Tricking someone pretending you're the gender you're not is uncool at best and downright nasty at worst. In a romantic fantasy where a happy end is the iron-set goal, the fooled one, after the reveal, will always decide they don't care about gender anymore because love is more important. But in any minimally realistic setting this treachery will hurt the victim horribly and bring only heartbreak and bitterness.

Tricking someone pretending you're the gender you're not is uncool at best and downright nasty at worst. In a romantic fantasy where a happy end is the iron-set goal, the fooled one, after the reveal, will always decide they don't care about gender anymore because love is more important. But in any minimally realistic setting this treachery will hurt the victim horribly and bring only heartbreak and bitterness.

You're right, and it depends on how long it goes on. To be fair on rocker girl, it wasn't on purpose and she hasn't been doing it long enough for it to count as "nasty". I think if they went on a date and she didn't reveal it, then we could talk about the moral ramifications. Right now it's just a misunderstanding.

Tricking someone pretending you're the gender you're not is uncool at best and downright nasty at worst. In a romantic fantasy where a happy end is the iron-set goal, the fooled one, after the reveal, will always decide they don't care about gender anymore because love is more important. But in any minimally realistic setting this treachery will hurt the victim horribly and bring only heartbreak and bitterness.

Yeah... That's why I hope to see the alt girl feel guilty about keeping her gender a secret, like a decent person would. And I am certain she WILL.
I mean, I get why this misunderstanding will go on for some time... The girl mistaken for a boy has no friends and will finally be talking about music with someone, she thinks that if she reveals who she really is to her classmate she won't get to keep a friend because her true self is boring, and in her head she will do her best to stay in the "just friends" territory because, after all, they are both girls (cliche line from "straight" characters in yuri) so nothing can really happen (LOL). Probably her thoughts will be like "I know she has a crush on the record store "guy", but I just want to talk to her as friends. If she tries to make a move on the "guy" she is interested in, I can just reject her, right??" and then once she realizes that she has feelings for the gyaru, she'll be faced with the aftermath of keeping it hidden that she's a girl (AND HER CLASSMATE) knowing d*mn well that as long as no rejection happened or the misunderstanding was cleared, the other girl would keep up with the ROMANTIC advances.
It's a mixture of misunderstanding and shyness/anxiousness. Not a flaw in character. She doesn't mean to sound flirty but ends up doing so. Idk how the author will develop the moral implications, but I think it's already pretty clear that Mitsuki is not doing this to take advantage on the other girl, she just honestly doesn't know how to clear up the misunderstanding.

(A lot of people mention handsome girl and sheltered girl but I never read it so I have no references on this trope whatsoever)

And, honestly, I don't think it will ever be explicitly said but Mistuki acting on impulse and lending Aya the album on ch04 after she saw Aya's expression when saying she couldn't talk about music with her friends was her identifying with the other girl. Like, something in her subconscious said "I get exactly what that is, on a deep level. She is just like me". She was not trying to trick the girl into thinking her male crush made a move on her, she was just doing what she thought would be the right thing to do, as someone who has no friends and knows the feeling of not being understood (even tho she has her cool af rocker uncle, having friends your age with similar interests will always beat this).

Well, anyways, welcome for coming to my TED Talk.

You're right, and it depends on how long it goes on. To be fair on rocker girl, it wasn't on purpose and she hasn't been doing it long enough for it to count as "nasty". I think if they went on a date and she didn't reveal it, then we could talk about the moral ramifications. Right now it's just a misunderstanding.

Also that.

last edited at May 22, 2022 9:07PM

Well said, wlftchtr82!

I feel like we will get answers in the next couple chapters. It's just painful to wait for four pages every week at this point, so I hope this changes in the near future.

Tricking someone pretending you're the gender you're not is uncool at best and downright nasty at worst. In a romantic fantasy where a happy end is the iron-set goal, the fooled one, after the reveal, will always decide they don't care about gender anymore because love is more important. But in any minimally realistic setting this treachery will hurt the victim horribly and bring only heartbreak and bitterness.

Yyyyyyyyeah this is an implicitly transphobic take. I doubt you intended it that way, but the transphobia is inherent to the argument, as becomes clear very quickly if you apply it to a closeted trans person (or look at the way transphobia frames trans people's genders as being "deceptive" in general). Please take a moment to reconsider it.

