Most of the fan groups I've been involved with have been highly leery at best about what used to be called RPS, or Real People Slash. Shipping characters is one thing, but fantasizing about an actual person's private life for your jollies seems...well, creepy is the best word for it I guess.

Shipping characters is one thing, but fantasizing about an actual person's private life for your jollies seems...well, creepy is the best word for it I guess.

In my defence, I already forgot all but one of those pairs, and even so, any ships, either in literature or IRL aren't the focus of my attention for longer than... what, 5 minutes? But still, for the one pair I didn't forget, this discussion really return the scene of them holding hands back then to my mind. Thanks.

last edited at Sep 12, 2019 4:03PM

......

Yeah, I think I'm gonna abstain from visiting this forum for at least 24 hours, probably closer to 48.

irl shippers be like:

last edited at Sep 12, 2019 6:51PM

Yeah, I think I'm gonna abstain from visiting this forum for at least 24 hours, probably closer to 48.

Once again you mistake inconsequential "self-punishment" for actually doing something. Instead of just turning your eyes away, you should probably confront your flaws.

I like turtles.

I like turtles.

Same.

I like turtles.

The candies or the animals?

I like turtles.

I had a pet turtle when I was a kid. The turtle always seemed to hate me. I remember that one time I played the saxophone for him, hoping that the music will make him like me, but he still hated me. :(

bubbleteabird posted:

I like turtles.

I had a pet turtle when I was a kid. The turtle always seemed to hate me. I remember that one time I played the saxophone for him, hoping that the music will make him like me, but he still hated me. :(

Wow, that was a weird thing to read. I should remind myself never to write while sleep deprived again.

Anyone heard about Juliantina?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBiSa9z-bSE
Well, now I can't wait for that movie and telenovela spin-off about them.

Yeah, I think I'm gonna abstain from visiting this forum for at least 24 hours, probably closer to 48.

Once again you mistake inconsequential "self-punishment" for actually doing something. Instead of just turning your eyes away, you should probably confront your flaws.

I didn't do it as self-punishment. If it were, I wouldn't have limited it to just this forum and it would've lasted at least 3 days. It was more a limited self-reflection of sorts. And evenmoreso a way to distract myself.

Someone: mentions the word "manichean" on a forum on Dynasty
Me, a history enthusiast whose only association for the word "manichean" is a fringe sect if Zoroastrianism founded by and named after Mani (a priest during the early Sassanid period):

Posted by @TheLostLight

@BugDevil My point was more that KyoAni often takes such large creative liberties with their adaptations that you should (in my opinion) just consider the adaptations and their respective source materials two completely different stories. So making an argument about one while using evidence from another doesn't really hold water if you think along those lines.

But if you want to talk about KyoAni and their portrayal of Yuri, I'm down, but that's an entirely different beast. First of all,

"Dragon Maid was gay from inception."

has some unpacking to do. If you're referring to Tooru, then yes, she's pretty undeniably gay (if you ignore that she's not actually human, but a dragon... but I think it counts) and KyoAni, somewhat surprisingly, left that completely unaltered. If you're talking about Kobayashi and Tooru's relationship, then... I'd have to say that in the manga it's pretty explicitly platonic. Kobayashi states multiple times that she has no interest in Tooru or women and chapter 37 just reinforces that notion further.

If we're talking about the anime, then I think people in general vastly exaggerate what it actually is, which in my opinion is the same as any other KyoAni "yuri(bait) pairing": intentionally vague. It lets people who like the idea ship their pairs and become more attached to the characters, while those who are (unfortunately) uncomfortable with the idea are able to reasonably deny any romantic undertones and thus don't end up feeling alienated from the story. I'm convinced beyond a doubt that KyoAni does this intentionally and that they wouldn't do anything to alienate fans on either side of the coin (although that could possibly change in the future as certain trends develop, who knows?).

