I know Rio is irresistible to Dynasty readers as [The Other, More Overtly Lesbian One], but in terms of the overall story she's just a dropped plot stitch. The real problem with this as a series is its failure to directly deal with the main relationship issue it raises.

That is, the story does a decent job (I take it) of depicting the different individual orientations of the MCs toward romance and sex, but then it doesn't show how the two of them ultimately resolve their central difference--that is, neither of them are interested in a sexual relationship, but Matoi is interested in romance while Yuriko is not. As several people have pointed out, that leaves Yuriko getting what she wants out of the relationship, but with Matoi wanting more than she can ever get. That's a perfectly viable story conflict, and Matoi could be shown to come to terms with the situation in any number of ways, but the issue deserves more than to just be glossed over.

And then the "two apartments" ending leaves the Unfortunate Implication that they've decided not to live together because sharing the physical space would be an undue emotional burden on Matoi because of her one-way feelings. (Sure, some people just "want their own space"--even at Tokyo real estate prices--but the key scenes in the MCs emotional development took place in the shared space of Matoi's apartment. So no more such scenes for them!)

tl;dr: Matoi seems happy enough at the end--but why?

last edited at May 2, 2022 12:40PM

I mean, Rio was also a potential source of some kind of conflict, kind of like Yuriko's scars, but equally fading out of relevance before much exciting happens. Which is why I came to my descriptor of "bread sandwich." Plain, boring, you could say it gets the job done but it'll probably leave you wanting when you're finished.

I mean, Rio was also a potential source of some kind of conflict, kind of like Yuriko's scars, but equally fading out of relevance before much exciting happens. Which is why I came to my descriptor of "bread sandwich." Plain, boring, you could say it gets the job done but it'll probably leave you wanting when you're finished.

You're quite right. The story is certainly a kind of breakthrough for aro-ace representation, but at various points it seemed to have something more than simply that on its mind, but it was never entirely clear what it was.

Glad I didn’t read this based on comments and the last chapter. Yes, there are such relationships IRL, but it doesn’t have the literary payoff for readership (they’re not even ROOMMATES! God what a let down). Good luck getting this picked up for publishing stateside.

This manga deserves the “non-binary” tag as the relationship went no-where by choice.

That's...not what non-binary means?

Am I missing a joke here?

What kind of ending is this ^^ frankly I want there to be a romantic friendship but this is a lazy and illogical ending. It looks like a repressed love and therefore a future big regret.Nothing positive to pretend to be close friends, knowing that if one meets love the other will take it badly, in short disappointment. Another author who does not have the courage to assume his story, and joins the list of manga with great potential but spoiled by a botched end.

So I see a lot of people debating whether this should be tagged yuri, and I understand the wish to be inclusive to ace folks. They also deserve representation and don't get much of it and I'm old enough that my bisexual ass remembers how much that can hurt.

That said, there are a bunch of series on this website that forewent the yuri tag because the primary couple never crosses the line from friendship to actual romance, even though there are strong romantic overtones. Often the characters are even clearly life-partners who fully intend to spend forever together, but if they don't kiss or at least declare their love and do some lewd lewd handholding, it's not "yuri"

Should Stretch have a yuri tag? It's a "relationship between girls." Should Nettaigyo wa Yuki ni Kogareru? New Game? Shinmai Shimai no Futari Gohan? Ayakashiko? Living with my Brother's Wife? None of those are tagged "Yuri" (even though in some cases there are explicitly gay characters) because their main narrative is not about explicitly romantic relationships between women. A lot of series on this site sit untagged as "Yuri" until you get a direct confession or explicit indication of romantic interest, but here is a series about a specifically non-romantic relationship that had the tag I think from the start.

I want to be clear, I'm not saying this shouldn't be tagged yuri, nor am I saying those things shouldn't be. But there's an inconsistency here, and It's worth asking what the tag is for, and how Yuri is defined. And if you're gonna define Yuri more broadly than the site tends to, that's okay, but then there are probably a lot of things that should be conciously handled differently WRT other series.