Yes, romance plotlines based on deception are dodgy, but messing around with your gender presentation is not deception or "tricking someone" or "treachery" (!), full stop. Even if you're cis. People do not actually have an inherent right to know your gender. Even if someone asks you point-blank what gender you are, you are under no obligation to give them an honest answer, that shit is private if you want it to be. Framing that as deception leads to attitudes that put trans people in real-world danger ("trans panic defense", etc.).

If someone falls in love with somebody assuming that they're one gender and then it turns out that they're not that gender and that's a dealbreaker and they get their heart broken, then that sucks for everyone involved, but at no point was anyone "tricked".

Tricking someone pretending you're the gender you're not is uncool at best and downright nasty at worst. In a romantic fantasy where a happy end is the iron-set goal, the fooled one, after the reveal, will always decide they don't care about gender anymore because love is more important. But in any minimally realistic setting this treachery will hurt the victim horribly and bring only heartbreak and bitterness.

Who cares go pick up a football

Side question: Is there a Discord for this page or site for further discussion?

Side question: Is there a Discord for this page or site for further discussion?

I'd like to know too. If there was a Discord we could probably have a Dream Widow listening party.

There are probably some people on reddit talking abt it. But in Yuri related subreddits, not something specific for this story. so pretty much what we do here on this forum

last edited at May 22, 2022 11:42PM

That would be awesome, @wlftchtr82. Keep us in the loop if you hear about a Discord being created. This forum design, while convenient, is outdated and burdensome to navigate, especially if you want to read through old responses.

That would be awesome, @wlftchtr82. Keep us in the loop if you hear about a Discord being created. This forum design, while convenient, is outdated and burdensome to navigate, especially if you want to read through old responses.

Say no more. I just created a discord for this manga https://discord.gg/cQW8hrmsk6
Let's have a Foo Fighters listening party!

(It's 1AM here. I created this on impulse, so pls join, y'all)

@ Wiwaxia Their take wasnt transphonic at ALL. They were NOT saying she was fooling gyaru-chan by dressing the way she does or looking fairly masculine- that has zero baring.

The issue they were raising is AFTER gyaur makes this mistake- (to nobodies fault) - she should then have let her know she isnt a boy like she thinks. I also agree that its not gone on long enough yet to matter. They have barely interacted since then- but she does need to explain it soon.

You also cant compare it to a closet trans- because she is NOT. She has no particular reason to hide her gender at all beyond a bit of embaressment about being seen as lame or something.

@ Wiwaxia Their take wasnt transphonic at ALL. They were NOT saying she was fooling gyaru-chan by dressing the way she does or looking fairly masculine- that has zero baring.

The issue they were raising is AFTER gyaur makes this mistake- (to nobodies fault) - she should then have let her know she isnt a boy like she thinks. I also agree that its not gone on long enough yet to matter. They have barely interacted since then- but she does need to explain it soon.

You also cant compare it to a closet trans- because she is NOT. She has no particular reason to hide her gender at all beyond a bit of embaressment about being seen as lame or something.

No, "you need to explain your real gender to someone who made a mistaken assumption and if you don't it's deception" is still a transphobic take.

The issue is the narrative about "gender deception", which is fundamentally transphobic whether or not any given fictional or real person has a "reason" to hide their gender. (As if fear of homophobia wouldn't be reason enough! Even in this scenario where the mc isn't trans, the stakes are still potentially much higher than "being seen as lame". Come on.)

Thank you for creating the Discord, @wlftchtr82 ! Please join y'all if you want!

@ Wiwaxia Their take wasnt transphonic at ALL. They were NOT saying she was fooling gyaru-chan by dressing the way she does or looking fairly masculine- that has zero baring.

The issue they were raising is AFTER gyaur makes this mistake- (to nobodies fault) - she should then have let her know she isnt a boy like she thinks. I also agree that its not gone on long enough yet to matter. They have barely interacted since then- but she does need to explain it soon.

You also cant compare it to a closet trans- because she is NOT. She has no particular reason to hide her gender at all beyond a bit of embaressment about being seen as lame or something.

No, "you need to explain your real gender to someone who made a mistaken assumption and if you don't it's deception" is still a transphobic take.

