Shiho might be the single most unlikeable and poorly written character in any series on this site. It’s honestly hilarious that the author really wants everyone to sympathize with her and root for her, but she’s just the worst. This chapter was fantastic, only because seeing Shiho in pain makes the time wasted on the last 22 chapters of this series worth it. Shiho has more fucking page time than yori at this point. Shiho doesn’t deserve a happy ending. Aki and Shiho ending up together would ruin whatever quality is left in the story for me and explain why:

Aki blaming herself is just horrible writing, how the actual hell is she in any way responsible for Shiho turning into a monster? She liked someone else. Shiho didn’t say ANYTHING to her, saw she liked Yori, and immediately turned into the worst person ever. If Shiho had actually said something to Aki earlier and they got together then, the entire second half of the series would have never happened. Aki and Shiho getting together in the end literally renders the past 22 chapters of conflict pointless.
(Edit to fix the amount of chapters wasted on Shiho drama)

last edited at Mar 19, 2023 3:49AM

In this house we protect shiho
/Kneel

My biggest worry is that the author wont ever adress how much of an asshat shiho has been. Like im ok with her getting a happy ending but i want her to realise how much of a toxic idiot shes been and how shes massively sabotaged both herself and the people around her. Without that, a good resolution would feel pretty undeserved.

Yeah and it's her who help Yori writing the love song. Let's not re-write the story, she is the most important in the arc, not the story. Let's not pretend a character not even here for 15 chapters is the suposs driving force of the whole premise just because she leave the band.

What do you think will happen once the band competition is over? It's not like Shiho is going to be erased into thin air or moving to another city. Although she is now at peace with the idea of leaving her unrequited love behind, that does not mean that their relationship will stop at this point.

Their struggle is the flame that keep this series alive at this point, and I believe that fixing their bond is this manga's endgame.

Yeah I've assumed that as well. Every player here was there from the beginning or near it, so I've assumed this conflict would be the end. It makes sense, they've gotten good feedback from their audience (I guess not on here) and sales have been good (wishing luck with the anime), but I can't imagine a sudden introduction of a character afterwards unless that character has something to do with Aki and Shiho--or the editors really want to continue the sales and are convincing. Since chapter 15 this has been Aki and Shiho's story so that seems to be endgame. There's no other issues or conflicts besides them and the author doesn't seem to care about in doing some of the typical fluff/slice-of-life stuff. I'm interested in how the Aki/Shiho stuff gets resolved though and how Himari and Yori will use their (currently healthier) relationship to help. Their relationship seems like something that will end in reconciliation as friends (at best), with anything more hinted at in an afterword or jump to the future. But we'll see.

last edited at Mar 19, 2023 8:19AM

Since chapter 15 this has been Aki and Shiho's story

????? No ? It was still Hima and Iori story since their ongoing struggle and Hima's answer to the love song (you know the actual title and premise for those who still care about that part). They take the stage AFTER the confession and Iori and Hima starting going out and even then the general consensus was just Shiho being an ass for unknown reason (even tho it has never been difficult to know why she leave).
It's been a wish that peoples want stories to goes after the simple going out part but they want stories about the main pairing who is going out with fluff and struggle about what it mean to go out, not a nth story about 2 teenages girls who can't communicate with each other even if their lives was depending on it. The problem is that this arc has drag on for so damn long when mostly everyone know the damn reason of her leaving the band.
Will they end up together ? Hell if i care at this point. Will it end after they make up ? Now that would be a damn shame because how little Iori/Hima focus we have and by focus,i mean by not having Shiho being involved in any shape or form.

The length of the Shiho arc is actually a counter-argument to its suitability to the story being told.

The present situation shows that the linking of the “mystery of why Shiho left the group” to the “battle of the bands” (besides making very little logical sense) was a serious structural misstep.

The longer the Shiho-angst thread went on, the more her character’s motivations needed to be developed in order to prevent her from simply being perceived as a random emotional wrecking-ball (although that’s what she mostly has been anyway).

