Ok, seems like a lot of people didn't check out the dub to see how bad the name blunders turned out. It was very obvious that the people doing it did not care enough to even check the source material before dubbing (same with the sub, but we're not talking about that right now). It's not just the matter of ruining the nuances of the honorifics, but also the matter of inconsistency and incoherency in the script.

So almost every major characters are on first name basis (they refer to Riko as Miss. Hakozaki to show respect, ofc) since English localization and whatnot (so even Sayaka and Yuu are on first name basis). But Maki and Doujima are referred to as Maki and Doujima--those are their last names, not first. In the story, Maki's first name, Seiji, was not revealed until the birthdays chart from vol 6 (although you did learn of it since vol 2 thanks to the characters list from the manga site). Doujima's first name, Suguru, was not revealed until ch 12. So the reason why they got stuck with last names is because Sentai Dub did not do any research and so their decision to do simuldub came back to bite them in the ass.

This inconsistency in how the characters even address each other eventually led us to the clusterfuck that was the scene that came after the pet names calling. Here's the manga version for reference (or check out the Asenshi + honorifics sub for ep 7, scene starts at 15:47). And here's the dub script for that scene:

Touko: Yuu, do you know where the PE committee roster is?
Yuu: Let's see... should be this file.
Touko: Great, thanks.
Sayaka (thinking to herself): Something seems different today... What is it?
Doujima: Hang up. You're calling Yuu by her first name? That seems, maybe, kinda unpresidential.
Sayaka (thinking to herself while looking at Doujima, smiling & fist pumping): Yeah, something's about the way she says it.
Touko: I call all of my friends by their first names. Why is that weird?
Doujima: Well, my first name is Suguru!
Touko: Oh, that's a very nice name, Doujima.
Doujima: Ouch, that's harsh.
Sayaka: Yuu, would you mind if I maybe come up with a nickname for you?
Yuu: Sure, feel free.
Sayaka: Nah, I'll just keep calling you by your name. Nicknames are something reserved for your boyfriend or girlfriend, so nevermind.

Aside from the fact that the witty flow of original scene is completely gone, this script doesn't even have any flow or make any sense. Doujima just randomly brings up Touko calling Yuu by her first name even though she has always called her that since they first met in the dub. Why is it "unpresidential" for Touko to call Yuu by her first name even though this is supposed to be targeting towards English-speaking audience and first name basis is the norm? Does becoming the student council president or vice president in Japan mean that you have to start acting more formal with other students below you? Is that why they've been addressing the boys by their last names (even though everyone else also call them by those)? Sayaka still addresses Yuu as Yuu, does that mean that they are great friends? Or maybe Japan is just very sexist towards boys now? Speaking of Sayaka, how did she even tell that there was something different in the way Touko is saying "Yuu" and deduce that it must have been something to do nicknames when no one even brought that up in the convo at all? What was she even trying to get out of giving Yuu a nickname? The point of the original is to show how the rest of the student council body react to Touko now calling Yuu by her first name, but since the equivalent pet name isn't even brought up here, what is even the point of this entire scene???

This scene is far and away from what the original intended & unwittingly muddles the characters' bases for addressing one another. You could argue that most people wouldn't even care or notice whether this scene even make a lick of sense, but bad script is bad script and it wouldn't have happened if they had kept the honorifics, or at the very least, had the characters start off with last name basis first, or you know, put an effort into researching the source material beforehand.

last edited at Sep 6, 2019 5:36AM

@BD: since you've now stated that you're done I'll leave it at what I've said so far. We have different ideas of what localisation can and should do, and that's fine.

Thanks for pointing out the passage of Kobayashi's. I'll only say that I have no issue with what Funimation did with it. It most likely was not a translator that added the line about dragons, but an editor that saw a chance for a small quip.

@Gudetamago I'll just go ahead and quote myself conceding that the scene you mentioned would have made more sense with minor alteration:

For that episode, it would have worked out perfectly if she'd thought to have Touko refer to Yuu as "Yuu, dear" instead of just having Sayaka remark that "something feels off" in general.