The issue is the narrative about "gender deception", which is fundamentally transphobic whether or not any given fictional or real person has a "reason" to hide their gender. (As if fear of homophobia wouldn't be reason enough! Even in this scenario where the mc isn't trans, the stakes are still potentially much higher than "being seen as lame". Come on.)

Could you elaborate on how it's "fundamentally" transphobic? I can understand how it could very easily slip into that sort of territory, but there does seem to be a distinction between lying about your sex/gender and not providing info that you're not obliged to provide, such as what genitals you have.

@ Wiwaxia Their take wasnt transphonic at ALL. They were NOT saying she was fooling gyaru-chan by dressing the way she does or looking fairly masculine- that has zero baring.

The issue they were raising is AFTER gyaur makes this mistake- (to nobodies fault) - she should then have let her know she isnt a boy like she thinks. I also agree that its not gone on long enough yet to matter. They have barely interacted since then- but she does need to explain it soon.

You also cant compare it to a closet trans- because she is NOT. She has no particular reason to hide her gender at all beyond a bit of embaressment about being seen as lame or something.

No, "you need to explain your real gender to someone who made a mistaken assumption and if you don't it's deception" is still a transphobic take.

The issue is the narrative about "gender deception", which is fundamentally transphobic whether or not any given fictional or real person has a "reason" to hide their gender. (As if fear of homophobia wouldn't be reason enough! Even in this scenario where the mc isn't trans, the stakes are still potentially much higher than "being seen as lame". Come on.)

Could you elaborate on how it's "fundamentally" transphobic? I can understand how it could very easily slip into that sort of territory, but there does seem to be a distinction between lying about your sex/gender and not providing info that you're not obliged to provide, such as what genitals you have.

I think it'll be easier to understand with some analogies.
"How could you not tell me you were a girl?"
"How could you not tell me you were black?"
"How could you not tell me you were Chinese?"
"How could you not tell me you were Muslim?"
Etc.

There is a presumption here that keeping that information from other people is a form of deception. And the corresponding implication that to keep that from someone is a form of violence, which would then necessitate a violent response. The answer is that it's no one's business.

Of course, you could argue that there are certain things that you should reveal in a relationship. If you have religious differences on how you should raise your kids, then the topic of your respective views on faith definitely needs to be above board. And yes, when physical intimacy comes into play then discussions of how you go about that should also be above board.

But that doesn't hold true for 99% of interactions. Your coworkers, your customers, your classmates, and any other strangers in your life have no right to know that information about you. Acting like this is a deception when they aren't dating is to presume ownership of that aspect of another person's privacy. Just as it would be xenophobic to demand to know where someone was born before interacting with them, and racist to demand to know the color of their skin, it would be sexist/transphobic to demand the same for their gender.

At least, this is my best guess from what @Wiwaxia was saying. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Tricking someone pretending you're the gender you're not is uncool at best and downright nasty at worst. In a romantic fantasy where a happy end is the iron-set goal, the fooled one, after the reveal, will always decide they don't care about gender anymore because love is more important. But in any minimally realistic setting this treachery will hurt the victim horribly and bring only heartbreak and bitterness.

Yyyyyyyyeah this is an implicitly transphobic take. I doubt you intended it that way, but the transphobia is inherent to the argument, as becomes clear very quickly if you apply it to a closeted trans person (or look at the way transphobia frames trans people's genders as being "deceptive" in general). Please take a moment to reconsider it.

Yes, romance plotlines based on deception are dodgy, but messing around with your gender presentation is not deception or "tricking someone" or "treachery" (!), full stop. Even if you're cis. People do not actually have an inherent right to know your gender. Even if someone asks you point-blank what gender you are, you are under no obligation to give them an honest answer, that shit is private if you want it to be. Framing that as deception leads to attitudes that put trans people in real-world danger ("trans panic defense", etc.).

If someone falls in love with somebody assuming that they're one gender and then it turns out that they're not that gender and that's a dealbreaker and they get their heart broken, then that sucks for everyone involved, but at no point was anyone "tricked".

thank you, well put!

e: though i will say that to the extent that gender is in large part to do with how you present yourself outwardly, the much more transphobic thing is to accuse someone of hiding or being deceptive about their biological sex through their gender expression.

last edited at May 23, 2022 1:58AM

Could you elaborate on how it's "fundamentally" transphobic? I can understand how it could very easily slip into that sort of territory, but there does seem to be a distinction between lying about your sex/gender and not providing info that you're not obliged to provide, such as what genitals you have.

