it mostly as a cheap gotcha).

Yeah, not liking or liking her is up to the individual (and unavoidably affected by personality, background etc.). From my perspective, the only change this chapter focused on (and the point of the dead girl) was Shiho's giving up her destructive, self-isolating based on her insecurities. She is not changing in the sense of altering her overall personality; instead she's finally deciding (while being pushed along the way by Aki and Hime) that it might not be the best idea to run away from those (aka. Aki) she has complicated relationships with as that has not worked out. The dead girl is once again reminding her of what that decision resulted in last time. Her last line is more of a tongue-in-cheek, typical tsundere phrase that is not-unexpected for her personality and one you could take offence to but I don't personally see as anything antagonistic. It'll work for some, not for others, but that's how I read the decision or "change" she's making, here. It's a slight but important change of decision created mostly through Aki's persistence. And I've already said something about Aki's handshake and her delayed revelation, so I'll leave that.

last edited at Jul 23, 2023 11:09AM

it's because she had an acquaintance that died. (I'd hesitate to say they were even friends).

Kyou was the most important person in her life prior to met Aki.

Of course, this simple pattern gets uprouted by our complex, tangled emotions, so we are all to happy to break the pattern for people we feel empathy towards. Which can be a good thing, since the Code of Hammurabi is not exactly the peak legal system of humanity, IMO. In this case, however, it just means people who don't care to assign blame for Shiho's objective faults like her enough to pattern-break, and the rest do not. Nothing all too complicated or surprising.

We're closer to something, somewhat agreeable I guess but not really there. For example, your characterization of "not caring to assign blame for Shiho's faults" is a bit hollow (unless you're just grouping every person who disagrees with you into the same pot of beliefs). I'm not sure where I've not assigned her blame or fault for something? Not fixating on blame is not disregarding culpability. Regardless, I'm not surprised by reactions, they've been mostly predictable, for better or worse. It's just necessary to mention when things become a bit messy and unproductive.

Well, my point of contention is that Shiho is not blamed for her behaviour within the story. So maybe a better way of putting it would be "not caring about Shiho being blamed by/within the story", instead of not assigning blame yourself. If we agree that Shiho has faults and what these are, and you simply prefer the resolution and don't care about these faults being adressed or Shiho suffering external consequences, while I do, that is a simple matter of preference/priorities. Which is absolutely fine. If you allow me to be flippant for a moment: It is ok to like bad writing.

To extend an olive branch: I am aware that my reaction to Shiho is an emotional one, though the writing does not do it any favors either. I simply watched too much stuff like RE:Creators and IBO S2 and really hate it in stories when antagonistic characters get away scot-free with the shit they pulled. You are free to call my dislike of Karma-Houdinis "fixating on blame", of course.

How was Aki's love unhealthy? I don't think it has ever affected her, or anyone else, negatively. It was unrequited, but she took it like a champ. She accepted that Yori did not love her back, stayed friends and did her best to not let her love influence her behaviour, until she was ready to move on. I would say that is a pretty much textbook how to do case.

Unhealthy in the sense that it was something she was struggling to get over, struggling to understand her feelings with this new change. Shiho's appearance came at a perfect or (maybe I should say) "useful" time for Aki. It gave Aki something to fixate on and prioritize over dealing with her lose of Yori. Yes, Aki wasn't self sabotaging or acting in a destructive way but she verbalized her discomfort and uncertainty about her future and place on a couple occasions. Shiho came right after Aki lost Yori. Her introduction directly cut into the beginnings of Aki's road to accepting her loss. We don't really know if things would have become worse over time but we do know that Aki was still transitioning then, and was still unsure of where she could stand. Through these events with Shiho, Aki could right what she felt was an old wrong, get her mind off her heartache with Yori but most importantly, recontextualize her relationship with Yori and Hime (which she does quite a bit during this arc and talks about).

