benja posted:

i really thought this mangas was going to be a bitter sweet well written story about a girl getting over her platonic and urequited love then finding a new love but nope is just your usual my husband/boyfriend cheatonme/doesntloveme/hitsme so now im lesbian stuff

Yea, I really wished the drama would come from them being actually loving wife and husband and Uta having to deal with it rather than the typical, he is terrible, cheats on her and there is whole drama their marriage is not happy.

Huh..that would be actually really interesting. I would love to see a story like that, where it's more introspective and not as dependent on the established couple being unhappy. Thanks for introducing me to a new story concept.

i'm just a little dissapointed because the idea that the brother may be a good person (though imperfect) makes this a difficult manga to take sides. Yes, i want a yuri ending but if the married couple are happy and good to one another, it would be wrong to break them up. Which is the percieved dilemma.
So you think the character hasn't changed but rather the problems are more obvious and blatant? That actually seems more likely.

i do think the husband change and also the direction of the manga in general
i think the author planed to go the way you described first being a bitter sweet manga where there is no good or evil characters just people with complex and realistic issues like falling in love to the wrong person or not being the perfect husband but still loving your wife
but then realize that a manga like this would upset and divide the fanbase so instead choose to go the safe way making the husband a motherfucker
so now you dont need to choose a side since now there is only one side

i'm just a little dissapointed because the idea that the brother may be a good person (though imperfect) makes this a difficult manga to take sides.

Reiichi has been shown to be a crappy husband since his first non-flashback appearance in the story—we see him forgetting their anniversary and sort of shrugging it off. He hasn’t been shown to be malicious, as cheaters usually are in these stories, but betraying your wife only not being overtly mean about it is a pretty low bar for “good person.”

Hmmm. All of you irritating people who keep brining up things i forgot and making my point weaker. Stop that. I may have to resort to name calling soon.

But seriously, i still stand by my point about expecting something more from the manga. The direction that it could have proceeded compared to where it went is disappointing. The brother has become the cliché male whom we all detest. Though its apparent that i either forgot many of these hints or hadn't noticed them on my first read that the mangaka was alluding to him being scum.

i really thought this mangas was going to be a bitter sweet well written story about a girl getting over her platonic and urequited love then finding a new love but nope is just your usual my husband/boyfriend cheatonme/doesntloveme/hitsme so now im lesbian stuff

I made a point about this some months ago. A story should focus around a character's most interesting time of their life. This difficult and complicated mess she has herself in counts. So even if it were that she ends up single, it would still be a very interesting read.

i'm just a little dissapointed because the idea that the brother may be a good person (though imperfect) makes this a difficult manga to take sides. Yes, i want a yuri ending but if the married couple are happy and good to one another, it would be wrong to break them up. Which is the percieved dilemma.
So you think the character hasn't changed but rather the problems are more obvious and blatant? That actually seems more likely.

i do think the husband change and also the direction of the manga in general
i think the author planed to go the way you described first being a bitter sweet manga where there is no good or evil characters just people with complex and realistic issues like falling in love to the wrong person or not being the perfect husband but still loving your wife
but then realize that a manga like this would upset and divide the fanbase so instead choose to go the safe way making the husband a motherfucker
so now you dont need to choose a side since now there is only one side

The manga Basilisk was great when i was in highschool because how different people chose different sides as the heroes and villians. It divided myself from some friends as we were cheering for different people for different reasons. It was great.
And it seemed that this was going a somewhat similar direction. No, you want her love to be requited. But the wife cheating would sully the situation and her own worth. The brother caring for both of them and NOT being a complete dickhead. The sister who loves the two of them for different reasons and doesn't want to split them.

And suddenly (not so suddenly to some in the comments) he's cheating, or likely is, and everything just gets thrown out amd becomes a lot simpler. Don't take what made this special and throw it out.

I think there's a little more depth to the brother than just "Imma cheating on my wife with an executive woman, because she's a clingy childish klutz".

It's been shown that he has some intuition about what's going on between his sister and Kaoru, like here, here, here and here.

"It was your plan to get closer to Uta from the very beginning". So, unrequited on the surface, maybe. But Reiichi, knowing them both very well, maybe picked up on something on Kaoru's side too.