I think it'll be easier to understand with some analogies.
"How could you not tell me you were a girl?"
"How could you not tell me you were black?"
"How could you not tell me you were Chinese?"
"How could you not tell me you were Muslim?"
Etc.

There is a presumption here that keeping that information from other people is a form of deception. And the corresponding implication that to keep that from someone is a form of violence, which would then necessitate a violent response. The answer is that it's no one's business.

Of course, you could argue that there are certain things that you should reveal in a relationship. If you have religious differences on how you should raise your kids, then the topic of your respective views on faith definitely needs to be above board. And yes, when physical intimacy comes into play then discussions of how you go about that should also be above board.

But that doesn't hold true for 99% of interactions. Your coworkers, your customers, your classmates, and any other strangers in your life have no right to know that information about you. Acting like this is a deception when they aren't dating is to presume ownership of that aspect of another person's privacy. Just as it would be xenophobic to demand to know where someone was born before interacting with them, and racist to demand to know the color of their skin, it would be sexist/transphobic to demand the same for their gender.

At least, this is my best guess from what @Wiwaxia was saying. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I was talking more about Wixaxia's original response, not the response that I quoted. In hindsight that was quite confusing. I do actually agree that the person Wiwaxia was responding to in that quote was making a bad take. Mitsuki isn't under any obligation to explain anything to a near total stranger, I have no idea how anyone could think otherwise.

My issue is that the original person who brought up this topic only mentioned "tricking someone" and "pretending you're the gender you're not". I think that whether this is transphobic or not depends on what the OP considers to be trickery and pretending. That's why I drew a distinction between lying and not providing info. In the former, you're intentionally misleading someone, and in the latter, you're merely existing in a manner that someone didn't expect.

Arguably, the OP should have specified what they meant in order to be sensitive to this issue, but as someone with autism, I consider getting too far into being super clear and specific to be a bottomless pit that will still lead to being misunderstood. The stress of avoiding being misunderstood can lead to paralysis, so it can be better to just speak and clarify later.

Could you elaborate on how it's "fundamentally" transphobic? I can understand how it could very easily slip into that sort of territory, but there does seem to be a distinction between lying about your sex/gender and not providing info that you're not obliged to provide, such as what genitals you have.

Sure. The biggest narrative of transphobia is the idea that somebody's own gender, or how they talk about or express their gender, is somehow a violation of the people around them. This is used to justify controlling people's gender and gender expression, or punishing them for falling outside of accepted gender norms. This idea of gender nonconformity being a violation of how you should treat the people around you is often (although not exclusively) framed in terms of deception - i.e. a violation of trust and/or ability to give informed consent. This puts trans people in a double-bind: if you are out about being trans, you are accused of deceiving people by being a different gender than the one they think you "should" have, whereas if you're closeted, you are accused of deceiving people by not telling them your real gender. Either way, the accusation of "tricking people about what gender you 'really' are" functions to, again, justify control and/or punishment while obscuring the actual power dynamic. Someone point-blank lying about their gender does not give them power over another person in the same way that accusing someone of lying about their gender does. In the most extreme form, the person being subjected to gendered control and punishment is portrayed as the perpetrator, while the person actually enacting this transphobic abuse portrays themselves as the victim.

With that said, let's look at the narrative that is getting pulled out in the comments section here - the implication that Mitsuki is somehow doing wrong by Aya by letting Aya continue to believe she's a boy, and thus that she "needs" to tell Aya her real gender or else she is victimizing her. To quote:

Tricking someone pretending you're the gender you're not is uncool at best and downright nasty at worst. [...] But in any minimally realistic setting this treachery will hurt the victim horribly and bring only heartbreak and bitterness.