Gonna have to hard disagree here. Struggle in and of itself is not only not unhealthy, is is a necessary component for humans to stay mentally healthy. Sounds a bit shitty, but I did not design the way we operate. Humans need struggle in our life, we need adversity, problems to solve and challenge to grow from. This has also been observed in animals, see the Universe 25 - study (a warning for the uninitiated - not a light read). The way we react to struggle can and often is unhealthy, but just struggling with something can also be a positive sign of growth.

Now, within the story it is correct that Shiho is what triggered the change in Aki, but doubt it was necessary. IMO, Aki would have overcome it on her own or through a different trigger, albeit later in life, maybe after graduating. I just hate the execution of it all, with Aki showing more regret than Shiho ever did.

Now, within the story it is correct that Shiho is what triggered the change in Aki, but doubt it was necessary. IMO, Aki would have overcome it on her own or through a different trigger, albeit later in life, maybe after graduating. I just hate the execution of it all, with Aki showing more regret than Shiho ever did.

I'll focus on this part since the "unhealthy" language doesn't matter and this sentence is what we agree on and was somewhat the point anyway. Yes, it might be true that she'd eventually struggle through on her own, just like all of us might get through our struggles on our own, but once someone or some thing does interfere and affect us positively or negatively, we can't ever know for sure. It's hard to say what was "necessary." In this arc/story, Shiho's presence inadvertently helped Aki's struggle, that's just the observation.

last edited at Jul 23, 2023 10:42AM

it's because she had an acquaintance that died. (I'd hesitate to say they were even friends).

Kyou was the most important person in her life prior to met Aki.

Maybe that's what the author was going for, but in my opinion it was executed extremely poorly. If we exclude chapter focusing specifically on Kyou from the manga, nothing really changes, it's mostly not implied before that explanation, and has no bearing on anything since (I guess until now, pulled like rabbit from a hat). If it affected Shiho so much you'd think we saw more signs of it. (Although to be fair it might be my poor memory, this story is exceptionally good at making me forget important details, these are simply my feelings as I was following it).

So the fact that Kyou is in the story at all feels to me just like a half-assed attempt to make Shiho more symphatetic. It's like the author would do anything, even kill off a random character that didn't exist before, instead of actually make Shiho display any positive traits.

last edited at Jul 23, 2023 10:44AM

Just saw this while editing the other comment:

If it affected Shiho so much you'd think we saw more signs of it

Maybe. I also don't want to go through the story again, so I feel you there. The whole reason for Shiho's new band was because she spent what seemed to be years visiting her grave and keeping her (the grave) updated on her life updates. She met the other friends at this grave (after quitting the band and coming there to cry) and they decided to create the band (and go back into her unhealthy relationship with music) because of this friend. I don't know if "friend" is the best word, I agree, because Shiho tended to push people away when she felt insecure. We could define it however, but she was affected and I understood much of her actions to be somewhat based on this new directive and guilt (which then gets mixed up in the fight with Aki).

last edited at Jul 23, 2023 10:44AM

Please feel free to tell me about all the other good things Shiho has done. Take your time, I will wait.

As I wrote a couple of months ago, Shiho is doing her best (along with Momoka and Hajime) to keep the memory of her former friend/rival, Kyou, alive, and honor her, which is nothing to scoff at. Especially considering that she formed her current band at a moment when she wanted to quit music altogether. I say this because I think that many readers underestimate the weight that her death had on Shiho. Even the fact that she chose to play the guitar (Kyou's favorite instrument) after their fight can be understood as Shiho's way of staying connected to her.

Ok, that was my fault, should have been more specific. Tell me about good things she did for other people. Her way of dealing with her grief of Kyou could be seen as entirely self-serving. But let us be charitable and say she did it as much to help Momoka and Hajime as for herself. Even then, this counts as much as the one brazilian goal in the 7:1 match against Germany: Technially a hit, but entirely too little too late.

Of course Kyou's death has had an enormous effect on Shiho (although I also agree that they were not really friends, they did not have much of a relationship before Shiho started to hate her as far as I recall), but the problem is it made her more of a bitch instead of less of one. I wrote a while back that in the flashbacks, Shiho showed signs of becoming a better person before starting Lorelei. Though that was before her whole backstory with them and Kyou turned out to be a front for her temper-trantrum about Aki anyway.

i’m just gonna try to ignore the whole shiho argument.
on another note, my curious ass brain really needs to know how kyou died. how it happened matters a lot.