And the more Shiho’s inner life was developed, the more obvious the “resents Iori for stealing Aki’s affection” thing became, which highlighted its total irrationality—Aki never confessed to Iori and Shiho never confessed to Aki. (The pathetically inadequate excuses for Shiho: “That’s how teenagers are! It’s so totally realistic!” were completely undermined by the fact that Aki dealt with her unrequited feelings quite rationally and maturely while the same situation turned Shiho into a cartoon embodiment of inarticulate hostility.)

So in the end, the whole battle of the bands plot trope has been rendered irrelevant and inconsequential—a mere spectacle. Had the whole thing been resolved in a few chapters, it would be easier to overlook the underlying question, “Why should most of these people give enough of a flying f***k about why Shiho left her old band to put anything at all on the line in a battle of the bands?” But as it is, the story simultaneously hyped the band competition as a driver of the events while taking away any reason for it to matter.

last edited at Mar 19, 2023 11:31AM

Upon seeing that panel where Aki said that this whole mess is her fault, I literally did a Darth Vader - "NOOOOOOOOOO" out loud. I suspected it was coming before the chapter, I saw it coming during the chapter, but that panel still hurt.

I don't really care if the author did not want to lay the blame squarely on one character, or place any blame at all. The story HAS Shiho who IS to blame, and the refusal or inability by the story to adress that has gone from annoying to downright painful.

At the end of the day, I guess our analysis and opinions on the subject will depend on how much we can sympathize with Shiho and resonate with at least some of her struggles.
I used to like the series before, but since her appearance it has become something more special. More unique. At first was mainly because she was a disruptive character in a otherwise much more predictable and formulaic story (although I obviously like both Himari and Yori, I didn't want the manga to become just their daily lives as a couple). But then little by little that changed, to the point that I began to be more interested in her and in her story than any other aspect of the series. When I think of the manga, the first thing that comes to mind is her. In my eyes, this series has primarily become Shiho's story, and I don't think that's going to ever change.

in my opinion she is the biggest victim in the story.

In a story that didn’t have any victims at all until she came along and started creating them . . .

All the more reason why is so important to help her and for us readers to root for her happiness. She's is incredible powerful but so are her own insecurities. This doesn't validate her attitude, but she hasn't received the support or guidance to do better. And it's something she's been dealing with since she was very young. The only time she was able to escape from that (mostly imaginary) hell was when she met Aki. She was just so overwhelmed by the sudden realization that her first love was never going to reciprocate her love back, that she felt like the only way to deal with the situation was to leave the band and distance herself from her completely.

Shiho will eventually come to terms with why her actions of her were wrong and show accountability for them. I'm sure of that.

last edited at Mar 19, 2023 11:49AM

Preferences will always differ. There's nothing really objective here. Some might argue that the Shiho events don't fit, others argue differently. My main issue has always been with the consistent tone of surprise about something that's been established for so long at this point. The story has been this way for some time and has continued to do well (pretty much everywhere). The author is doing right by enough people despite how some here feel. Personally, I don't have much issue with Shiho"s character or inclusion (the only thing the author could have done to set expectations and get these discussions out of the way earlier was to include Shiho even nearer to the beginning of the story). Regardless, some of these discussions are treated as though, rather than disagree, you are going against objective fact if you feel differently (as if since the writer doesn't fit a certain preference, they are clearly lesser).

I used to like the series before, but since her appearance it has become something more special. More unique. At first was mainly because she was a disruptive character in a otherwise much more predictable and formulaic story (although I obviously like both Himari and Yori, I didn't want the manga to become just their daily lives as a couple)...

@kabu You're definitely not alone in that, so I wouldn't worry. I wonder what you think the ending of these events between Aki and Shiho will be--also what role you think Himari and especially Yori will have? There's a lot of comments coming through so you might not see this anyway.

last edited at Mar 19, 2023 12:11PM

At the end of the day, I guess our analysis and opinions on the subject will depend on how much we can sympathize with Shiho and resonate with at least some of her struggles.

This is, yet again, the difference between looking at stories as narrative works of art on the one hand, and as the unmediated behavior of imaginary human beings acting in an imagined world on the other.

