johnb posted:

johnb posted:

I think the manga should have been ecchi, for the gag to work. It's like someone took PG-13 jokes and cleaned them up for PG readers.

What do you mean by being ecchi?

You know a bit sexual without crossing the line into NSFW territory.

I can see what you mean, but I don't think that's the only way to go about it. As you said jokes feel to PG, but you could fix it by making jokes themselves more sexual instead. The funniest ecchi comedy I've ever seen was Seitokai Yakuindomo, which bases its entire humor solely on dirty jokes and have no fanservice etc. whatsoever.

Fair enough.

Ecchi means literally the letter H, which is short for Hentai, which means "deviant behavior". Nowadays, it just means "sex", as in "ecchi suru" -> having sex. Mostly, it means "naughty".

The "light eroticism" thing is a western usage.

Ecchi means literally the letter H, which is short for Hentai, which means "deviant behavior". Nowadays, it just means "sex", as in "ecchi suru" -> having sex. Mostly, it means "naughty".

The "light eroticism" thing is a western usage.

So?

Nya-chan posted:

Ecchi means literally the letter H, which is short for Hentai, which means "deviant behavior". Nowadays, it just means "sex", as in "ecchi suru" -> having sex. Mostly, it means "naughty".

The "light eroticism" thing is a western usage.

And it's completely irrelevant, since we live in west, so for the most part, we are forced to use it using western definition. Sure, we make fun of shoujo ai, but there's way more terms we are completely misusing compare to their actual meaning in Japanese and they pretty much became separate words in English, so for better or worse, it's just easier to stick to it than actually try to expect people to start using them correctly. I mean, how much success we had with shoujo ai so far?

Nene posted:

Kind of like how many American fans use "shoujo ai" for soft yuri... when, in Japan, it more or less means het porn with adult men doing little girls.

Actually it strictly means "pedophilia" and only tells you gender of children they're attracted to, not the gender of actual pedophile.

last edited at Sep 24, 2019 3:22PM

What

Sure, we make fun of shoujo ai, but there's way more terms we are completely misusing compare to their actual meaning in Japanese and they pretty much became separate words in English, so for better or worse, it's just easier to stick to it than actually try to except people to start using them correctly. I mean, how much success we had with shoujo ai so far?

But we are still in a transitory phase where all these terms get slowly solidified. If we don't start using them correctly now we really will have this pointless disconnect. If it can be prevented there is absolutely not reason aside from laziness and convenience to solidifying a mistake. Something like hentai in the first place is a word that has no specific context but that what is being discussed is "perverse" in some way, but not necessarily in a sexual way. But it can also be used in a sexual way and is mostly used that way in Japan as well, so there is no problem letting it be generalized like that.

Shoujo Ai on the other hand is plain wrong and has averse effects on the understanding of the cultures. We can't allow it to be continously misused that way. The fight to inform people of what it means should not stop. I personally convinced plenty of people not to use it anymore. It's not a lost battle at all.

I think "shoujo/shounen ai" are in a different boat than benign classification differences like ecchi or hentai because conflating pedophilia with queerness is actually a problem whereas having slightly different classifications of media from the original language is not. I don't think differing from Japanese cultural standards is a problem that needs to be combated it's just a reality of language and culture barriers and the only reason to get bent out of shape over it is pedantry.

I think "shoujo/shounen ai" are in a different boat than benign classification differences like ecchi or hentai because conflating pedophilia with queerness is actually a problem whereas having slightly different classifications of media from the original language is not. I don't think differing from Japanese cultural standards is a problem that needs to be combated it's just a reality of language and culture barriers and the only reason to get bent out of shape over it is pedantry.

Not exactly what I was getting at with the wrench in the understanding between cultures. If a Western fan declares s/he loves Shoujo Ai, that will just make that person look like a degenerate to a Japanese person. It is insensitive to Japanese culture where these things come from and sullies them for no good reason.
Don't call a riceball a donut just because your culture isn't familiar with riceballs etc.

Blame the Yaoi fandom for even introducing the term Shounen Ai and consequently creating the dumb lesbian counterpart that actually never existed.

BugDevil posted:

Sure, we make fun of shoujo ai, but there's way more terms we are completely misusing compare to their actual meaning in Japanese and they pretty much became separate words in English, so for better or worse, it's just easier to stick to it than actually try to except people to start using them correctly. I mean, how much success we had with shoujo ai so far?

But we are still in a transitory phase where all these terms get slowly solidified.

Em, no. They are solidified for years. And people actually did bring up the issue before. The biggest sites like MAL or pretty much all other manga readers simply refused to change the way they use those terms, which is what perpetuates their use between old and new fans. Majority of people either don't know they're misused or don't care, so there's no incentive to fight a lost battle. At best you can choose to use them correctly on your site, like Dynasty does for the most part.

The issue with shoujo ai is that actually this terms was specifically made up by publishers as a analogical term to shounen ai (which did exist as a genre in Japan, but that's longer story). The point is, it's not anime/manga fans misusing it. It's publishers creating it specifically to market a entire genre of stories. Try unsolidifying that. I guess there's some hope, since some publishers did start to prefer use of term yuri, even for SFW stuff, like Seven Seas from what I remember. Still for the most part, those terms are so deeply ingrained in anime/manga culture, you can't really teach people to use them correctly at this point.