All of that being said, I think one could make an argument for Dekomori and Nibutani being one of KyoAni's most strongly implied "yuri(bait) pairs" with things such as subliminal romantic imagery appearing upon their contact; a kiss which, although accidental, is played off with them not being simply annoyed or disgusted by it, but embarrassed and highly conscious of each other whenever it's mentioned; having the established couple's date in the movie mirrored by a date of Nibutani and Dekomori's own; and various other intimate moments such as wiping away tears, blowing on and touching the inside of the other's thigh, sleeping together in cuddling positions, among other things. They've built up a pretty gaygood track record. But yeah, in the end their relationship is the same as any other non-het KyoAni relationship: hinted at just weakly enough to be reasonably deniable. Whether that's a good or bad thing depends on the individual I suppose.

That Dragon Maid part is utter nonsense...
You completely misread Kobayashi's character. While yes, she is usually more ambivalent, she actually never clearly states she is not into women. In fact there were many chapters (Chapter 48 in particular), that very strongly hint at Kobayashi's changing feelings for Tooru. Chapter 37 is the one where she grew a dick and her hormones went haywire. If you somehow garnered that because she was turned off by Tooru getting out of her maid outfit... uh. Ever heard of fetishes?
And even if we blind ourselves and somehow twist Kobayashi into not interested in Tooru whatsoever in any way... that does not at all change the fact that Tooru is openly gay. It does not change the Kanna/Saikawa dynamic. Are you gonna pretend that one is "platonic" too? Get outta here.

KyoAni didn't change anything plot or character related from the manga except for the order of things and exaggerating the confrontation with Tooru's dad. Therefore, the anime is not in any way more vague than the manga was. Tooru's open love for Kobayashi completely shatters any attempt to keep it straight for those who are uncomfortable with lesbians. And again... Kanna/Saikawa. The show also teases a yaoi pairing and a shotacon pairing, so it really doesn't hold back for anyone's sensibilities.

My main problem with the Nibutani/Dekkomori pairing is, and I don't care whether you want to ignore this, that the source material still matters. If they ever finished the story, the conclusion would have to be mostly the same to the novels. There is simply no way they would ever give Nibutani an openly gay ending. Therefore it can never go beyond subtext or bait.

Posted by Komi028

To be fair DekoShinka were ahead of the hetero couple of the show before the movie happened, and most of kyoani hetero couples from other shows are below what DekoShinka showed for each other, if they're more developed that pairings involving boys and girls, then they aren't subtext or that other word I won't type.

How can confirmed attraction/romantic interest be behind subtext that confirms nothing?

last edited at Sep 20, 2019 5:42PM

How can confirmed attraction/romantic interest be behind subtext that confirms nothing?

That's super simple actually, most of the kyoani hetero couples that never got movies are in the limbo or will they/won't they kiss, for the general average audience that's the confirmation of attraction or romantic interest and DekoShinka got one in the first OVA. Sure, they didn't willingly smacked lips with each other but when you have two tsunderes, regardless of their gender, the universe itself has to conspire to make their first kiss happen.

And everyone in the show acknowledges it as a kiss, the whole cast does it in the OVA and later in episode 8 of season 2, when dealing with the stalker, they outright say that Deko already had her first kiss, Deko and Shinka themselves never deny it either they just blush at the memory but they never say it wasn't a kiss. The kiss itself is the reason they begin travelling together in the movie which leads to them cuddling together in bed which leads to the fanart in which this discussion started.

If it looks like a kiss, everyone in the show says it's a kiss, and the people kissing don't deny it, then it's a kiss.

That's how they got ahead of all the kyoani couples that didn't kiss, while I don't believe a kiss is 100% necessary to confirm a couple in any series, if they already have it, then it can be used as a confirmation. It's like if you had a test to confirm couples regardless of their gender, a kiss would automatically give a passing grade. No reason to bring the rest of their interactions to the table.

How can confirmed attraction/romantic interest be behind subtext that confirms nothing?

