Although Babylon's theoretical motives are kind of positive, my understanding is that that is not who they have been killing. To the contrary, they have been attempting to keep things calm so that change can (in theory) happen naturally in the longer term, by killing refugee leaders who agitate too much.

You said this in two different comments, but where did you get that idea?

I suppose it's open to SOME interpretation, but I got it from this line:
"Our influence exists only because we sow accidents among the refugees, namely those who threaten the peace or otherwise prove detrimental to the administration"
"Even if it means condemning them to oppression and exploitation?"
"They will not remain outsiders forever"

That kind of sounds to me like what I was talking about.

Right, yeah, that's what I thought, but reading it again is starker. The organization is definitely a force for the status quo, and huge assholes, either way. They clearly don't have a problem with murder and seem to believe in some long-term assimilation or something. I mostly got the positive part from how the Bishop states that they both started with the hope of helping the refugees, but disagreed over methods. So I assumed that was still the goal.

I really don't understand why campaigning for change, but not through violence is ever considered being "a force for the status quo", which is 100% why I can't agree with any of you.

Well, except we have no evidence that they campaign for change. To the contrary, their stance seems to be that if nobody does anything, change will eventually happen by itself in some organic way, and so the only important thing is to keep the powder keg from blowing up in the mean time. This seems delusional under the circumstances--many immigrant refugee populations do assimilate in a generation or two, but not if they're stuck in an apartheid situation with no opportunities to advance their status or integrate into the broader society.

As long as the factories keep running, nobody cares. I am starting to think Babylon only exists to maintain the status quo. THe hitmen only take out organized crime figures and some higher level drug dealers. In other words, those who could make money by exploiting refugees. As long as they keep the refugee population under control AND WORKING, then they're satisfied.

Well would you look at that, Benika is having the exact same debates we are, in the actual chapter.

The vigilantes did nothing wrong. Don't stab people and you won't get beat, simple as

This chapter cemented my hunch that the author is pretty much just winging it. It's perhaps a small detail, but the name "Babylon" went from being a made-up nickname by the Church that Hibai had never heard before, to an established name that the refugees openly talk about. Given that Hibai brought Benika here for the express purpose of seeing the vigilante violence, there's no way she wouldn't have heard the name before if it's being touted out to a first-time visitor and even has children's songs written about it. I'm surprised such a blatant mistake wasn't caught by the editor.

Of course, as I said before, it's not necessarily a bad thing. This reminds me of a Hollywood action thriller flick (only gayer), which also have similarly lackadaisy writing but which can still be entertaining if you don't think about it too much. That being said, with this being the case I do kind of wish it didn't dive this deep into murky ethical dilemmas, because this doesn't give me confidence that they'll be handled meaningfully.

I gotta say this has been abit all over the place in terms of tone. It started out being pretty grim and dark, then we got some looney toons chase scenes and date shenanigans and now were back to dark. I feel like this series would seem abit more sensible and coherent if the mood didnt jump so much.

last edited at Jul 18, 2023 3:13PM

I remember reading that this series was retweeted by Hideo Kojima...and YEP that would track.

There seem to be quite a few actually existing groups who are poor and oppressed, who nonetheless manage to emphasize community solidarity, restorative justice and stuff instead of fear and brutal punishment.

FWIW, we've jumped in at the "punishment" end of the pool; it could be that people are doing other things too, but Hibai brought Benika here, not to Refugee School.

But yeah, it'd be harder to build community if the refugees are from lots of different places, with different cultures.

Whether restorative justice actually has better outcomes is unclear; many studies say so, but selection bias is "rife", and reviews come to conflicting conclusions. Whether it's even doable in these circumstances is another question. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restorative_justice#Research

Plus, what if someone re-offends after going through that process? You still need a backup.