"Perfectly" was obviously exaggerating things, but we weren't in nuanced debate mode back then, right?
Obviously, Doujima's remark would have to be altered as well then, but let's look at where it stands currently:

I can very easily accept Maki and Doujima being referred to by their surname as a consequence of them being pretty much the only boys around. Makes sense to me.
You definitely need to stretch a little in a different direction to resolve cognitive dissonance regarding Doujima's remark. It can be done: Doujima, Maki and Yuu are the three first years of the StuCo, yet only one of them is referred to by their first name. That being the case it seems plausible (to me) that Doujima was under the assumption that the elders would refer to their underclassmen by family name. He is presented as a bit of an occasional airhead, so it's plausible that he just hadn't realized this before.

I appreciate that you assume incompetence rather than malice, but I honestly believe it was ambition.
And I maintain that the honorifics just break the flow for me when reading the manga. They feel stilted and awkward to me. I know I'm alone with this perspective in this discussion, but that's just the way it works for me, and I'm willing to have one scene not work out quite as well for the overall increase in QoL.

I probably should heed Blastaar's advice and not make any more puns... because this entire discussion was started over one.

last edited at Sep 6, 2019 5:57AM

Isn’t that always the way?—one person’s increase in QoL is other people’s objectionably marked decrease in QoL.

All life is suffering, sayeth the sage . . .

@BD: since you've now stated that you're done I'll leave it at what I've said so far. We have different ideas of what localisation can and should do, and that's fine.

Thanks for pointing out the passage of Kobayashi's. I'll only say that I have no issue with what Funimation did with it. It most likely was not a translator that added the line about dragons, but an editor that saw a chance for a small quip.

No. The line is about not being into " women or dragons". That goes 100% against the intention of the source material. Kobayashi is supposed to be neutral on the whole thing, not revealing her sexuality or anything of the sort. The dub actively turned it into a negative rejecting statement, which was not in the original. Your overly accepting attitude decreases the quality of the product. Be a little more critical of alterations, would you?

Of course the translator didn't add that nonsense in, it was the script writer. It is publically known who did the script for all episodes and she is well known for altering the context or content of an anime however it suits her, completely ignoring the original intention.
There are even worse changes in the later episodes at that.

The dub was generally well handled, but these unecessary alterations are not acceptable. Localisation is not a shield to play around with the source material as one pleases.

You have been cornered on the YagaKImi dub issue in every conceivable way and your only out is "But I liked it". Irrelevant. Sometimes you have to give up things you prefer for consistency and integrity. Adding "dear" is not a fix. Nobody in America which this is supposedly aimed at would say that either. It fails in every single regard in all cultures in that scene. It was plain and simply ruined, for absolutely no gain whatsoever.

last edited at Sep 6, 2019 6:38AM

The number of very long posts in this thread talking about technicalities is impressive and a bit overwhelming.

The number of very long posts in this thread talking about technicalities is impressive and a bit overwhelming.

That’s true for Yuu . . .

I dunno what Yuu talking about :P

excited voice: YES! More puns!

last edited at Sep 6, 2019 8:38AM

Dunno about Yuu, but I think we're done with the discussion anyway.

We should probably REIn in our egos now and appreciate what we got.

last edited at Sep 6, 2019 8:52AM

excited voice: YES! More puns!

Cooler heads are supposed to be a calming influence on rascals like BV, but it seems that in fact BV has a deleterious effect on others, turning me into a rank hypocrite:

I felt like everyone had some good points to make about the translation/localization issue, but they Touko long time to make them.

Now I feel like a Sayaka sh*t . . . .

Dunno about Yuu, but I think we're done with the discussion anyway.

We should probably REIn in our egos now and appreciate what we got.

.

Cooler heads are supposed to be a calming influence on rascals like BV, but it seems that in fact BV has a deleterious effect on others, turning me into a rank hypocrite:

I felt like everyone had some good points to make about the translation/localization issue, but they Touko long time to make them.