Em, no. They are solidified for years. And people actually did bring up the issue before. The biggest sites like MAL or pretty much all other manga readers simply refused to change the way they use those terms, which is what perpetuates their use between old and new fans. Majority of people either don't know they're misused or don't care, so there's no incentive to fight a lost battle. At best you can choose to use them correctly on your site, like Dynasty does for the most part.

The manga/anime community has been growing for years as well and will still do so. The old core audience is small compared to the gains, therefore terms can still be changed. Considering how easy it was for me to convince several people already, I don't see how it could be any trouble at all for everyone to do it. You can only fight a mistaken belief by continuing to insist on the truth. Let those idiots on MAL be stubborn, their reputation is horrible anyway.

The issue with shoujo ai is that actually this terms was specifically made up by publishers as a analogical term to shounen ai (which did exist as a genre in Japan, but that's longer story). The point is, it's not anime/manga fans misusing it. It's publishers creating it specifically to market a entire genre of stories. Try unsolidifying that. I guess there's some hope, since some publishers did start to prefer use of term yuri, even for SFW stuff, like Seven Seas from what I remember. Still for the most part, those terms are so deeply ingrained in anime/manga culture, you can't really teach people to use them correctly at this point.

Yeah yeah, I am fully aware of where the term came from, although what publishers are you refering to exactly?
Nobody calls it Shoujo Ai in official deals. Last time I checked not a single localized manga sports the "Shoujo Ai" tag anywhere on the volumes. So even if they "marketed" it as that, they sure aren't actually putting down the evidence for it.
It is most definitely the manga/anime communities who perpetuate this the most (usually out of ignorance or laziness).

If everyone had the same defeatist attitude you have, people like the Seven Seas staff would never have done that.

Anyway this seems to have lost all connection to the topic, so I'm done here.

last edited at Sep 24, 2019 4:19PM

I guess there's some hope, since some publishers did start to prefer use of term yuri, even for SFW stuff, like Seven Seas from what I remember.

Completely unrelated but god bless Seven Seas and their crusade to be basically the only publisher localizing yuri works in English.

This is exactly what I need, two thumbs up!

BugDevil posted:

Yeah yeah, I am fully aware of where the term came from, although what publishers are you refering to exactly?

The ones in U.S. when they were first making deals to release manga. They needed terms to distinctive SFW stuff from NSFW stuff so they picked Yuri/Yaoi for latter and Shounen Ai for former from existing genres in Japan. But there was no equivalent to Shounen Ai in Japan so they made up a term Shoujo Ai.

Nobody calls it Shoujo Ai in official deals. Last time I checked not a single localized manga sports the "Shoujo Ai" tag anywhere on the volumes. So even if they "marketed" it as that, they sure aren't actually putting down the evidence for it.

Well, I can't argue with that as I do not live in U.S. neither I buy manga translated to English in general, but I know for a fact, they made up that term to have a way to market entire SFW part of Yuri. My Japanese professor also owned a bookstore that sold manga, so not only he knew Japanese in general, he read manga as well and naturally was well-versed on the topic. His policy was to read everything his store owned, so he can actually talk about any book he sells and can recommend you stuff. He was the one I learned from about what Shoujo Ai really means, when he was giving us a funny trivia about how Americans fucked up when making up those terms to market manga in America. And it wasn't the first time when instead of just using actual Japanese terms or asking, they made up words themselves. Bokken is not a Japanese word and nobody uses it when practicing Kendou in Japan. Americans misread it when introducing Kendou and it stuck.

Anyway, you can read more about Shoujo Ai and similar terms on this site. It's actually really good and you can learn a lot great trivia, if you're interest in language. From what I read all of it match with what I was taught so it seems like a reliable source.

If everyone had the same defeatist attitude you have, people like the Seven Seas staff would never have done that.

I actively fight against shounen and shoujo ai. I simply don't bother with other words since I agree with majere, they're relatively harmless. At least now when new term is getting added, it uses the actual Japanese definition like Isekai or Iyashikei.

last edited at Sep 24, 2019 4:49PM

I love the art so much

think about the possibilities of a lamia, she's probs got no gag reflex and thats a win in my book

@CaioGuedesAUT That nosebleed was created by Chitose seeing a yuri kiss NOT directly by the choco :)

Didn't know Oddman 11 had a spin-off. Setsu Alter is going places.

(Humans are the real monsters intensifies)

This feels like Dowman lite! I like it. XD

Serious Oddman 11 vibes from pg 1 on

TIL ...

butter dog

Shit this hit the top of my list on page three. It only got better from there.

That yuki onna is seriously cute, reminds me of Shoebill kemono friends

RealmOMFG posted:

The whole debate going down in the comments could easily be resolved by just accepting that Japanese and Western anime fans use different terminology in different ways, and will probably continue to do so. Whateves though.

Anywho, this is off to a fun start. She's like if Tomoko had the confidence to go through with any of the shit she thinks about in her head. Plus the added bonus of monster girls. Hell yeah. I'll be keeping an eye on this one.

Yeah Tomoko stopped trying after being punch.... a lot xP

nopenopenopenopenopenope

This is too much. FUCK THIS SHIT I'M OUT

I'll go ahead and claim the squid girl as MY waifu, sorry everyone, is official.

I'll go ahead and claim the squid girl as MY waifu, sorry everyone, is official.

Leave Ika-chan alone-degeso!