Alice learns the background of the mad hatter

I'm getting hunger games vibes at this point, with the mainland and the isolated labor sections

I gotta say this has been abit all over the place in terms of tone. It started out being pretty grim and dark, then we got some looney toons chase scenes and date shenanigans and now were back to dark. I feel like this series would seem abit more sensible and coherent if the mood didnt jump so much.

Or isn't really all over the place, the world of the refugee's and Babylon is grim as shizzle while the normal world is normal, pretty straightforward really

FWIW, we've jumped in at the "punishment" end of the pool; it could be that people are doing other things too, but Hibai brought Benika here, not to Refugee School.

Do you think Hibai is leaving a breadcrumb trail to Benika figuring out that Rose is a Killer?

There seem to be quite a few actually existing groups who are poor and oppressed, who nonetheless manage to emphasize community solidarity, restorative justice and stuff instead of fear and brutal punishment.

FWIW, we've jumped in at the "punishment" end of the pool; it could be that people are doing other things too, but Hibai brought Benika here, not to Refugee School.

But yeah, it'd be harder to build community if the refugees are from lots of different places, with different cultures.

I think the key here that we learned in this chapter is that this security force is essentially an arm of Babylon. The fact that the vigilantes are organized through a secretive top down government organization, who's main solution to problems is overwhelming violence, makes the violent nature of the vigilantes more understandable.

If the refugees themselves were able to organize their own forms of community as opposed to being told whats right by an organization like Babylon then maybe we could have seen something different, but we didn't.

I'm curious to see what the church's influence means in the refugee camp, presumably they have their own organizations which have different methods and goals, although they seem to be walking down the path of militarization and violence as well.

last edited at Jul 18, 2023 6:54PM

I gotta say this has been abit all over the place in terms of tone. It started out being pretty grim and dark, then we got some looney toons chase scenes and date shenanigans and now were back to dark. I feel like this series would seem abit more sensible and coherent if the mood didnt jump so much.

Or isn't really all over the place, the world of the refugee's and Babylon is grim as shizzle while the normal world is normal, pretty straightforward really

Except that both the chase scene and the date was about Babylon or at least had them be heavily involved.

Jesus fucking christ

Yes, Babylon is the nickname the church gave the Hitmen organization, that brings to question how the fk does the Vigilante force know about Babylon (The church's nick-name for the hitmen group) and even have FKING SONG ABOUT BABYLON!?....so that gives us 3 possible option.

Option A: The name of Babylon spread around due to the insiders from the church but they are cleaned and just got helped from Babylon to create the Vigilante grop (No insiders from the church or hitmen/Babylon)
Option B: There are people from Hitmen group(Babylon) inside the Vigilante force, helping the Vigilante force...or even worse...the Captain is also a insider brought by Babylon and is in on the plan to help Benika to see Babylon (Hitmen group) in a bad light thanks to Hibai's orders/asking for help.
Option C: (There are insiders from both the church and hitmen groups....reason why the Vigilante force know the term Babylon...)

Benika new friend might trying leave bread crumbs like a couple comment said/suggested....

The people inside/working for the Vigilante force probably have Victims too like the girl who parents died and how she got R@ped by her fellow refugee(was it a refugee or person from the mainland? Either way it still horrible and she shouldn't have to go through that experience....).
They want to work to keep the order...though the use of violence to enforced it while not the best idea is something that won't be done with any trouble/hesitation since like I said...there are victims inside the Vigilante force so they won't be afraid to punish others to attempt to keep order/prevent others from experiencing their pain.

Damn you Hibai!!!! If Benika finds out Rose being a Hitman thanks to your plans then you better hope you have a plane trip out of the country ASAP while a team of Elite body guards as you sleep with both eyes open at night...