In the perspective of the second, who cares if the overall structure of a story is fucked beyond repair by a disruptive character, one who is completely out of step with the tone that the story has established? An interesting and "relatable" person has just walked into the room, and it's enjoyable watching them do their thing.

That first set of protagonists can just take a seat and shut up.

Preferences will always differ. There's nothing really objective here. Some might argue that the Shiho events don't fit, others argue differently. My main issue has always been with the consistent tone of surprise about something that's been established for so long at this point. The story has been this way for some time and has continued to do well (pretty much everywhere). The author is doing right by enough people despite how some here feel. Personally, I don't have much issue with Shiho"s character or inclusion (the only thing the author could have done to set expectations and get these discussions out of the way earlier was to include Shiho even nearer to the beginning of the story). Regardless, some of these discussions are treated as though, rather than disagree, you are going against objective fact if you feel differently (as if since the writer doesn't fit a certain preference, they are clearly lesser).

This is not about WHAT the writer did, but HOW. The people saying Shiho does not fit the story are mostly discussing craftsmanship, not personal preferences. And craftsmanship can be objectively assessed and discussed, even in art. The story selling well is sadly not an indicator of quality. I keep reading it because I am entertained by it, in a baffled kind of way. Not because I think it's good. Just for example.

The Dollhouse analogy that @Blastaar made fits very well, because it is purely mechanical. A lot of stuff I read on this thread is about how Shiho does not fit mechanically, and it keeps coming up because it keeps getting worse. I don't think I read a comment on here for months from someone being suprised that Shiho is still in the story. Frustration and disbelief, yes, but not suprise. You get most, if not all of the comments being about Shiho because she is objectively poor craftsmanship, writingwise. She did not fit, she still does not fit, and all efforts by the writer to make her fit thus far have failed, which is what many of the comments are about.

I love seeing how this discussion thread is still more dramatic and toxic than the story it's discussing, despite all the time that's passed by. People here really love/hate shiho huh

People here really love/hate shiho huh.

Yeah, seems so. That and they don't like certain decisions the author made. But what can you do.

This is not about WHAT the writer did, but HOW. The people saying Shiho does not fit the story are mostly discussing craftsmanship, not personal preferences. And craftsmanship can be objectively assessed and discussed, even in art. The story selling well is sadly not an indicator of quality.

I'd really like to avoid an extended discussion about the nature of art. In my profession I do that more than enough already and that'll turn into a much longer thing. I will say that what you're describing is still a preference even if you try to forcefully define it as objective. An author's primary goal is to target, locate and execute in relation it's audience. This author is doing so well enough that discussion about objectivity are largely ambiguous. If they intended to target you, then yes they would have objectively failed. This however is a Japanese manga made for a specific audience whose makeup only the author knows and only that author can definitely say whether they've succeeded at affecting the audience in an intended way. Not everyone agrees with how some others interpret the events or these characters and the author's execution. I imagine most no longer comment since these seem to be negative fairly regularly and that normally creates a vacuum for positivity.

Again my main confusion is at the extended length of these complaints. But really, I guess that's just my own fault. I've just never understood continuing to read or watch something that is not to my flavour. That's why I continue to mention how consistently and thoroughly this manga has made it's direction clear. I'd get it if this were a recent shift but it's been so long now and the comments have become repetitively negative for those who do enjoy what they're reading. But I'm definitely only adding to that negativity so that's the last I'll say on any of it.

last edited at Mar 19, 2023 1:12PM

I love seeing how this discussion thread is still more dramatic and toxic than the story it's discussing, despite all the time that's passed by. People here really love/hate shiho huh

If you think people disagreeing is toxic, I have bad news about the rest of the internet for you, buddy...

People here really love/hate shiho huh.

Yeah, seems so. That and they don't like certain decisions the author made. But what can you do.

This is not about WHAT the writer did, but HOW. The people saying Shiho does not fit the story are mostly discussing craftsmanship, not personal preferences. And craftsmanship can be objectively assessed and discussed, even in art. The story selling well is sadly not an indicator of quality.