That's super simple actually, most of the kyoani hetero couples that never got movies are in the limbo or will they/won't they kiss, for the general average audience that's the confirmation of attraction or romantic interest and DekoShinka got one in the first OVA. Sure, they didn't willingly smacked lips with each other but when you have two tsunderes, regardless of their gender, the universe itself has to conspire to make their first kiss happen.

But that is just the thing, we got confirmation for Yuta and Rika. It was not just hinted at, we knew they had feelings for each other.
The kiss was an accident, no matter how you sugarcoat it, so it is no confirmation for anything. Sure you could say they "went farther", but if that happened to completely unrelated characters, would you make the same statement?
Naruto and Sasuke kissed in like the first arc of Naruto, yet obviously they didn't end up being lovers (despite all they gay jokes).

And everyone in the show acknowledges it as a kiss, the whole cast does it in the OVA and later in episode 8 of season 2, when dealing with the stalker, they outright say that Deko already had her first kiss, Deko and Shinka themselves never deny it either they just blush at the memory but they never say it wasn't a kiss. The kiss itself is the reason they begin travelling together in the movie which leads to them cuddling together in bed which leads to the fanart in which this discussion started.

If it looks like a kiss, everyone in the show says it's a kiss, and the people kissing don't deny it, then it's a kiss.

I am sure you make a difference between a "true" kiss and a fake kiss, but I think a kiss is a kiss, no matter the intent behind it. So them acknowledging that it was one, well, it's weak eveidence, isn't it? And I don't know what gave you the idea that the kiss was the cause for them traveling together.

That's how they got ahead of all the kyoani couples that didn't kiss, while I don't believe a kiss is 100% necessary to confirm a couple in any series, if they already have it, then it can be used as a confirmation. It's like if you had a test to confirm couples regardless of their gender, a kiss would automatically give a passing grade. No reason to bring the rest of their interactions to the table.

That is a really weak passing condition then. The only thing that confirms anyone as a couple should be them, ya know, confirming their feelings and asking each other to date. At most we can add up every single interaction and repeated kissing as them going out if they don't want to actually address the issue, but clearly that's not the case and unlikely to happen.
One accidental kiss and a whole lot of not going out just don't make for a very logical passing grade. There is a reason why pretty much everyone (even the shippers) calls it subtext, not actually confirmation.

last edited at Sep 20, 2019 5:51PM

But that is just the thing, we got confirmation for Yuta and Rika. It was not just hinted at, we knew they had feelings for each other.
The kiss was an accident, no matter how you sugarcoat it, so it is no confirmation for anything. Sure you could say they "went farther", but if that happened to completely unrelated characters, would you make the same statement?
Naruto and Sasuke kissed in like the first arc of Naruto, yet obviously they didn't end up being lovers (despite all they gay jokes).

If it happened to completely unrelated characters, those characters would deny it and say it wasn't a kiss but an accident, the point I'm trying to make it's because they call it a kiss and don't deny it, that means they have feelings for each other.

I am sure you make a difference between a "true" kiss and a fake kiss, but I think a kiss is a kiss, no matter the intent behind it. So them acknowledging that it was one, well, it's weak eveidence, isn't it? And I don't know what gave you the idea that the kiss was the cause for them traveling together.

They wouldn't acknowledge it as a kiss if they didn't have feelings for each other, they wouldn't even blush, just be disgusted and say it wasn't that and never brought it up again.

That is a really weak passing condition then. The only thing that confirms anyone as a couple should be them, ya know, confirming their feelings and asking each other to date. At most we can add up every single interaction and repeated kissing as them going out if they don't want to actually address the issue, but clearly that's not the case and unlikely to happen.
One accidental kiss and a whole lot of not going out just don't make for a very logical passing grade. There is a reason why pretty much everyone (even the shippers) calls it subtext, not actually confirmation.