Now I feel like a Sayaka sh*t . . . .

dies of laughter

last edited at Sep 6, 2019 10:24AM

At this point I'd rather see more puns than this tedious back-and-forth over localization, even though the latter is at least nominally on-topic.

Yuu too?

...I'll get my coat.

@Zormau No, it wouldn't work at all if Touko called Yuu "Yuu dear" in front of the entire student council. It is a pet name & thus has romantic inclination & no amount of excuses could have covered up the reason for her using it. That's basically Touko ratting out their relationship & if Yuu were to hear that, she wouldn't just be calmly replying to Touko like nothing big had happened since she's been the more cautious one out of the two irt how they come across to others. It'd just be spiraling down a rabbit hole that is far from resembling the original script.

but we weren't in nuanced debate mode back then, right?

It has always been about nuances though. Nuance, integrity, coherency, and consistency--good scripts need those, right?

can very easily accept Maki and Doujima being referred to by their surname as a consequence of them being pretty much the only boys around. Makes sense to me.

How does that make any sense? That's not a common basis English speakers use to address people's name. Not in this day and age. Referring to another person by their last name in American English means that you're very unfamiliar with the person, maybe to the point of indifference and not wanting to interact with them much. Do the three girls in the stuco have that much reservation against the boys they work with? And it's not just in the stuco, they are referred to by their last names outside of it too, like when they interact with Akari and Koyomi. Since this is not common for American English, people without any knowledge of Japanese culture could even assume that maybe that's how Japanese people interact with each other: girls can call each other by their first names, but they have to refer to the boys by their last names, but the boys can still refer to the girls by their first. That is not accurate. It's an error that completely muddles the bases on which the characters address one another--neither faithful to the American nor the Japanese cultures.

Also, I made my post to point out how the dub is very flawed in how it is trying to adapt the original script to fit its localization bias due to a lack of proper care and research, not to see how someone can stretch their imagination to make sense of the bad script. This is not about subjectivity. I'm not taking away your right to like the dub, but to show how the decisions Sentai made irt handling the names and honorifics are bad.

I appreciate that you assume incompetence rather than malice, but I honestly believe it was ambition.

What's the ambition though? Half-assing the script instead of properly researching the original material then needing to do mental gymnastic to put together a script that still makes no sense and is nothing like the original when they mess up? Trading off accuracy and nuances for the sake of convenience then just rolling with it and ending up altering what the original work even look like is not something that should be encouraged. And by this, I'm not saying that all localizations are bad, It's more like if they so insisted on localization, why not do research or wait for the original to finish airing first before being "creative" with localizing the script? Being creative and being faithful to the source are not mutually exclusive, you know? And now that they have already made these huge mistakes, isn't it much more honest and ambitious to revisit the dub script instead? & yes, I am aware that it's costly to do so, that's why they should take measures to not make the mistakes in the first place.

At this point I'd rather see more puns than this tedious back-and-forth over localization, even though the latter is at least nominally on-topic.

I'd say the discussion between Blastaar, Nevri, BD and me is done, so I'll quickly (really) wrap up with Gudetamago and hope the best.

@Gudetamago
A discussion about nuance is not the same as a nuanced discussion. You know that. ;-)

I'd be very curious about what factors brought about our different perspectives, because we disagree on many things in strange ways. We probably shouldn't pursue that train of thought here, though.
It's tempting to draw it out and further enumerate on the hows and whys of what I think, but let's do Nezchan a favour and stop.

Zormau posted:

There is no perfect equivalency in translation. Even simply carrying over the honorifics will, in many cases, not be perfectly equivalent. Not only because they're an alien element in English, but also because the audience will not have a uniform concept of what those words entail. Sure, they'll have a rough concept and there will be a lot of overlap and they'll generally get the gist... but don't they also get that from a localisation like the one we got? I think they do.

No, they don't, because the context has been completely changed and it doesn't match the essence of original. So no, they do not get the gist of it, because here, the nuance has been removed and butchered.

