Sayaka didn't lash out of jealousy, she lashed out of fear to both being outed by Matsuri and watching her precious Miyabi being "soiled" by Matsuri.

last edited at Mar 21, 2020 6:24PM

Also, Mei continues to be my favorite character. She's grown so much and is trying to face a problem together with Yuzu for the first time since the election arc. I can't wait to see how she deals with Sayaka.

Yea seeing her give such a nice response saying that they will solve the issue together was pretty moving.

How exciting—Mei and Yuzu are determined to move bravely forward together, putting them in the same position they were in, (checks notes) 37 chapters ago.

If the train keeps moving at this rate, I may need to sit down.

You really can't let us have nice things, can you? I get it, you don't like Mei. You can at least refrain from mocking those who do like her.

Also, when Mei said that to Yuzu the first time, she wasn't being honest. Because she knew, or rather believed, at some point she would have to leave Yuzu to marry her fiancé and live up to her responsibilities. Now that she's found a new path, her declaration to work together with Yuzu is truthful this time.

Even if you don't see it that way, let me see it that way. Let me have my own opinion without passive-aggressively telling me I'm dumb.

You’re taking this ludicrously personally—it’s not that I “don’t like Mei,” because Mei doesn’t actually exist. What I’m mocking is not you (go ahead and thrill to any supposed development to your heart’s content) but Saburouta’s ridiculously inconsistent writing and glacial pacing.

Far from disliking her, I’ve always thought Mei was the only truly interesting character in the series (Yuzu is likable, but hardly interesting). What I’ve disliked is the botch job the author has made of her characterization, with Mei’s behavior at any given point based on the needs of a rather wandering and unfocused plot rather than on a plausible simulation of an actual human being.

Readers have worked far harder at rationalizing Mei’s actions and attitudes than the author ever did.

You're right, I did take that way too personally. I assumed you were deliberately calling me out because you quoted my post, and I got caught up in the moment. I'm sorry.

Maybe I'm just overlooking something, but I've read Citrus many times and every time dug as deep as I could into Mei's character, and try as I might, I can't find any of these "inconsistencies" you talk about. If anything, I love her character more and more upon each read and I've concluded her to be one of the deepest and most complex characters in any Yuri manga. But hey, that's just me.

Your criticisms about the pacing are entirely valid, but honestly don't bother me one bit. I don't mind a slow build-up, even if it's the slowest burn ever made, as long as there's a rewarding payoff. Who knows? Maybe once that payoff is delivered it will be unsatisfactory and my opinion on the story will do a complete 180.

But until that day comes, I say to each their own.

I can't find any of these "inconsistencies" you talk about. If anything, I love her character more and more upon each read and I've concluded her to be one of the deepest and most complex characters in any Yuri manga

lolwut

Because abusers have reasons for their actions, so let's try to understand them, help and fix them while suffering and while they don't even want the help.

That's literally Yuzu's life. She's a doormat.

I can't find any of these "inconsistencies" you talk about. If anything, I love her character more and more upon each read and I've concluded her to be one of the deepest and most complex characters in any Yuri manga

lolwut

This one was personal

I can't find any of these "inconsistencies" you talk about. If anything, I love her character more and more upon each read and I've concluded her to be one of the deepest and most complex characters in any Yuri manga

lolwut

This one was personal

Does me liking Mei offend you somehow? How dare I enjoy something?

I can't find any of these "inconsistencies" you talk about. If anything, I love her character more and more upon each read and I've concluded her to be one of the deepest and most complex characters in any Yuri manga

lolwut

This one was personal

Does me liking Mei offend you somehow? How dare I enjoy something?

You keep doing this—the issue is not your enjoyment, but the reading of the characterization of Mei.

Readers have developed long, elaborate rationalizations for how the confident, forceful class president of the early part of the series became the tongue-tied, trembling cipher of the later chapters, with complex explanations for her erratic behavior, especially towards Yuzu.

The problem is that most of those explanations are reader headcanon, consisting of possible, sometimes plausible, psychological interpretations but based on almost nothing contained in the pages of the text themselves.

last edited at Mar 22, 2020 7:33AM

There is no universal truth when reading a fictional story. There might be some general consensus from the majority, but others are able to interpret and insert their own biases into a character. Because it's a character and not a real person, so there is no objective truth or real motives.

Also, pretty sure that the author thinks Mei is a very deep character as well.

There is no universal truth when reading a fictional story. There might be some general consensus from the majority, but others are able to interpret and insert their own biases into a character. Because it's a character and not a real person, so there is no objective truth or real motives.

There’s some truth to that, but there’s also the bedrock principle that readings of fiction need to be grounded in specific evidence from the text.

There’s also the principle that hypotheses about interpretive questions can have internal as well as external answers. For instance, there’s the question, “Why did the issue of an arranged marriage for Mei suddenly come up apparently out of nowhere when it seemed to have been taken off the table with the collapse of the engagement to McRapey-sensei?”