Haven't been here for a while and now everybody likes Shiho. I don't feel special anymore.

nah barely anybody likes shiho it’s actually kinda crazy

Before every post in here was about hating Shiho and just a few people were trying to analyze her character, even if they didn't like her. So yeah, now i see more people liking her, its a win I'm taking.

they did not have much of a relationship before Shiho started to hate her as far as I recall

What Shiho hated was the fact that she was better at playing the violin than she was, not Kyou herself. It's basically the same thing that happened with Aki: Shiho couldn't stand not being number 1 and decided to cut ties with her entirely.

having a bit of time to think about it, this is a debate between those who enjoy the story despite the negatives, and those who cant enjoy the story because of the negatives.

so, it goes without saying there will be no agreement, since those who like the story despite its negatives will focus on the positives and dismiss the negatives as no big deal.

while, those who cant enjoy the story because of its negatives will focus on the negative aspects, as its making most if not all of the positive aspects of the story rather pointless.

they did not have much of a relationship before Shiho started to hate her as far as I recall

What Shiho hated was the fact that she was better at playing the violin than she was, not Kyou herself. It's basically the same thing that happened with Aki: Shiho couldn't stand not being number 1 and decided to cut ties with her entirely.

Before realizing kyo was better a violin they talked like two times, and it weren't like deep or really long ones, they weren't really that close before shiho decided to cut ties with kyo.

having a bit of time to think about it, this is a debate between those who enjoy the story despite the negatives, and those who cant enjoy the story because of the negatives.

so, it goes without saying there will be no agreement, since those who like the story despite its negatives will focus on the positives and dismiss the negatives as no big deal.

I think it boils down to how much you think trauma and other external factors as intense emotions deflect responsability for our own actions.

If you believe that no matter what we're masters of our actions ergo we should be held accountable for them no matter what, you're more likely to find shiho, her development and conclusion lackluster and poorly written

On the other hand if you think that emotions are things that are completely out of our control and it's ok and only natural to succumb to them and their most desteuctive impulses, you probably will find the shiho plot relatable and not as flawed as other people think

Also I'm gonna allow myself to be a bit of an asshole here. If you don't mind poor writting as long as beautiful illustrated and portraits really strong emotions you're more like to like this arc

i’m just gonna try to ignore the whole shiho argument.

welcome to the club

i’m just gonna try to ignore the whole shiho argument.

welcome to the club

We have a club now? Joined!

i’m just gonna try to ignore the whole shiho argument.

welcome to the club

We have a club now? Joined!

what should we call it?

Before realizing kyo was better a violin they talked like two times, and it weren't like deep or really long ones, they weren't really that close before shiho decided to cut ties with kyo.

That's true, but she's despicted as Shiho's first friend (which makes sense considering her personality). And we could see how, even after several years, both of them remained tied to that short period of time in the past and regretted not having done things differently (Kyou in particular).

And even if you think that part of the reason why Shiho frequently visited her grave was out of guilt (which is surely at least partly true), it can't be denied that it reflects how important Kyou was to her.

It's very similar to what happened later in the story with Aki, except that she did get to do something before it's too late.

i’m just gonna try to ignore the whole shiho argument.

welcome to the club

We have a club now? Joined!

For better or worse, we've reached a point where it's basically impossible to talk about the series without mentioning Shiho sooner or later. And I'm pretty sure the discussions will get a lot more boring the moment she stops being the focus of the story.

last edited at Jul 25, 2023 10:48PM

Sorry if I missed this in the Shiho discussion (was waiting for my account to be approved) but does anyone know what the song Aki sings is? I did a cursory search and this one seems to suit SS Girls https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7m2YdSZWjaU but looking at the views/upload date I'm not super sure whether it’s the one the author intended.

i like shiho because she's a bitch and bitches are cool so she's slightly better than everyone else in this meandering melodramatic manga