As for the target text becoming foreign to both cultures... I don't really see why I should care whether the localised text is now alien to the original language community... They are absolutely not the target audience.

And this really proves my point of you not understanding the issue. My point is now it doesn't represent either. It's not true how things are in country of targeted audience, but now also doesn't represent the actual culture of original work, so it neither work as work grounded in target audience culture, nor as learning experience for original culture and completely failing to capture the essence of original in the process.

Yes, indeed, sometimes things just go horribly wrong. But then again, I think it's apples to oranges.

It's not. It would be if it was localization done right, but it isn't. We aren't arguing about doing localization or not. We're arguing whatever that localization was done well or not. And choice between well done localization and poorly done one is not "apples and oranges". As BugDevil said, it's pretty clearly case of you simply liking it and defending it despite its flaws.

Making the way hierarchy is expressed less specifically Japanese is a far cry from actually hard-changing the setting to another continent...

And yet in your posts you repeatedly treated both kind of changes as pretty much equal, as long as they serve target audience. Like now for example. It's Japanese story. The way hierarchy is expressed there is important. In fact, I'm surprised I didn't comment about it, but just because we are more used to using names over last names, it does not mean changing characters to use first names when translating Japanese work, is even remotely being "similar" or "approximation". Japanese put much more weight on first name usage. Changing everyone to call each other using first names, because it's the way it's done here, is nowhere the same thing as everyone using last names in Japan. The second they decided to do it, they already decided to ignore trying to make it anywhere near equivalent experience for their target audience.

Zormau posted:

This means that I am more willing than you to take a step back from the setting being as specifically Japanese as possible. That's the big difference I see between our perspectives. I don't need the story to be as specifically Japanese as possible. I don't think it loses anything substantial in this case, as the hierarchies, while less explicit, are still well-represented.

That's pretty much the entire reason we disagree. Because you don't care about Japanese culture and are more than willing to remove it from the work. You're ignoring that even if you perfectly follow sociolinguistic rules of the target language, the story still takes place specifically in Japan, so you can't change the norms to fit target audience and then hand wave the fact, they don't match anymore to what was presented in original story. No matter how much you want it to, it doesn't reflect original context anymore.

We simply expect different things from and value different aspects in our entertainment products.

Yes. I expect to get experience as close to original as possible. You just want to read something that flows well and don't care if original story had to be changed in the process.

It's a lot more work

I really dislike the implication that "normal" translation is easier. Sure, just translating something can be easy, but properly expressing the intent of author and keeping the essence of original, while making it understandable to people speaking different language. Now, that is hard work. The only reason localization is more work and is riskier is because, they decided to give themselves more work, they didn't really need to. Especially nowadays, when we live in connected world and different cultures are mixing together, I find the need to obscure them and making translation as user friendly as possible, insulting to a degree. But you do you. It's clear nothing we tell you, will ever change your mind. It's a bit scary that you or people like you might be working on some localizations in the future.

Zormau posted:

I can very easily accept Maki and Doujima being referred to by their surname as a consequence of them being pretty much the only boys around. Makes sense to me.
You definitely need to stretch a little in a different direction to resolve cognitive dissonance regarding Doujima's remark. It can be done: Doujima, Maki and Yuu are the three first years of the StuCo, yet only one of them is referred to by their first name. That being the case it seems plausible (to me) that Doujima was under the assumption that the elders would refer to their underclassmen by family name. He is presented as a bit of an occasional airhead, so it's plausible that he just hadn't realized this before.

Now that is rich. You first preach how translation should do all work for reader/watcher and make it as in line with sociolinguistic rules of the target audience as possible, but now when said translation fucked up something, you're backpedaling and saying the audience should figure out how to make sense of it? And no, nothing you wrote here make any sense. Using last names for boys is not how the "target audience" is using their language. In fact, them addressing only boys by last names would be ultra weird and worth commenting on. There's no rule that elders refer to their underclassmen by family name, which would be very confusing for target audience. And the best, now you're saying target audience is supposed to infer a character trait based on something that didn't exist in original and wasn't a problem? And you're trying to convince us, original work isn't misinterpreted? Also, you're saying audience is expected to figure all that, while watching without pausing, when goal of that supposedly superior localization was to remove need for such things?