It doesn't excuse him from cheating (if he actually does?), but he's not a total piece of shit.

Anyway, we will see.

last edited at Apr 25, 2018 6:22AM

I’m sorry, I’m confused about this “good brother/husband” theory, given that the very first thing we see about him is, “Our anniversary? Oh, right—sorry, outta town, business trip. Um, my bad.”

He’s not shown as being actively evil, but I’m not sure that buying ice cream for his sister and a general air of cluelessness makes the revelation that he’s cheating a big turnaround for the character.

mint-leaf posted:

benja posted:

i really thought this mangas was going to be a bitter sweet well written story about a girl getting over her platonic and urequited love then finding a new love but nope is just your usual my husband/boyfriend cheatonme/doesntloveme/hitsme so now im lesbian stuff

Yea, I really wished the drama would come from them being actually loving wife and husband and Uta having to deal with it rather than the typical, he is terrible, cheats on her and there is whole drama their marriage is not happy.

Huh..that would be actually really interesting. I would love to see a story like that, where it's more introspective and not as dependent on the established couple being unhappy. Thanks for introducing me to a new story concept.

That is exactly what I expected when starting to reading it. Good brother loving both his wife and sister, even if he sometimes make mistakes, but it happens to anyone. Good sister-in-law loving her husband and wanting to be friendly with his sister. And then sister who loves her brother and is in love with her sister-in-law. The drama just write itself. While I bet it would upset most people, I didn't expect her to actually end up with Kaoru. And manga seemed to go for that direction. Realistic angst about realistic issue. But then we got weird hints at "brother never really loved Kaoru" and of course cheating. Whatever he has some bigger reason or not, I don't care. I didn't read it for that kind of stuff.

benja posted:

i do think the husband change and also the direction of the manga in general
i think the author planed to go the way you described first being a bitter sweet manga where there is no good or evil characters just people with complex and realistic issues like falling in love to the wrong person or not being the perfect husband but still loving your wife
but then realize that a manga like this would upset and divide the fanbase so instead choose to go the safe way making the husband a motherfucker
so now you dont need to choose a side since now there is only one side

I hate to beat a dead horse over it (and kinda defend the author), but in this case I'm more likely to think it is caused by editorial input (yes, I hate it so much). It is highly possible author did start writing it planing to go the real angst route, but either his editor told him to change it because he didn't think people would read it/it would be better this way or manga wasn't selling that well so they told him to change it to interest more people. Editors in Japan (and I guess in general) have a huge power over what goes into manga in their magazines, so if they would ever felt like this wouldn't sell/work, they would change it without author really having a lot to say in the matter. And of course that doesn't mean they are always right, as they basically base everything on their experience and what did and didn't work in the past.

Nya-chan posted:

"It was your plan to get closer to Uta from the very beginning". So, unrequited on the surface, maybe.

If Kaoru actually liked Uta from the beginning and Reiichi actually notice it, then him marring her would make even less sense. Not to mention she was the one stubbornly asking him out constantly for over 7 years until he finally give her a yes (with ambiguity whatever he actually loves her or not), so it is very hard for me to believe she actually had feelings for his sister all along. And if she wanted to marry him so she can be closer to her... that is the same roundabout way of thinking that somehow him marring her so she can become closer to Kaoru is a good idea. I'm more inclined to believe he noticed Uta might feel something more for Kaoru after they married and he noticed Kaoru wanted to be friends with Uta for a long time, but nothing really more. If both Kaoru and Reiichi really only married so Kaoru can get together with Uta, then I call it the most convoluted drama I have ever read. And honestly seeing how worked up over possible cheating Kaoru is, it is really hard to see her as anything other than deeply in love with Reiichi.

I think there's a little more depth to the brother than just "Imma cheating on my wife with an executive woman, because she's a clingy childish klutz".

It doesn't excuse him from cheating (if he actually does?), but he's not a total piece of shit.