I'd really like to avoid an extended discussion about the nature of art. In my profession I do that more than enough already and that'll turn into a much longer thing. I will say that what you're describing is still a preference even if you try to forcefully define it as objective. An author's primary goal is to target, locate and execute in relation it's audience. This author is doing so well enough that discussion about objectivity are largely ambiguous. If they intended to target you, then yes they would have objectively failed. This however is a Japanese manga made for a specific audience whose makeup only the author knows and only that author can definitely say whether they've succeeded at affecting the audience in an intended way. Not everyone agrees with how some others interpret the events or these characters and the author's execution. I imagine most no longer comment since these seem to be negative fairly regularly and that normally creates a vacuum for positivity.

Again my main confusion is at the extended length of these complaints. But really, I guess that's just my own fault. I've just never understood continuing to read or watch something that is not to my flavour. That's why I continue to mention how consistently and thoroughly this manga has made it's direction clear. I'd get it if this were a recent shift but it's been so long now and the comments have become repetitively negative for those who do enjoy what they're reading. But I'm definitely only adding to that negativity so that's the last I'll say on any of it.

What is the difference between forcefully defining something and just... defining something? And how is you defining what an author's primary goal is any less forcefull? Do you agree that Shiho does not fit, but don't care? Or do you disagree and simply lack counterarguments? Saying that if I think a house is on fire is bad, that is just my preference for houses not being on fire is one thing, but at least we agree on the house burning in that case. But okay, no discussion on art itself, fair enough.

Just to help clear things up, I am enjoying reading it. It can be fun to critizise something you deem of poor quality, and that fun only heightens when shared with others. One of my favorite video series on Youtube is a couple of friends watching the CW-Batwoman series and often times howling with laughter about how bad the show is. At the end of the first season, they were genuinely sad about the main actress leaving the show, because she was such a bad actress that it made her really entertaining to watch. I don't brood while I read every new chapter while sticking a Shiho Voodo doll with needles. I am having a good time. And reading and writing comments about what I think does not work is also fun. That is pretty much it.

Perfect.

This is far from the first manga series to discover that it can extend, or even overturn, its initial premises by turning its focus toward an emotional trainwreck of a side character who proves popular with audiences, either because that character's problems are "relatable" or because some segment of the audience likes to watch train wrecks, or both.

And it's even often the case that readers who preferred the first part of the story keep reading it, maybe because they hope the story will right itself, or because they value the ongoing glimpses of the parts that they previously liked, or maybe, like readers who get invested in a story often do, they just want to find out what happens.

I don't blame this author (as a person making a living) for doing what they feel they need to do to keep getting published. But as someone who cares about stories and how they're made, I don't think they're doing an effective job of crafting this one, and I find it interesting to think about what's gone wrong and how it might have been done better.

last edited at Mar 19, 2023 2:27PM

Do you agree that Shiho does not fit, but don't care? Or do you disagree and simply lack counterarguments.

From a literary perspective, the story is better off for having her in it. Certainly not perfect but better. If anything her and Aki should have been more prevalent sooner. I don't identify with many of these complaints, especially from from a writer's perspective. The earlier writing was more lacking and ran itself into a dead end. If anything the earlier portions seemed more by the book and "necessary" to fit in before the author could write what they fully wanted and before they found their footing (which happens when you write novels but working weekly/monthly means some of the evolution happens in real time). As I said, the only thing they could have (and maybe should have) done differently was set expectations clearer by introducing the two earlier. That way the audience would be finer tuned (meaning they would have shed those who disagreed with the vision) but they've had so much success and have created something that's apparently working for many. My adjustments would not necessarily improve the author's impact, so I don't feel all that comfortable saying what they should have done. I don't even know who their intended audience is, for me to say what they should have done confidently.

last edited at Mar 19, 2023 2:27PM

Do you agree that Shiho does not fit, but don't care? Or do you disagree and simply lack counterarguments.

From a literary perspective, the story is better off for having her in it.