Readers have parsed Grandpa’s initial statement about Mei living her own life as being provisional, and they’ve had various explanations for Mei’s failure to bring up the subject of a future marriage being her responsibility to the family during the entire time between then and the big reveal, and they’ve explained Mei’s erratic attitude toward physical intimacy with Yuzu in several different ways. But very few of those theories can be supported by concrete evidence from the text.

The simpler answer, and one that can inferred from the wandering plot of the middle chapters of the series, is that the author was rather desperate for a big final plot arc and returned to an old trope—that the events depicted in the story are not a function of a character’s well-planned, deeply nuanced psychology, but of an author’s haphazard plotting of a series that had been slipping out of control.

The fact that the series went to great lengths to set up a whole array of unanswered questions and apparently insurmountable barriers to Mei and Yuzu ever being together then hand-waved them all away in a single page of silent panels (after spending many pages of action-comedy hijinks just getting Yuzu to the house where Mei was staying) makes the external answer—sloppy writing—much more likely than any theory about psychological depth and nuance.

I personally agree that the writing is bad. But it also seems that the author thinks and wants Mei to be this deep girl, but was/is unable to actually materialize it in a successful way.

On the other hand, when a character is silent and broken, a lot of people automatically connect that with being deep. Imo Mei is just a low eq person with some underlying issues. But maybe some people see this as being deep, which I can see why, and from that point on, I think what is right and wrong for Mei's character comes down to personal biases and tastes because she's just a fictional character. If she was a real person it would be different.
Someone can ignore or not see/care about all these inconsistencies and still like this manga and its characters.

Feels like Sayaka will be the next Mei of the series, but she seems worse. Also I don't think we will ever get an intimate scene between Mei and Yuzu. Maybe the author is holding that back on purpose.

last edited at Mar 22, 2020 9:38AM

Man, am I the only one who thought Mei was going to say "There's no way I will sit this one out after seeing a bruise on my girlfriend's head after being punched by a kouhai, whose from student council nonetheless." Man if she ever says that I would have gone straight to my yuri heaven. =w=

last edited at Mar 22, 2020 10:26AM

ScarletBlood posted:

Man, am I the only one who thought Mei was going to say "There's no way I will sit this one out after seeing a bruise on my girlfriend's head after being punched by a kouhai, whose from student council nonetheless." Man if she ever says that I would have gone straight to my yuri heaven. =w=

Actually if Mei punches or slap that girl back and say "now we're even" I would love Mei unconditionally hahahhaha

The main difference between this and original is that there’s significantly less development in the sexual/physical department.

Citrus+ seems to be more emotionally motivated, or at the very least it’s trying to be.

But like original Citrus this suffers from slow pacing. I hope + won’t suffer from overused tropes, which became repetitive, like it’s predecessor.

And I don’t want to blame editors and publishing houses but they do put significant pressure on authors in regards to their work so just blaming Saburouta about all the problems with previous Citrus might be unfair.

There is no universal truth when reading a fictional story. There might be some general consensus from the majority, but others are able to interpret and insert their own biases into a character. Because it's a character and not a real person, so there is no objective truth or real motives.

There’s some truth to that, but there’s also the bedrock principle that readings of fiction need to be grounded in specific evidence from the text.

There’s also the principle that hypotheses about interpretive questions can have internal as well as external answers. For instance, there’s the question, “Why did the issue of an arranged marriage for Mei suddenly come up apparently out of nowhere when it seemed to have been taken off the table with the collapse of the engagement to McRapey-sensei?”

Readers have parsed Grandpa’s initial statement about Mei living her own life as being provisional, and they’ve had various explanations for Mei’s failure to bring up the subject of a future marriage being her responsibility to the family during the entire time between then and the big reveal, and they’ve explained Mei’s erratic attitude toward physical intimacy with Yuzu in several different ways. But very few of those theories can be supported by concrete evidence from the text.

The simpler answer, and one that can inferred from the wandering plot of the middle chapters of the series, is that the author was rather desperate for a big final plot arc and returned to an old trope—that the events depicted in the story are not a function of a character’s well-planned, deeply nuanced psychology, but of an author’s haphazard plotting of a series that had been slipping out of control.

The fact that the series went to great lengths to set up a whole array of unanswered questions and apparently insurmountable barriers to Mei and Yuzu ever being together then hand-waved them all away in a single page of silent panels (after spending many pages of action-comedy hijinks just getting Yuzu to the house where Mei was staying) makes the external answer—sloppy writing—much more likely than any theory about psychological depth and nuance.