The point is I don't care. I didn't read it so I can read about him being ambiguous character who might or might not cheat on her and might actually have some deeper issues he didn't open about and for Kaoru to make this and this kind of monologues. I read it for Uta's unrequited love story, not Kaoru's or Reiichi's or their messed married life or whatever. Unless, now that I think about it, manga is about everyone's unrequited love and then suddenly all this mess would make sense, but it also means nobody will be happy at the end,

As a side note, it is so funny she says "Because I'm so scared of being rejected and dislike if I insist on forcing my way into their life" as a person who did this ;v I'm sorry but it feels like split personality or weird change of character. So she was perfectly fine chasing someone to date them until they accepted and even married her, as in, she become constant part of their life, but she is unable to actually be part of their life and is afraid of trying to connect with them deeper than just being a couple/officially married? I'm sorry but I just don't buy it. And if she really feels that way, then she is incredibly shallow person if she chased some without any intention of actually supporting or learning about them

last edited at Apr 25, 2018 8:42AM

weird change of character

Now I'm going to beat my own dead horse: something important involving all these characters happened in the past that did change them in significant ways (Uta used to be cheerful, but is only now beginning to come back around out of depression) or changed their relationships (Reiichi consistently blew off Kaoru or held her at arm's length emotionally, then he suddenly decided to marry her).

So the story (supposedly) has been about all of these characters all along, but the story's refusal to fill in those past blanks except for some very oblique hints is something that leads to several other flaws, like forcing us to pay attention only to Uta's emotional state, because that's almost all we've been given.

Blastaar posted:

weird change of character

Now I'm going to beat my own dead horse: something important involving all these characters happened in the past that did change them in significant ways (Uta used to be cheerful, but is only now beginning to come back around out of depression) or changed their relationships (Reiichi consistently blew off Kaoru or held her at arm's length emotionally, then he suddenly decided to marry her).

So the story (supposedly) has been about all of these characters all along, but the story's refusal to fill in those past blanks except for some very oblique hints is something that leads to several other flaws, like forcing us to pay attention only to Uta's emotional state, because that's almost all we've been given.

I see. Then I guess I really was reading wrong manga all along. Thanks for the info.

I see. Then I guess I really was reading wrong manga all along. Thanks for the info.

You seem miffed in this comment, and I'm not sure why. I don't think it's controversial to say that very early on the story indicates that something significant happened between the two families in the past, something that explains why the characters are the way they are when the story opens. We then get very little further information about what those events were, so important aspects of the characters remain undefined, and we're forced to speculate about their motivations in the dark.

Am I misstating something here?

Blastaar posted:

Am I misstating something here?

Well I thought it was pretty clear from my last post, but while something happening in the past that influenced character, that we don't know yet, isn't really something I dislike (in fact I like mysteries and that kind of subtle story telling hinting there is more going on, which is eventually revealed), I didn't think it will turn out to be main focus of the story and at this point, only thing that could explain to us, why things are the way they are and everything is so messed up. I read it for Uta's angst over her unrequited love, not for some kind of family drama with mystery elements where we watch all the characters trying to copy with their messed up situation. It simply turned to not be story I wanted to read. I don't think it means it is bad one. I bet I could actually enjoy it. But I'm very picky with my drama and I only read what I feel like reading. I felt like reading story about unrequited love so I was prepared for that. I wasn't prepared for all those other things that suddenly came to focus and took over the story.

Well I thought it was pretty clear from my last post, but while something happening in the past that influenced character, that we don't know yet, isn't really something I dislike (in fact I like mysteries and that kind of subtle story telling hinting there is more going on, which is eventually revealed), I didn't think it will turn out to be main focus of the story and at this point, only thing that could explain to us, why things are the way they are and everything is so messed up.

OK, now I get it--thanks for clarifying. I think we're both complaining about the same thing from two different directions. There doesn't seem to be any compelling reason to keep that information about the past so secret--all the characters know exactly what happened, but we don't.

You're right--that information gap has by default become "the main focus of the story," (because we can't get a real handle on the current situation without it) yet the story itself doesn't seem to give a f*ck about it anymore. When was the last time we even got a tiny hint that added to our understanding of those past events?

It's a triangle. You can't ignore one of the summits because he's male and maybe dishonest.

When was the last time we even got a tiny hint that added to our understanding of those past events?

The second most recent chapter. We learned Reiichi's half-estranged from his father and Uta wouldn't want to see him.

When was the last time we even got a tiny hint that added to our understanding of those past events?

The second most recent chapter. We learned Reiichi's half-estranged from his father and Uta wouldn't want to see him.