The vigilantes did nothing wrong. Don't stab people and you won't get beat, simple as

People don't commit crimes because they think it's a fun hobby to get into, they commit crimes because their pushed into a corner and feel they have to. Brutally punishing individual offenders without addressing the material conditions that forced them to commit the crime in the first place dosen't solve anything and only encourages more violence. You think a single mother stealing food for her starving children is going to stop just beside she took a beating? And on top of that, composing the justice force of other refugees creates animosity amongst the people and creates more violence, while also conveniently keeping the people's attention away from the government that is putting them in that situation. Don't be fooled, what is being shown in this chapter is not a sense of justice, but of a governments ability to manipulate its people to hate eachother, ignore the government, and keep working to fuel the factories to produce goods for the more lucrative tax payers.

People don't commit crimes because they think it's a fun hobby to get into, they commit crimes because their pushed into a corner and feel they have to.

Who pushed them into a corner, why, and is that not a crime itself?

A lot of crime is situational, but it can't be abuse all the way down. Some people are just bad people. Or make very bad choices, at any rate.

Sure, a single mother stealing food for her kids is sympathetic. How about a person who abuses or rapes one of those kids, or the mother herself? What "material condition" should be addressed there?

If Babylon hadn't started the vigilante force, the refugees would probably have formed one of their own. Or worse, multiple competing gangs.

It's a bad situation sure, and the government is at fault. But the vigilantes? Well, they're a response to the "material conditions" of not having any other law enforcement. It's an ugly solution for an ugly situation, but given that, they seem a decent gang from the little we've seen.

I note the leader is willing to take a lot of outraged interrogation from this new kid... I'd guess that Benika's accent and fluency mark her as obviously a native[1], so he's being cautiously polite in general and maybe taking the opportunity to get some word out, too.

[1] Or maybe they're all talking English badly.

The vigilantes did nothing wrong. Don't stab people and you won't get beat, simple as

Ah yes, ascribing personal responsibility to a systematic issue. Definitely not a recipe for disaster.

The great majority of crime is caused by poverty, so as long as the refugees are kept in those conditions there will always be crime, no matter how much you beat them.

Straight up Hell itself,in post modern Japan no less.

Do we have clear indicators that this country is in fact Japan? I was getting the sense that it was supposed to be some other vague country.

It hasn't been outright stated, but it seems almost certain this is near-future japan. First off benika and her dad having japanese names, and the refugees adopting japanese names too (Rose Madder Shinegawa) or whatever her full alias was. Second are the local/express train lines, the japanese style convenience stores, and some japanese text on background signs and whatnot. Then you have the "refugee sushi" and "chili+fish sauce soup" which are all made from commonly available japanese staple foods which would likely be given either as rations or bought easily at a discount.

To some extent the story being told in this manga is already happening in Japan, albeit on a smaller scale with less flashy stunts. In order to keep the economy running (ie have a supply of workers to perform menial labor with low wages to prop up japanese businesses) the government has already started using work-visa programs to bring in immigrant labor, mostly from other parts of asia, and there are plenty of instances of immigrant employees trapped at their jobs with no way to leave unless they want to be deported.

Same, but it does seem to have a Japan flavour, of nothing else because of the author

Before my initial comment,I did in fact check to see what was the indicator that this is all in Japan itself,and indeed,sixth page of chapter one,bottom left corner,we get this:

Seventh page,top left :

12th page,bottom left :

Ignoring the nice cleavage,the place as a two parter doesn't seem to exist,but the two words separately have shown results for hotels in Japan.

16th page,middle left :

34th page,top right.

From the first chapter alone,we can say that,unless this is the return of a colonial Japanese empire with all the reclaimed land being part of the colony(wherever that colony is),this is Japan.

And oh boy,oh boy,oh boy...

...going from that...

...to that,this is why there is such as thing as too much freedom,and also why the Americans have to uphold their ammendments,especially the first and second,because the price of freedom is within your own two hands.

And she's still just a young'un.

Benika is being tempered more then any amount of Sunday school ever could,Rose is going to have the strongest person possible behind her.

Also,me Japanese buddy told me about how all over the place Japan is when it comes to refugees,2018 and 2019 saw them bring in immigrant workers from around Asia to help with growth,2021 was when they started looking into reworking how they treat refugees,2022 has Japan bringing in some Ukrainians,and 2023 had the 18th foreign person to die in the detainment centre since 2007,leading to even more reworking of the laws.