The import of the term "literary" is completely baffling in this context. Do you mean, "The story is more exciting with Shiho in it"? "The story is more interesting with Shiho in it"? "The story has more places to go with Shiho in it?" Because I associate the term "literary" with things like "narrative focus," "proportionate structure," and "methodical character development," all elements that are notably lacking in the latter part of this story.

I really do think we're actually all in agreement here: "The story has sidelined its initial protagonists and veered off in an apparently unplanned direction that is at odds with the tone of its setup."

Some people say, "And that's great." Others do not.

A thought.

All of the build up to the battle of the bands was under an assumption that “our team” needed to win in order to help Aki and Shiho work things out.

On the other hand, the author could throw a total curveball and have Shiho still WIN the battle… except only after she essentially lost it. They could even argue that she only “won” (performed as well as she did) because she finally came to terms with how she feels.

This could in turn be used as a launch pad for our main couple again, should the author want to go there.

That’s not quite what I expect and like I mentioned before I think the negativity towards this arc is silly, but it is something that I see as a possibility.

The Dollhouse analogy that @Blastaar made fits very well, because it is purely mechanical.

The problem with that analogy is that it wrongly assumes that Shiho was something the author came up with on the fly, when in fact it was clearly always part of their original plan (as I said before, her first appearance was in the extras of Volume 2). This is the story the author wanted to write from the beginning, and I honestly doubt they "dragged" this arc out for money, as I'm not even so sure Shiho is a very popular character (she's only appeared on one cover so far).

Not only that, but it gives the false impression that the manga has become the exclusive property of Shiho, when the reality is very different. If you reread the series, you will be surprised by the number of chapters where she hardly appears or even does not appear at all.

There's plenty of space in that Dollhouse.

Do you agree that Shiho does not fit, but don't care? Or do you disagree and simply lack counterarguments.

From a literary perspective, the story is better off for having her in it. Certainly not perfect but better. If anything her and Aki should have been more prevalent sooner. I don't identify with many of these complaints, especially from from a writer's perspective. The earlier writing was more lacking and ran itself into a dead end. If anything the earlier portions seemed more by the book and "necessary" to fit in before the author could write what they fully wanted and before they found their footing (which happens when you write novels but working weekly/monthly means some of the evolution happens in real time). As I said, the only thing they could have (and maybe should have) done differently was set expectations clearer by introducing the two earlier. That way the audience would be finer tuned (meaning they would have shed those who disagreed with the vision) but they've had so much success and have created something that's apparently working for many. My adjustments would not necessarily improve the author's impact, so I don't feel all that comfortable saying what they should have done. I don't even know who their intended audience is, for me to say what they should have done confidently.

I actually agree with you that a theoretical Shiho would have made the story better, as a testing ground for Yoru, Himari and their relationship. Just for my better understanding, could you elaborate on when you wrote "The earlier writing was more lacking and ran itself into a dead end. If anything the earlier portions seemed more by the book and "necessary" to fit in". Because that seems like an objective claim to me, not a preference. I assume your perspective is not "I dislike fluff and prefer drama, and I don't care about how it is provided", so I would appreciate a clarifictation, thanks.

The Dollhouse analogy that @Blastaar made fits very well, because it is purely mechanical.

The problem with that analogy is that it wrongly assumes that Shiho was something the author came up with on the fly, when in fact it was clearly always part of their original plan (as I said before, her first appearance was in the extras of Volume 2). This is the story the author wanted to write from the beginning, and I honestly doubt they "dragged" this arc out for money, as I'm not even so sure Shiho is a very popular character (she's only appeared on one cover so far).

Not only that, but it gives the false impression that the manga has become the exclusive property of Shiho, when the reality is very different. If you reread the series, you will be surprised by the number of chapters where she hardly appears or even does not appear at all.

There's plenty of space in that Dollhouse.

When Shiho was conceived, or with which intent, is irrelevant. The Dollhouse analogy is meant to visualize the clash of Shiho with the established story and characters, and the result thereof. When the doll that does not fit was made, or even planned, does not matter. Even if the author wanted the end result that was achieved, that would not change the fact that we now have a doll too big for the house or other dolls.