I just wanted to make a proper reply, since I didn't have time last time. I pretty much agree with Blaastar's summary and Gudetamago probably explained what I was getting at much better than I did.

Anyway. I'm going to do something else now, so would Yuu excuse me...

I had to.

last edited at Sep 7, 2019 2:44PM

No, they don't, because the context has been completely changed and it doesn't match the essence of original. So no, they do not get the gist of it, because here, the nuance has been removed and butchered.

Honorifics are the opposite of nuance to me. They're about as in-your-face as it gets. Hence "hierarchy is expressed differently in English, yet it still exists". Sure, that argument is irrelevant if you want the story to remain as specifically Japanese as you do, as much linguistically as culturally.

It's not. It would be if it was localization done right, but it isn't. We aren't arguing about doing localization or not. We're arguing whatever that localization was done well or not. And choice between well done localization and poorly done one is not "apples and oranges". As BugDevil said, it's pretty clearly case of you simply liking it and defending it despite its flaws.

This is very important: I don't like it despite the "flaws", as you call them. I love it for them. They immeasurably improved my watching experience.

Because you don't care about Japanese culture and are more than willing to remove it from the work.

Now that's coming off a little strong and hostile, don't you think?

You're ignoring that even if you perfectly follow sociolinguistic rules of the target language, the story still takes place specifically in Japan, so you can't change the norms to fit target audience and then hand wave the fact, they don't match anymore to what was presented in original story. No matter how much you want it to, it doesn't reflect original context anymore.

Right. So would you like me to rewrite a chapter and actually not "reflect the original context anymore"? That would certainly be an interesting experiment. It could be set it in an Austrian University, different continent, age range and school type, that should make for an interesting context, you know, because it apparently makes no difference if I "misrepresent" one aspect or the entirety of it.

That would be a monstrous thing to do, which is how you and Gude have been portraying the existing dub's script.
It's also what modern theater people do all the time.
"What, the Magic Flute is set in a fictional, religiously-inspired fantasy world with magic? Let's put it in a late 20th Century German city. Papageno the bird catcher is now a burnt-out businessman, Monostatos the (emphatically black) African slave is now a white biker wearing black leather."
Come to think of it, that was actually a fun interpretation to watch and listen to, despite being really offensive to the purists.

Yes. I expect to get experience as close to original as possible. You just want to read something that flows well and don't care if original story had to be changed in the process.

I'd add "slightly" to "changed", but yes. Flow is more important to me, as long as the character, message and feel of the story remains unchanged.

But you do you. It's clear nothing we tell you, will ever change your mind. It's a bit scary that you or people like you might be working on some localizations in the future.

You yourself probably need not worry about me. I'll only be localising works into German, at least professionally. And believe you me, what we currently have is about as terrible as bad-to-average English localisations from fifteen years ago.
Besides, if the market or client decides that localisations are appreciated more the way you like them, that's what we'll start delivering. I don't know if there have been any studies on that, and due to cohort effects the results might be of limited use for companies aiming for broad audiences, but we'll do what the market decides.

Now that is rich. You first preach how translation should do all work for reader/watcher and make it as in line with sociolinguistic rules of the target audience as possible, but now when said translation fucked up something, you're backpedaling and saying the audience should figure out how to make sense of it?

The debate about this scene is one I really can't win, and never really could. You've all argued the point quite well, so I'll concede that the scene will never work as smoothly as the original did.
When I first watched it (before I'd read the manga), I immediately caught on to what the original context of this scene and the one before had been. It was clear that the scene had been constructed around the way Touko and Yuu address each other (or rather, how Touko addresses Yuu), and that they'd had to rewrite it since they'd been using first names from the start. This definitely reinforces your point that it did not quite work out by itself. I'm probably contradicting previous assertions I'd made. I admit that I'm backpedalling in this case.
As mentioned before, I was and still am willing to have this scene not work out quite as well, considering how much more I enjoyed the rest of it.