This comic is basically showing the extreme end conclusion should the door be opened wider whilst doing even less for those seeking safety.

Best.
Lesbian.
Comic.
Ever.

last edited at Jul 19, 2023 3:46AM

I gotta say this has been abit all over the place in terms of tone. It started out being pretty grim and dark, then we got some looney toons chase scenes and date shenanigans and now were back to dark. I feel like this series would seem abit more sensible and coherent if the mood didnt jump so much.

Or isn't really all over the place, the world of the refugee's and Babylon is grim as shizzle while the normal world is normal, pretty straightforward really

Except that both the chase scene and the date was about Babylon or at least had them be heavily involved.

The date was the hitmen in Benikas world, the normal world, the current mini arc is Benika in the refugee world

Is this the jumping of a large aquatic predator moment that makes me not want to read this series anymore

Man this shit got dark. Not much else like it though in the yuri sphere, pretty cool so far. Hope it keeps it’s odd sense of humor though and doesn’t become all depressing all the time.

...to that,this is why there is such as thing as too much freedom,and also why the Americans have to uphold their ammendments,especially the first and second,because the price of freedom is within your own two hands.

LOL are you kidding, the second amendment upholders are gleefully abetting our slide into fascism

The vigilantes did nothing wrong. Don't stab people and you won't get beat, simple as

Oh, an unregulated paramilitary force that uses excessive violence as a warning is sure to respect the right to a fair trial. Not even going to discuss the morality of literal medival punishments, but merly consider the fact that a significant portion of the convicted are surly innocent. There is a reason why we have police instead of villaige justice

last edited at Jul 19, 2023 1:17PM

...to that,this is why there is such as thing as too much freedom,and also why the Americans have to uphold their ammendments,especially the first and second,because the price of freedom is within your own two hands.

What? I am always really suspicious of arguments criticizing the Freedom of Speech Amendment, though the school shoting one is fair game. One of the greatest things about the US from a european perspective is the sheer involatibility of the constitution. While sure, it does bring with itself a lot of shit like the second, I am also entirely certain their freedom of speech is the most resilient in the entire world.

And she's still just a young'un.

Benika is being tempered more then any amount of Sunday school ever could,Rose is going to have the strongest person possible behind her.

Also,me Japanese buddy told me about how all over the place Japan is when it comes to refugees,2018 and 2019 saw them bring in immigrant workers from around Asia to help with growth,2021 was when they started looking into reworking how they treat refugees,2022 has Japan bringing in some Ukrainians,and 2023 had the 18th foreign person to die in the detainment centre since 2007,leading to even more reworking of the laws.

This comic is basically showing the extreme end conclusion should the door be opened wider whilst doing even less for those seeking safety.

Honestly, if Japan accepted more than a measly 202 refugees a year (2022), ultra-nationalistic, 'I deny my past and still think the Koreans are an inferior race' Japan would end this excact way. They don't have to do less, they just have to stay the way they are. Horribly racist and backwards.

Best.
Lesbian.
Comic.
Ever.

A gem, to be sure

Oh, an unregulated paramilitary force that uses excessive violence as a warning is sure to respect the right to a fair trial. Not even going to discuss the morality of literal medival punishments, but merly consider the fact that a significant portion of the convicted are surly innocent. There is a reason why we have police instead of villaige justice

For a lot of people, the issue isn't "is this perfect" but "is it better than doing nothing?"

Given the resources available to the refugees, even if the vigilante force was elected by the refugees, very little might change.

I wonder how many refugees there are. They have at least a few dozen 'offenders' in cages at once.

I noticed one of the kids is given a knife, "Oh it's me!" Going to stab the kid (because he stabbed) after beating him? That seems impractical... then you have to take care of him after a supposedly non-lethal punishment.

last edited at Jul 19, 2023 5:56PM