Even if Shiho does not appear in person, the main thrust of the story revolves around her for a while now. Which would not be even my main complaint, the main thing that grinds my gears is that she has way to many faults that the story itself never acknowledges, and therefore seems oblivious to. That was not a problem in the story before, so the doll sticks out that way as well.

last edited at Mar 19, 2023 3:03PM

On the other hand, the author could throw a total curveball and have Shiho still WIN the battle… except only after she essentially lost it. They could even argue that she only “won” (performed as well as she did) because she finally came to terms with how she feels. This could in turn be used as a launch pad for our main couple again, should the author want to go there. That’s not quite what I expect and like I mentioned before I think the negativity towards this arc is silly, but it is something that I see as a possibility.

Yes, certainly possible. Good insight. There's not really anything restricting this part of the narrative besides audience considerations ("am I ok with pissing some of them off, or do I want to play it safe?). If the author wants to they have a lot of room to take this different places. Guess we'll see because there's not a lot setup to happen after the event.

Because that seems like an objective claim to me, not a preference.

The point is it's all preference. Few rules in writing that aren't preference at their core. Few rules in general that aren't separated from the audience for which you're writing. But you might disagree with that also--which is fine.

I assume your perspective is not "I dislike fluff and prefer drama, and I don't care about how it is provided."

No I don't bias to "drama," and the way that word is used recently sometimes feels odd to me. I love a lot of "fluff." Honestly, my perspective on the normal discourse (here, at least) is the opposite, which is why I personally observe more complaints about writing quality when fluff is gone. I don't think the writing quality has changed, just the subject and therefore the scrutiny. The earlier portions of the manga were by-the-book, very similar to what's been done and could be done by most Mangaka. This was so much so that the little depth there resolved itself in barely any chapters. This isn't to say that this new stuff is necessarily groundbreaking, btw. The Mangaka could have rested into the typical chapter-by-chapter fluff but they decided to attempt something else (and this shift was initiated very early on and might have been pre-planned). The situation with Shiho and Aki has more inherent depth and direction (you might disagree). There are goals, there. The Mangaka certainly doesn't hit it out of the park (to me) but the story is better for it. Having said that, again, it apparently hits it out of the park for many and the story wasn't written for me, I'm sure. The way Shiho and Aki is written might very well be what's most effective for the target audience's enjoyment and interest (it might be that the original pairing was so vanilla that the core audience doesn't have much issue with their backseat these past few volumes--I like them but who knows). I don't know that audience and I don't know this author's intent. Should they target a different audience their writing decisions might change entirely.

last edited at Mar 19, 2023 3:56PM

This is far from the first manga series to discover that it can extend, or even overturn, its initial premises by turning its focus toward an emotional trainwreck of a side character who proves popular with audiences, either because that character's problems are "relatable" or because some segment of the audience likes to watch train wrecks, or both.

And it's even often the case that readers who preferred the first part of the story keep reading it, maybe because they hope the story will right itself, or because they value the ongoing glimpses of the parts that they previously liked, or maybe, like readers who get invested in a story often do, they just want to find out what happens.

Your reply is definitely the one that has resonated with me. I feel sold to more than anything. Whisper You a Love song is no longer a story that the author wants to tell, but a story that the author thinks the readers want, and since they can't satisfy everyone, they are bound to leave people behind.

At a certain point, the writing feels immature. It's like the author learned that conflict, unrequited feelings, and emotional turmoil in a story can make it popular, so they're min maxing all those by shoving them into the story and dragging them out, because obviously drama sells no matter the quality of the writing, right?

This manga feels like those youtube content farms, where a company broke the algorithm and found a way to produce the cheapest, most brain-dead, lifeless content on the app, but still manage to rake in hundreds of millions of views, because the majority of people consuming media just want to be entertained, and don't care about quality. And while that means giving up your integrity as an artist, at the end of the day, selling to the majority always means more money.

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if, after this Shiho drama is wrung dry, one of the characters inexplicably die, and then it turns into a gritty mystery drama for another 20 chapters or something.

last edited at Mar 19, 2023 4:03PM