That's a) an accusation of gender deception while b) portraying the hypothetical person confused by gender ambiguity as a "victim", used to c) try to control how people present/talk about their genders (i.e. if you are androgynous you have to tell people your gender explicitly if they get the wrong idea). Again, don't know if it's intended as such, but that's the structure of the argument.

elevown brings up the fact that Mitsuki is not, in the story, trans, and says basically that hiding your gender is okay if you're trans and closeted but not okay otherwise. However, that just kicks the can down the road to the question of who is "really" trans. Someone trying to figure out if you're trans enough to be "allowed" to hide your gender is itself violating, and anyone who is judged to not be trans enough will be subject to aforementioned control and punishment of their gender expression anyway. (And while I'm primarily concerned for trans people, who are the most vulnerable to this kind of rhetoric, cis people deserve to not be controlled or punished for how they express/talk about their genders either.) Nobody gets to be appointed judge and jury of who has enough of a "reason" to hide their gender. The only principled position is to entirely reject the idea that letting someone have the wrong idea about your gender is somehow doing wrong by them. If they do have the wrong idea about your gender, that's a them problem unless and until you choose to correct them, it doesn't imply that you need to change how you present or what you do or do not say about your gender.

That's the fundamental level but also, on a practical level, no, there is not a distinction between lying about your sex/gender and simply not providing info that you're not obligated to provide. Cis society does not let you get away with just not providing info. It is basically impossible to successfully remain closeted (or stealth) without sometimes saying something directly untrue about your sex/gender - avoiding the question will itself make people clock you as some degree of gender-nonconforming, and will often get framed as attempted deceit anyways.

edit. My contention is basically that it's transphobic regardless of what OP considers to be "tricking someone" and "pretending you're the gender you're not", because of the way it plays into this real-world dynamic of accusing someone of being deceptive about their gender to control how they express or talk about it.

last edited at May 23, 2022 4:06AM

The conversation above aside,
I wonder how Mitsuki will break it to Aya that she's not a boy and how Aya will react.
But seeing Mitsuki's fear of being out casted, it'll take a while for her to clear up the misunderstanding I guess. Or maybe a random surge of courage will become her drive to suddenly blurt out the misunderstanding..

Ahhh, or maybe the few next chapters are them but in school? I mean, Aya found some "similarities" between school Mitsuki and Working Mitsuki, would she play the smart girl and figure it out on her own? Or would Mitsuki let go of her fears and tell her first??
Aahhh! Or maybe they meet up, Mitsuki's intention to clear up the misunderstanding and Aya's intention to ask "the question", then they happen to talk at the same time and the awkward "ah, you go first-" "No it's fine, you go" troupe comes in and they both laugh dispelling the tense atmosphere between them.

Argh but this could also go into the angsty route where Mitsuki suffers from not clearing the misunderstanding as they keep growing closer, then something happens that makes Mitsuki confess she's a girl and after that Aya gets heartbroken from having had her first love be "illusion" all along. Then they slowly drift apart but one day crosses paths once more in school. Then another story pops out of this encounter.

Or maybe I'm thinking too much ¯_(ツ)_/¯

That's the fundamental level but also, on a practical level, no, there is not a distinction between lying about your sex/gender and simply not providing info that you're not obligated to provide. Cis society does not let you get away with just not providing info. It is basically impossible to successfully remain closeted (or stealth) without sometimes saying something directly untrue about your sex/gender - avoiding the question will itself make people clock you as some degree of gender-nonconforming, and will often get framed as attempted deceit anyways.

First of all, thank you for the explanation. I appreciate the detail and clarity.

Reading your post, it bacame clear to me that I was looking at this discussion as being general, rather than about Mitsuki, specifically, and that I was thinking about it from a queer perspective rather than a heteronormative one.
Frankly, I think most straight people would have their minds blown by the existance of stone butch trans women.
"Whaaaaat?" they'd say, "Isn't that the same as just being a man?"

In regards to Mitsuki, the suggestion that Mitsuki is engaging in any form of deception is perfectly in line with your explanation, so I find myself moved to agreeing with your position.

As for the issue of having a queer/heteronormative perspective, I do still think that a similar, generalised statement coming from a queer person could be up in the air. Honestly, far too many people within the community are shitty to bisexuals, treating them as traitors for being straight passing, so being transphobic is far from out of the question. That said, since the queer community is more open to gender nonconformity, I think that similar statement could be approached with some measure of charity.