I also agree that the last arc was poorly written. It's a major flaw in the overall story, but name one long-running series in history that didn't have a major dip in storytelling at some point. I also believe that Citrus+ has been doing a great job of making up for all the problems that Volume 10 caused. If the last arc was a big poorly-written reset button, then Citrus+ is working hard to be the best darn reset it can possibly be, and to great effect In my opinion.

You say my rationalization of Mei's behavior comes from "theories" and not actual evidence from the text. Well, where do you think I get the basis for those theories? From reading Citrus several times and finding evidence to back up my supposedly incorrect interpretation of Saburouta's bad writing.

However, what it all comes down to is my personal enjoyment. I know I keep repeating that, but I like enjoying things even if they're flawed. Does me, in your words, rationalizing inconsistent character behavior and sloppy writing mean I get to enjoy something I like? Then I will gladly continue to be wrong ¯_(ツ)_/¯

but name one long-running series in history that didn't have a major dip in storytelling at some point.

3 examples come immediately to mind: Bloom Into You, Girl in the Birdcage, Her Shim Cheong.

i want to see mei go apeshit and scalp a bitch

but name one long-running series in history that didn't have a major dip in storytelling at some point.

3 examples come immediately to mind: Bloom Into You, Girl in the Birdcage, Her Shim Cheong.

Haven't read Girl in the Birdcage, but you're at least right so far about Her Shim Cheong. Though I'd say we can only be sure when the translations catch up.

I'll probably come under fire for this, but I'd argue that Bloom Into You's last volume, or at least after Yuu confessed to Touko, was a dip in storytelling. Not that it was bad, but that it was boring and absolute nothingness.

I'll probably come under fire for this, but I'd argue that Bloom Into You's last volume, or at least after Yuu confessed to Touko, was a dip in storytelling. Not that it was bad, but that it was boring and absolute nothingness.

If you listen extremely closely, you can hear the sound of all the blood in my body boiling.

last edited at Mar 22, 2020 3:59PM

but name one long-running series in history that didn't have a major dip in storytelling at some point.

3 examples come immediately to mind: Bloom Into You, Girl in the Birdcage, Her Shim Cheong.

Haven't read Girl in the Birdcage, but you're at least right so far about Her Shim Cheong. Though I'd say we can only be sure when the translations catch up.

I'll probably come under fire for this, but I'd argue that Bloom Into You's last volume, or at least after Yuu confessed to Touko, was a dip in storytelling. Not that it was bad, but that it was boring and absolute nothingness.

AHHHHH ok I wanted to say for "Her Shim Cheong" I had to switch from English translations to Korean when they stopped translating the manhwa. I got an app and bought the chapters. And I AM MORE THAN CAPABLE OF TRANSLATING THE CHAPTERS AND CAN EVEN USE PHOTOSHOP AND ILLUSTRATOR TO PUT THE TRANSLATIONS IN.

Except I don't know where to upload it or how to share it. Are either of you interested in reading the rest of the manhwa?

last edited at Mar 22, 2020 4:00PM

I'll probably come under fire for this, but I'd argue that Bloom Into You's last volume, or at least after Yuu confessed to Touko, was a dip in storytelling. Not that it was bad, but that it was boring and absolute nothingness.

If you listen extremely closely, you can hear the sound of all the blood in my body boiling.

Well that's me when people shit talk Mei, so welcome to my world.

welcome to my world.

bad imitation of Geralt of Livia's voice: Hmmm................. Fuck.

but name one long-running series in history that didn't have a major dip in storytelling at some point.

3 examples come immediately to mind: Bloom Into You, Girl in the Birdcage, Her Shim Cheong.

Haven't read Girl in the Birdcage, but you're at least right so far about Her Shim Cheong. Though I'd say we can only be sure when the translations catch up.

I'll probably come under fire for this, but I'd argue that Bloom Into You's last volume, or at least after Yuu confessed to Touko, was a dip in storytelling. Not that it was bad, but that it was boring and absolute nothingness.

AHHHHH ok I wanted to say for "Her Shim Cheong" I had to switch from English translations to Korean when they stopped translating the manhwa. I got an app and bought the chapters. And I AM MORE THAN CAPABLE OF TRANSLATING THE CHAPTERS AND CAN EVEN USE PHOTOSHOP AND ILLUSTRATOR TO PUT THE TRANSLATIONS IN.

Except I don't know where to upload it or how to share it. Are either of you interested in reading the rest of the manhwa?

I'm definitely more than interested, but I think it can't be uploaded here because it was licensed. Something like wdtfs. Only pirate sites like mangadex etc upload it. But since the translators stopped because of the license situation, these sites don't have anywhere to get the english version from. The official English chapters are really slow too.

last edited at Mar 22, 2020 5:35PM

I also agree that the last arc was poorly written. It's a major flaw in the overall story, but name one long-running series in history that didn't have a major dip in storytelling at some point. I also believe that Citrus+ has been doing a great job of making up for all the problems that Volume 10 caused. If the last arc was a big poorly-written reset button, then Citrus+ is working hard to be the best darn reset it can possibly be, and to great effect In my opinion.