Right, but that just gives us more mysterious details (not unlike the scene with Kaoru coming across that old picture and gazing wistfully at it) rather than clarifying things like who exactly did what, why Uta was so deeply affected, or why Reiichi suddenly did an about-face in regard to Kaoru's affections.

There's nothing innately wrong with stories where the past interactions of the characters are slowly revealed, but if that's what this one is going for, it seems pretty awkward and erratic about it.

The reason Kaoru feels guilty over their family falling apart is obvious, its either a willing or unwilling affair with Reiichi's father (which I suspect started after he started dating Glasses) that eventually came to light. As to why Reiichii would just suddenly start dating/marrying her after telling her basically to fuck off for years is the result of that. Its probably a KimiNozo thing where she feels so guilty over it that it breaks her, so he stepped in to prevent her from just killing herself eventually. Of course he's still seeing his "real" girlfriend that I imagine he never stopped seeing.

Peccata posted:

The reason Kaoru feels guilty over their family falling apart is obvious, its either a willing or unwilling affair with Reiichi's father (which I suspect started after he started dating Glasses) that eventually came to light. As to why Reiichii would just suddenly start dating/marrying her after telling her basically to fuck off for years is the result of that. Its probably a KimiNozo thing where she feels so guilty over it that it breaks her, so he stepped in to prevent her from just killing herself eventually. Of course he's still seeing his "real" girlfriend that I imagine he never stopped seeing.

And that is exactly kind of stuff I didn't read this manga for.

last edited at Apr 25, 2018 12:37PM

^ That seems unlikely given the way Kaoru offered to come to see the father as she thought it would be polite and Reiichi brushed it off as unnecessary and added that she only knew his family's public face. It probably wasn't something Kaoru was heavily involved with. It seems there was a period of several years when Kaoru wasn't close with Uta and something happened then, so she maybe just feels guilty about not being around.

The way Reiichi has drastically changed in design is kind of off-putting to me. Like in the beginning he was well drawn and felt really involved with the story, and over time he becomes a background character looking amorphous blob. I guess the drama doesn't really bother or excite me because he looks so... unimportant now. I'm not sure if it's intentional since we're becoming aware of what he's doing or not, since the others have consistently looked great while he's degrading in quality.

I'm really hoping Uta commits to confessing now that we're here, or at least strongly implies to Kaoru that she's in love with her to get some of that weight off her chest. At the same time, Uta doesn't know about Reiichi cheating on her, so not only would a confession really inconvenience her, it'd be really awkward if they happened across him and Risako while on their trip, based on his reaction to the phone ringing it wasn't a simple "family trip" like he said it was.

based on his reaction to the phone ringing it wasn't a simple "family trip" like he said it was.

What he said was that his half-estranged father called him out of the blue to demand he come see him. His reactions were consistent with that.

Reejun posted:

based on his reaction to the phone ringing it wasn't a simple "family trip" like he said it was.

What he said was that his half-estranged father called him out of the blue to demand he come see him. His reactions were consistent with that.

While the father thing might be pretty much true and I dislike how author decided to interrupt Kaoru's confession with cellphone (one of the most annoying tropes), what really felt shady to me was how Reiichi used it to avoid conversation with Kaoru, when it was clear she wanted to talk with him about the trip thing. In previous panels it was clear from his expressions that while it might really be just a "business trip" and even if he was with Risako for other reasons than cheating (something related to work perhaps), it doesn't change the fact he clearly didn't want to have to explain it to Kaoru and when he heard she might not remember it, he was actually relieved a bit and never brought the issue himself again. So w/e he is cheating or not, there is still something shady going on.

Yeah, the “crucial conversation interrupted by a phone call at precisely the exact moment, never to be resumed” thing was pretty annoying, and also gives me a bad feeling about the upcoming confession, part 2—a payoff of “Never mind—it’s nothing” is not completely out of the question.

And I wouldn’t like that.

OMG OMG OMG THAT DAMN CLIFFHANGER THO FDJALFJDFAS

yall remeber this
https://dynasty-scans.com/forum/topics/13520-rich-imagination-discussion

yea thats how we want it

OMG OMG OMG THAT DAMN CLIFFHANGER THO FDJALFJDFAS

Honestly, at this point she might just say, "I'm going to sleep"
But who knows