There is one thing that I would like to remind you all of. You've been on this forum for years, probably been reading Shoujo and Yuri manga for a good portion, if not the better part, of your lives. I haven't.
I'm a former aficionado of all things Japanese, part-time anime and JRPG enthusiast with probably only about a hundred watched shows under my belt.
This means you've been living and breathing this medium and these translations. They're second nature to you. They're completely natural to you. You don't stumble over surnames and honorifics, because you're nearly as used to them as a Japanese person. I do, as do those around me.

Our perspectives are different. Your perspective, of the purist, enthusiast, aficionado, is a very valuable one to have and consider. It is not, however, the only valid one.

I'm obviously not as invested as you are in the purity of the original, and here's why:
I consider "how much did I enjoy it" the ultimate metric to entertainment media. BD can claim that it's irrelevant, but in the end we consume fiction to have a fun or emotional experience. In some cases we appreciate it being weird, foreign or difficult, in other cases we enjoy how polished the experience is.

I'm fairly familiar with Japanese culture as well, don't worry, but I don't find enjoyment from the stories in anime and manga because of their setting. It's not despite it, either. Stories work across cultures. Characters work across cultures. Sure, some elements will be specific, and those can be very important. Linguistic ones, however, rarely make or break a story.

If the alterations in the script actually ruined the dub for you, then I feel honestly sad for you.
Because you were unable to enjoy the one piece of media I enjoyed most in years.
You simply can't please everyone.

If they actually re-dub it with the alterations Gude would like to see, I will absolutely watch that dub as well. If I end up enjoying it as much as I did the first version, I'll happily eat my words. I wouldn't hold my breath, though, for either of those events. That is the one thing that could change my mind.

Anyway. I'm going to do something else now, so would Yuu excuse me...

I had to.

Thanks for the effort. Yuu did gud. I also had to

Edit: Damn now I really want to see this alternative dub. You'd be happy to have the version "as it should be", I'd get to properly test my assertion that I enjoyed the omission of Japanese address formalities. It's a win-win, right?

last edited at Sep 7, 2019 5:37PM

Cripes, when I mentioned a "tedious back-and-forth", I didn't even say the half of it, did I?

Maybe y'all could take these blog-length posts to an actual blog or something.

Anyway. I'm going to do something else now, so would Yuu excuse me...

I had to.

Thanks for the effort. Yuu did gud. I also had to

Neither of you had to, but Yuu still did it.

last edited at Sep 7, 2019 5:39PM

You were so focused on if Yuu could, you never stopped to as if Yuu should.

You are both doing kami's work.

Translator's note: Kami means "god" in the poorly localized sense

You were so focused on if Yuu could, you never stopped to as if Yuu should.

Don't know about you, but I was always convinced that Yuu should, and in this latest chapter we finally got to see that Yuu could.

Just trying to kinda take it back to topic.

Zormau posted:

This is very important: I don't like it despite the "flaws", as you call them. I love it for them. They immeasurably improved my watching experience.

Same thing and proves my point. You just like this translation, regardless how accurately it reflects original. I said it before, you're free to prefer it and like it over any other translation, but you can't defend it on basis of being accurate representation of original work. Or similar enough or however you want to call it.

Now that's coming off a little strong and hostile, don't you think?

That's the impression I got from your posts and insistence that culture of original is irrelevant to the work and you can easily remove it without changing any aspect of the work.

I actually considered to say if you want to reply we can continue it in Cafe, but I didn't think you'd actually make a serious reply, neither I was interested in continuing it since our arguments are clearly flying over your head. So I just wanted to clarify few things and with this I'm officially done... with Yuu.

Here I am looking for posts regarding how they finally did it, but I see these threads and yuu puns