Frankly, I think most straight people would have their minds blown by the existance of stone butch trans women.

to be fair i'm trans and also gay and this still kinda blew my mind at first

e: also, in terms of queer perspectives, well, it may be true that overall there is less transphobia in the lgbtq+ community than in the general population, there are absolutely pockets of intense transphobia there, especially in for example (where i'm from) the uk

last edited at May 23, 2022 6:09AM

Frankly, I think most straight people would have their minds blown by the existance of stone butch trans women.

to be fair i'm trans and also gay and this still kinda blew my mind at first

e: also, in terms of queer perspectives, well, it may be true that overall there is less transphobia in the lgbtq+ community than in the general population, there are absolutely pockets of intense transphobia there, especially in for example (where i'm from) the uk

Oof! Terf Island.

Yeah, when you're used to "normal", the full width, breadth, and depth of human possibility can be a bit overwhelming. As soon as you diverge from the paper thin margins of straightness, you're queer, but there are plenty of heterosexual queer people, there're cis queer people, everything.

You'd think we'd understand that, to heteronormativity, we're all defective. The how may vary, but none of us fit into hegemonic "Straightness". Some of us are pick mes, but some of us are just humans being all too human.

For what it's worth, things can't not get better in the long term. Time's on our side because we couldn't go away if we wanted to. We can't surrender, but bigots can. We were here first and we'll be here last.

The conversation above aside,
I wonder how Mitsuki will break it to Aya that she's not a boy and how Aya will react.
But seeing Mitsuki's fear of being out casted, it'll take a while for her to clear up the misunderstanding I guess. Or maybe a random surge of courage will become her drive to suddenly blurt out the misunderstanding..

Ahhh, or maybe the few next chapters are them but in school? I mean, Aya found some "similarities" between school Mitsuki and Working Mitsuki, would she play the smart girl and figure it out on her own? Or would Mitsuki let go of her fears and tell her first??
Aahhh! Or maybe they meet up, Mitsuki's intention to clear up the misunderstanding and Aya's intention to ask "the question", then they happen to talk at the same time and the awkward "ah, you go first-" "No it's fine, you go" troupe comes in and they both laugh dispelling the tense atmosphere between them.

Argh but this could also go into the angsty route where Mitsuki suffers from not clearing the misunderstanding as they keep growing closer, then something happens that makes Mitsuki confess she's a girl and after that Aya gets heartbroken from having had her first love be "illusion" all along. Then they slowly drift apart but one day crosses paths once more in school. Then another story pops out of this encounter.

Or maybe I'm thinking too much ¯_(ツ)_/¯

I honestly hope that Aya starts suspecting on her own, without Mitsuki saying a thing. I mean, she kinda brought it on herself for thinking it’s a dude when perhaps the voice could give it away. Her side of the story will be about finding out that gender doesn’t matter to her (she fell for an androgynous looking person and personality other than exclusively because she thought it was a guy), if we consider that this manga will go full yuri.

I just want her to start suspecting that this nerdy girl next to her holds some pretty strong similarities to her crush (mole, a bunch of holes in her ear that mean she wears piercings, a suspicious band covering her arm — an accidental tattoo reveal would be fun).

Anyways, there are SO MANY WAYS this story could unfold and I honestly am agonizing over the fact we only get 4 pages per week lol

I find this whole "is it deception" discussion particularly silly considering the two have barely talked with each other since the confusion started. Even if you take for a fact one should always reveal personal information about themselves to those you are casually flirting with (a problematic assumption as other posters already explained), what is situation here? A teenager was dishonest? Is that really that big of a deal? Even if you consider what Mitsuki is doing to be a Bad Thing(tm), so what? It relatively innocuous considering the scale of their relationship so far. They aren't even dating, they are barely friends. If one lie to a stranger that might be "bad", but as long as the lie is not damaging most people will frankly not care, and that is the situation of the story as of right now.

I find this whole "is it deception" discussion particularly silly considering the two have barely talked with each other since the confusion started. Even if you take for a fact one should always reveal personal information about themselves to those you are casually flirting with (a problematic assumption as other posters already explained), what is situation here? A teenager was dishonest? Is that really that big of a deal? Even if you consider what Mitsuki is doing to be a Bad Thing(tm), so what? It relatively innocuous considering the scale of their relationship so far. They aren't even dating, they are barely friends. If one lie to a stranger that might be "bad", but as long as the lie is not damaging most people will frankly not care, and that is the situation of the story as of right now.

Thank you. Couldn't have said it any better. I hope this finishes the discussion.