Tags serve two main functions, in my experience. They help people find what they're looking for, and they help people avoid what they aren't. Yuri is such a broad tag and such a huge part of the site's identity I strongly doubt anybody is using it to know what to avoid. So then the question becomes "Is this series what people searching the Yuri tag are looking for?"

Romance is the same way. If somebody searches the "Romance" tag, are they going to be satisfied or feel baited by this series about two asexual people in an aromantic relationship? Yeah, sure, there are -other- romantically inclined characters in the series. Are -any- of their romances central enough to the narrative to be featured as tags? Star Wars has romances in it, that doesn't mean it would deserve the tag.

I'm not saying the story is bad. I thought it was an interesting read and insight into the ace/aro experience. The ending falls a bit flat, but I recognize that might be because I'm not the target audience. But as someone who comes to this site for same-sex romance, the tags sure are aimed at convincing me that this is directed at me when it isn't.

Either way, there should be an ace tag, like, yesterday. I'm actually shocked it isn't already a thing.

I'm not very invested in the issue of tags generally except as a fairly abstract taxonomic exercise. But there's arguably a distinction to be made between boundary cases like several that Heavensrun ^ mentions, where a series seemed unwilling to take the final plunge into overt yuri territory because of a self-imposed authorial restriction or an editorial intervention, and those instances where the story sets out to develop aro-ace characters, as this one explicitly does, (but which very few others that I can think of actually do).

I know that characters are routinely claimed as being examples of aro-ace representation, some of which turn out to be anything but that (most notoriously Yuu in Yagakimi), and lacking explicit in-text labeling like in this story I don't know exactly how one would definitively distinguish between the two types. But I would foresee not doing so leading to a lot of tagging wars.

I know that characters are routinely claimed as being examples of aro-ace representation, some of which turn out to be anything but that (most notoriously Yuu in Yagakimi), and lacking explicit in-text labeling like in this story I don't know exactly how one would definitively distinguish between the two types. But I would foresee not doing so leading to a lot of tagging wars.

I've never really seen Yuu as aro-ace rep but rather as a really great example of demi rep, even if not intended as such. At least she resonates very much with me and my own deminess~

What would Matoi, as a romantic asexual, want that Yuriko isn't giving her?

I've never really seen Yuu as aro-ace rep but rather as a really great example of demi rep

Early in the series, Touko and especially Yuu were both plausible aro/ace candidates. This changed as the series progressed. Maki(?), the guy cheering Yuu on, still seems ace though.

What would Matoi, as a romantic asexual, want that Yuriko isn't giving her?

A reciprocal romantic relationship?

Or is the definition of romantic asexual not "does not desire sex but does desire romantic relationships"?

I guess I'm asking what an asexual romantic relationship looks like.

I guess I'm asking what an asexual romantic relationship looks like.

Romantic feelings without a sexual element to them, we desire close companionships that you don't get from just a friend.

I think Pieta kind of hits close to what I'd consider an asexual romantic relationship.

I guess I'm asking what an asexual romantic relationship looks like.

The details would probably vary from person to person, I'd think.

I still don't get why this is tagged Yuri. Like this feels different than subtext, where at least there's the plausible case of 'well I could imagine a romantic relationship developing, it just didn't for a variety of reasons'. In this manga, there's instead an explicit denial of a romantic or sexual relationship. I just fail to understand why this series gets tagged yuri when there's an explicit denial of a romantic or sexual relationship. If something like this, which is ultimately about deep platonic relationships, is going to be tagged yuri, it either needs to be specifically with regards subtextual plausible deniability (which again, Matoi wants to date, but Yuriko isn't interested in it) or now yuri might as well be tagged on every work on the site that features close female friends >_>

It's such a bummer too, finally another there was another newer series tagged age gap that was between adult characters and well, it's this.