Dating is a strong word, more than half the couples I love aren't dating. You don't need them to be dating to confirm the affection/romantic interest for each other, a couple of people that have feelings for each other isn't the same as a dating couple. The first is a couple the audience knows is in love because they left their feelings clear to the audience with their blushing and acknowledgement of romantic stuff like kissing, and the second is a couple they tell each other they are in love. The kyoani hetero couples that haven't kissed aren't dating either and that's why I got into this conversation in the first place.

If it happened to completely unrelated characters, those characters would deny it and say it wasn't a kiss but an accident, the point I'm trying to make it's because they call it a kiss and don't deny it, that means they have feelings for each other.

They wouldn't acknowledge it as a kiss if they didn't have feelings for each other, they wouldn't even blush, just be disgusted and say it wasn't that and never brought it up again.

I find that interpretation really strange. An accidental kiss could very well make you embarassed rather than disgusted. Their reactions were certainly more on the "This is really embarrassing" rather than the "I liked it" side.
Again, if you put such incredible importance on a kiss being acknowledged as if it confirms someone's feelings, you might have watched too much Shoujo anime. Just accepting that their lips touched - and that is usually what people call a kiss, no need to pretend it isnt - is not really admitting to anything.

Dating is a strong word, more than half the couples I love aren't dating. You don't need them to be dating to confirm the affection/romantic interest for each other, a couple of people that have feelings for each other isn't the same as a dating couple. The first is a couple the audience knows is in love because they left their feelings clear to the audience with their blushing and acknowledgement of romantic stuff like kissing, and the second is a couple they tell each other they are in love. The kyoani hetero couples that haven't kissed aren't dating either and that's why I got into this conversation in the first place.

The word couple implicitly means to be in a relationship. Unless we are also stretching that term to its limits, that is very much the same as dating.
For example, before Yuta and Rika admitted their feelings for each other and crossed the line into going out territory, I would never have called them a couple. Were they in love with each other? Clearly. They made it obvious and we were in the know. Still not a couple.

With Nibutani and Dekkomori we don't even have that. Because you want them to be a couple you will justify that belief with subtext, but it will never be more than subtext and not necessarily very convincing one at that, especially in a KyoAni anime. I already explained in depth why a kiss or acknowleding it as a kiss has no consequence on their relationship status, but if they can't even fulfill the most basic requirement of making clear in some obvious way that they actually have feelings for each other (even just to the audience), it is simply a lost cause.

I believe it is quite the opposite, Nibutani and Dekkomori are lagging behind ridiculously far behind the main couple, even before they actually confessed. Because for Rika and Yuta we at least had romantic conflict and tension. Because we knew. Because that was what the plot was working towards. NibuDeko has not much aside from the usual shiptease.

I don't think I can make this any clearer than that, so that's my conclusion for this topic.

last edited at Sep 20, 2019 6:46PM

Ok, I got your point, we have different ideas about what a kiss actually confirms and what is a "couple" (I always used pairing and couple interchangeably because being in a relationship was never a requirement for me, just the feelings), so this would go nowhere if it continued.

@BugDevil Thanks, I was planning to make my next response in a different thread as well. I'll get back to you with a proper response... sometime this weekend probably. Maybe tonight, maybe Sunday, depends on what I have going on.

last edited at Sep 20, 2019 8:11PM

Cowbelly just released episode 69 of "Daily Meme Dose", and you better believe I joined in the "nice" spam in the comments section.