There was no reason the author even needed a second series to make up for the enormous plot gaps in the first one except her own ineptitude and time-wasting in the main series (like that interminable fireworks festival, the big payoff for which was???).

This was an immensely popular series, and I've never heard that Saburouta was pressured to end it quickly or to make it anything other than she wanted it to be. Saburouta's pretty good at creating individiual scenes (especially comic ones) at times, but has demonstrated herself to be quite hopeless at long-term plotting and very erratic with characterization.

And the major flaw in the characterization is that the author clearly had no idea what to do with Mei and Yuzu's relationship from the point where the two of them agreed to move forward together (Chapter 24, if I recall correctly). So we immediately launched into the amusing but completely irrelevant Shirapon business, and then a bunch of wandering around with various characters, and also a bunch of artificial reasons for Yuzu and Mei to not communicate with one another (like Yuzu's part-time job) even though they sleep together in the same bed. Meanwhile, Mei gets more and more withdrawn until she's practically catatonic, then is taken entirely offstage until the final moments of the series.

After the initial chapters had set the stage and until that preposterous final "arranged-marriage" arc, the only dynamic between Mei and Yuzu that the author seemed to be capable of conceiving was Mei fending off Yuzu, Yuzu apologizing to Mei for various things, and Mei coming out with some outburst of affection/desire that was then immediately tamped down again.

I'll say it again: Mei was always my favorite character, not as an imaginary human being I could project myself onto, but as a source of narrative and thematic possibilities for developing the premises of the story that the series had set out in its opening chapters. My criticism of the character has nothing to do with liking or disliking that imaginary human being; it's about seeing a potentially interesting fictional construct very poorly served by its creator.

last edited at Mar 22, 2020 9:21PM

I also agree that the last arc was poorly written. It's a major flaw in the overall story, but name one long-running series in history that didn't have a major dip in storytelling at some point. I also believe that Citrus+ has been doing a great job of making up for all the problems that Volume 10 caused. If the last arc was a big poorly-written reset button, then Citrus+ is working hard to be the best darn reset it can possibly be, and to great effect In my opinion.

There was no reason the author even needed a second series to make up for the enormous plot gaps in the first one except her own ineptitude and time-wasting in the main series (like that interminable fireworks festival, the big payoff for which was???).

This was an immensely popular series, and I've never heard that Saburouta was pressured to end it quickly or to make it anything other than she wanted it to be. Saburouta's pretty good at creating individiual scenes (especially comic ones) at times, but has demonstrated herself to be quite hopeless at long-term plotting and very erratic with characterization.

And the major flaw in the characterization is that the author clearly had no idea what to do with Mei and Yuzu's relationship from the point where the two of them agreed to move forward together (Chapter 24, if I recall correctly). So we immediately launched into the amusing but completely irrelevant Shirapon business, and then a bunch of wandering around with various characters, and also a bunch of artificial reasons for Yuzu and Mei to not communicate with one another (like Yuzu's part-time job) even though they sleep together in the same bed. Meanwhile, Mei gets more and more withdrawn until she's practically catatonic, then is taken entirely offstage until the final moments of the series.

After the initial chapters had set the stage and until that preposterous final "arranged-marriage" arc, the only dynamic between Mei and Yuzu that the author seemed to be capable of conceiving was Mei fending off Yuzu, Yuzu apologizing to Mei for various things, and Mei coming out with some outburst of affection/desire that was then immediately tamped down again.

I'll say it again: Mei was always my favorite character, not as an imaginary human being I could project myself onto, but as a source of narrative and thematic possibilities for developing the premises of the story that the series had set out in its opening chapters. My criticism of the character has nothing to do with liking or disliking that imaginary human being; it's about seeing a potentially interesting fictional construct very poorly served by its creator.

Look, you don't have to go this far to explain why you don't like Citrus anymore. I've seen almost every comment you've written in this thread and I know your opinion on the series through and through. I think you bring up some good points, and like I said, I agree with you that Volume 10 was a misfire.

But most of what you say about Saburouta and her writing abilities I do not agree with. Everything she threw at Yuzu and Mei was meant to test and challenge their bond and love in some way. Contrived? At times, yes. Compelling? In my opinion, also yes.

You think Citrus+ doesn't have a reason to exist? Fine. Maybe you're right. It doesn't change the fact that the series so far has given me more beautiful moments between one of my favorite yuri couples, and evolved Mei into my favorite character after Volume 10 nearly ruined that. I'll continue to read, enjoy and defend this series, and you're free to continue pointing out its flaws. I'm not gonna endlessly argue with you when I know neither of us will change how we view the series.

That's all I gotta say. Truce?

That's all I gotta say. Truce?

Sure. Sorry to waste your time.