For the record, I don't think aro/ace people need to be """fixed""", but this just feels like Matoi's committed to a relationship that won't give her what she wants and it feels kind of unhealthy and one sided. Like either I expected something where Matoi and Yuriko remain close, deep platonic friends but Matoi gets in a romantic relationship herself or Yuriko discovers she's enjoys romantic relationship. Maybe the latter counts as getting "fixed" but I see no reason why self discovery in a series about a two character's relationship that results in like, them getting closer is like egregious (especially when again, it's tagged yuri on this site). Problematic maybe, depending on how it's depicted, but it'd feel like that's kind of the point, especially when I know plenty of lesbians who considered themselves ace until they realized they could love other women and all.

last edited at May 3, 2022 1:39AM

I know that characters are routinely claimed as being examples of aro-ace representation, some of which turn out to be anything but that (most notoriously Yuu in Yagakimi), and lacking explicit in-text labeling like in this story I don't know exactly how one would definitively distinguish between the two types. But I would foresee not doing so leading to a lot of tagging wars.

I've never really seen Yuu as aro-ace rep but rather as a really great example of demi rep, even if not intended as such. At least she resonates very much with me and my own deminess~

That's the point Blastaar is making, she isn't aro-ace, but a lot of people thought she was at first, before her feelings awakened. (Yagakimi does have ace rep in Miki, though)

I guess I'm asking what an asexual romantic relationship looks like.

Romantic feelings without a sexual element to them, we desire close companionships that you don't get from just a friend.

I think Pieta kind of hits close to what I'd consider an asexual romantic relationship.

I once asked a friend if he had to separate the romantic and sexual elements of his relationship, what would go where? And surprisingly he put things like cuddling, hugs and handholdings in the romantic part, tbh i didnt even expected him to mention them to begin with... tho the reason he gave was "its something i wanna do with her all the time but its not exciting enough to make me wanna do it just from it alone hahahaha..." the answer was longer than that but i think this was the only part that matters

So maybe there is that...

last edited at May 3, 2022 2:20AM

I guess I'm asking what an asexual romantic relationship looks like.

Romantic feelings without a sexual element to them, we desire close companionships that you don't get from just a friend.

I think Pieta kind of hits close to what I'd consider an asexual romantic relationship.

I once asked a friend if he had to separate the romantic and sexual elements of his relationship, what would go where? And surprisingly he put things like cuddling, hugs and handholdings in the romantic part, tbh i didnt even expected him to mention them to begin with... tho the reason he gave was "its something i wanna do with her all the time but its not exciting enough to make me wanna do it just from it alone hahahaha..." the answer was longer than that but i think this was the only part that matters

So maybe there is that...

I'd agree with him, I've never thought of those elements as related to sexual attraction.

You can even do sexual activities without sexual attraction.

last edited at May 3, 2022 4:29PM

The fuck kind of ending is that. Is this really what Ace people are like...??

Also I agree, yuri tag should be deleted. No yuri in this.

last edited at May 3, 2022 1:22PM

Im personally fine with the yuri tag, it's the romance tag that feels kind of out of place for me.

last edited at May 3, 2022 6:38PM

Aside from the fact that the manga does have yuri elements, the Yuri tag is fine for the main plot. Matoi, has far as I can tell is Asexual and Lesbian. Yuriko is Aromantic and Asexual.
Many might feel like this is just a friendship relationship. Matoi herself doesn't have the urge to be intimate with Yuriko and just wants to love her. Yuriko as well doesn't want intimacy but she also doesn't have romantic feelings. Both of them are fine with being next to each other since they find each others company more special that with regular friends.
So in the end, Yuriko doesn't "Love" Matoi but it works out since Matoi doesn't mind that their relationship is only as friends, since both of them hold each other special and are by each others side.
As an AroAce person, I prefer to not have initimacy or romantic relationships with anyone. But I also feel that if I meet someone like Matoi who has a wonderful character and talent to create music in her original way I would like to be by their side and support them.
I get that many won't understand the lack of intimacy in a relationship, but imagine it something like just sitting in the same room and reading a book or watching TV and you look at the other person and are just glad that person is there, there is no urge to hug them or to kiss them but glad that they are just there.