My main problem with the Nibutani/Dekkomori pairing is, and I don't care whether you want to ignore this, that the source material still matters. If they ever finished the story, the conclusion would have to be mostly the same to the novels. There is simply no way they would ever give Nibutani an openly gay ending. Therefore it can never go beyond subtext or bait.

that´d be true if we were talking about canon character from the novel like kumiko and reina from euphonium, people knew that there was no way that they´d end up together, because in the novel kumiko ends up with tsukamoto, but it´s a different case with dekomori she was tacked on the story, there´s no source material for her, writters don´t have a storyline to follow, they can writte anything they want. If at the end of the novel nibutani were to find a boyfriend like kumiko that´d be a different story because in that case the writtes have to follow the novel, but i don´t think that´s the case so at this specific case the source material doesn´t really matter

I mean we all know that no there´s no way nibutani and dekomori end up together(mostly because at this point the franchise is over) but that has nothing to do with the source material, like @TheLostLight already said that just how kyoani works being maid dragon the only exception. That being said the anime does have strong subtext that´s a fact, there´s strong evidence that nibutani and dekomori may or may not be in love, but come on dude we work with less than that nico and maki barely talk at the anime the subtext between yui and azu-nyan is barely noticeable if you don´t use your yuri goggles. If your logic is "if is not on the source material fuck it " you´re pretty much skipping 30% of this site content

that´d be true if we were talking about canon character from the novel like kumiko and reina from euphonium, people knew that there was no way that they´d end up together, because in the novel kumiko ends up with tsukamoto, but it´s a different case with dekomori she was tacked on the story, there´s no source material for her, writters don´t have a storyline to follow, they can writte anything they want. If at the end of the novel nibutani were to find a boyfriend like kumiko that´d be a different story because in that case the writtes have to follow the novel, but i don´t think that´s the case so at this specific case the source material doesn´t really matter

Nibutani is the lynchpin here. Her ending in the novels decides what KyoAni can do. Therefore Dekkomori's side doesn't matter. She could even be openly gay for Nibutani, it would change nothing.

I mean we all know that no there´s no way nibutani and dekomori end up together(mostly because at this point the franchise is over) but that has nothing to do with the source material, like @TheLostLight already said that just how kyoani works being maid dragon the only exception. That being said the anime does have strong subtext that´s a fact, there´s strong evidence that nibutani and dekomori may or may not be in love, but come on dude we work with less than that nico and maki barely talk at the anime the subtext between yui and azu-nyan is barely noticeable if you don´t use your yuri goggles. If your logic is "if is not on the source material fuck it " you´re pretty much skipping 30% of this site content

That's why I am not a shipper. I only give credence to pairings that have solid support in the actual series. Subtext is not always good subtext. I can look at a Love Live image and say "Ha that's cute". Do I ship it? Of course not. Never gonna happen and completely OOC. Those shows are bait.

Now when I look at something like Demon Girl Next Door on the other hand, the subtext is very straightforward and ramps up over time. Confirmation is lacking of course, but it's a work in progress. I don't really ship the characters so much as I predict where the author will go with them and what the intention is. Authorial intent supersedes wishful thinking of the fans. There are also series like Neptunia which have subtext and it is clear what the devs actually intent romance wise, but are shackled by their need to sell games and thus cannot proceed with that intention.

NibuDekko is a dead end on all levels. Even if I think the subtext is there and it is quite obvious the anime team at least was genuine in their attempt to give this subtext, I also know they just did it to give Nibutani more substance and have more cute girls in the show. They saw that the dynamic was lacking something and inserted Dekkomori to supplement that. As a friend for Rikka and as a foil for Nibutani she works wonders and is not intrusive on the source material. As a romantic interest however she becomes more problematic.
Exactly because this is KyoAni I can never believe that this was ever intended to go anywhere beyond teasing.

last edited at Sep 23, 2019 4:04PM

Oh, so this may be a good week for me anyway...
23rd - restart activity on Discord and play Vic2 with lil bro
24th - get thet one schoolbook that's missing and spend some quality time with dad
25th - Peru episode od GeographyNow!, episode 15 of CBRX AND my GF and I celebrating our 4th year anniversary 4 days early (due to her school trip)
26th - new Kings & Generals documentary AND final chapter of YagaKimi raws
27th - seeing my GF off and wishing her a happy journey on her school trip
28th - WEEKEND
29th - weekend AND the actual earlier mentioned 4th anniversary.