People who are saying, “This series doesn’t meet my definition of ‘yuri,’” well, whatever—feel free to put forth that definition and make your argument.

People who are saying, “This doesn’t deserve the Yuri tag” are simply mistaken about what that tag means on Dynasty, where it means that, at minimum, the tagged story contains a character who is in love with, or who desires a lesbian relationship with, a female-identified character in the story.

Obviously, Rio is that character in this story, when in chapter 9 she asks Matoi, “Why don’t we start dating instead?”, and then kisses her. Many people have argued that, in addition, the main plot contains enough yuri elements to deserve the tag in itself. That may or may not be so, but such a reading is not necessary for Dynasty tagging purposes.

Moreover, the author’s note at the end says unequivocally that they intend this to be a type of yuri story. Readers are certainly welcome to disagree with the author, but the authorial statement further reinforces the appropriateness of the yuri tag for this series.

I thought yuriko and the guy ended up tgt omg haven't felt that sense of dread in a while

Rio was completely forgotten and not even mentioned in this future, i feel bad for her.

This is the only part I dislike

Glad I didn’t read this based on comments and the last chapter. Yes, there are such relationships IRL, but it doesn’t have the literary payoff for readership (they’re not even ROOMMATES! God what a let down). Good luck getting this picked up for publishing stateside.

This manga deserves the “non-binary” tag as the relationship went no-where by choice.

Please don't use terms if you don't know what they mean. Non-binary has absolutely NOTHING to do with this manga or anything you said.

Re: tags. Rio is into Matoi that way. By Dynasty’s standards that alone makes it yuri, full stop.

I don't think that applies here, since Rio is only a side character. Of course it would add to the argument that this still stands as a yuri work (as would the appearance of the lesbian couple), even if there is no conventional romance between the main leads, but it wouldn't define it as such. (The same way having a female side character crushing on the main female lead of a het romance wouldn't make that work yuri).

If that's the case, then WTF are there so many posts about Rio? It seems like, to the readers, many of whom don't understand the concept of the relationship between Yuriko and Matoi and think Matoi should have gotten together with Rio, someone she NEVER expressed any romantic interest in, Rio was one of the main characters...

And it doesn't matter anyway, because Matoi makes a romantic confession to Yuriko, who gives that confession due consideration before answering her and also telling Matoi that she loves her, but not in a romantic way, but she still wants to stay by her side if she'll have her.

The problem with the ending is that Matoi is, subconsciously, unsatisfied with the non-physical/non-romantic relationship. She starts of the story thinking she may not have those kinds of feelings but it seems that they just hadn't bloomed until she met Yuriko. Six years is a long time holding back on what she wants, she may not have a strong drive for a physical(sexual)/romantic relationship but it is evident that she wants one.
There's more to their emotional states to be explored than to just randomly time skip SIX YEARS and have them living as neighbors, this needed another two or at least one more volume in order satisfy the audience with a resolved and fleshed-out ending. This was a good series but needed just a bit more development to make it better.

There is nothing in the entire story that gives any indication that Matoi is anything but asexual. The author outright states that the character is asexual in the author's note at the end. It's also clear, based on the final chapter, that MATOI is the one who is the most reserved about the current state of their relationship among EVERYONE involved. Matoi's mother treats Yuriko like a daughter-in-law, thanking her for always looking out for her and promising to send food soon, etc... Matoi makes a comment about Yuriko not being obliged to go to her sister's wedding and Yuriko practically takes offense at it, telling her that she thought she counted as family.

A little disappointed that they live next door to each other. What the heck??? Isn't rent kind of expensive in Tokyo? This story was supposed to be about the characters maturing, yet they're not mature enough to prioritize practicality over comfortable distance? SMH.

and

That felt a bit abrupt, but I'm mostly happy to see a manga representing acespec in such a wholesome, understanding way. While it does feel weird they don't live in the same apartment together (that's just wasteful monetarily imo), I'm glad they stuck to their queer-platonic relationship.

The only thing that really leaves a sour taste in my mouth is where we left Rio. I had personally kind of hoped for an acespec QP/Poly sort of... thingy? for the three of them

etc...

I guess nobody read my earlier post right after this chapter landed... There is another potential reason for the two of them not sharing an apartment in Tokyo: prejudice. In other manga, it has been mentioned that it can be difficult for two adult women to rent together because landlords don't like to rent to groups of single adult women. Single women, fine. College-age groups of women, fine. But multiple adult, working women they have problems with. It might stem from the assumption that young women of a certain age will be getting married soon and, when there are several of them sharing rent and one gets married and moves out, the ones left behind are more likely to not be able to cover the rent and have to be evicted. I'm not saying this is CORRECT or a good way to do business, but it is something I have seen in other stories.

If you factor in the fact that people might make assumptions about their relationship if they were living together, it could very well be Matoi who doesn't want to share an apartment. They also might be not sharing an apartment so there is less of a chance of Yurko being seen naked in passing by Matoi, which Matoi understands is upsetting to her because of her scars. If one thing was patently clear in this story, it was that Matoi is hyper-aware of things that might be troubling to Yuriko and tries to avoid them. In a way, that behavior delayed Yuriko from telling Matoi about her feelings about wanting to stay by Matoi's side because the first time she tried Matoi cut her off and told her that she understood that she would never fall in love with her and that was fine. Yuriko MIGHT have been about to tell Matoi that she thought she might be falling in love at that point because she did have feelings of some sort, but on further reflection, she realized that Matoi was right and her feelings weren't romantic but were still, in a sense, a type of love.

As for the thing with Rio not getting "resolution"... who was this story about after all? But seriously... I really can't understand why so many people WANT Matoi to get together with someone she has not expressed any interest in romantically and who would be just as "unsatisfied" in a relationship with Matoi as people seem to think Matoi SHOULD be in a relationship with Yuriko, because Matoi would not want to have sex or even kiss, while Rio was portrayed as being pan/biromantic and demisexual (though I thought she fell for Matoi awfully fast for that... Maybe they had been at school for a few months already and we only saw snippets?) I mean, why not the guy who confessed to Matoi at the beginning of the manga getting together with her, if you're just looking for someone who has a one-sided love for her? His feelings are pretty much equal to Rio's, except for the small fact that Rio fell for Matoi AFTER she had feelings for someone else and backed off... somewhat... gracefully. (She only pushed her feelings on her a few times after saying she understood and got those jealous eyes when she finally met Yuriko.) What if Rio was a guy? Would that have made a difference? Would people still be saying that a male Rio was "done dirty" and things like that? That's the kind of entitled speech that you hear from people who say they were "friend-zoned" by girls who were never interested in them in the first place but think that their feelings somehow magically give them the right to have a relationship with them. Sorry, but Rio didn't HAVE a love interest in the story. She had feelings for one of the protagonists that were not returned. Six years down the road would be at least four years after their graduation from trade school, so it wouldn't be surprising that they lost touch. They weren't in the same field, after all.

My biggest apprehension is if this counts as yuri, then I have no clue when yuri starts and stops, and as a gay woman who wants to read stories about gay women being in love, or at the very least implied to be in love, then the usage of yuri, with this stories idea of it, to find that becomes useless.

Like they literally end the story with them as friends (Matoi even confused why Yuriko would go all the way to the countryside to her sister's wedding when They're Just Friends) and living next to each other, not even together (Not that living together would mean much more, rather it just feels logical if I care about someone, given pooled income and all). Nettaigyo wa Yuki ni Kogareru feels more like two girls in love than that and the author directly said it's not yuri, despite there's way more yearning and desire going on than Lilies Voice Wear Wind (And similarly, one of those LVWW is tagged yuri, but Nettaigyo wa Yuki ni Kogareru is just tagged subtext).

I feel like yuri crush is way more appropriate than the tags of age gap, romance, or yuri itself.

last edited at May 5, 2022 1:53AM