I was talking in term of character design not in term of in-story mindset.

All ladyboys/non binary here "pass" flawlessly as girls.

Mangakas rarely know how to draw transgender, or at least andrgynous people. Or at least transgender people that don't quite pass, other than drawing them as muscled and unshaved drag queens.

Akira, in that other manga, is at least an effort in that direction. That's why I'm so disappointed in her personality.

Enbys are a bit different. Mogu doesn't care about passing they just look like they want.

I was talking in term of character design not in term of in-story mindset.

All ladyboys/non binary here "pass" flawlessly as girls.

Mangakas rarely know how to draw transgender, or at least andrgynous people. Or at least transgender people that don't quite pass, other than drawing them as muscled and unshaved drag queens.

Akira, in that other manga, is at least an effort in that direction. That's why I'm so disappointed in her personality.

I'm trans, and personally I don't really mind that manga typically portray us as "passing", I certainly prefer that over some characiture. Besides, everybody else gets to be beautiful in manga why shouldn't trans ppl as well? Not that, less passing trans ppl can't be beautiful, but most manga styles lack the detail to pull it off, I feel. With this style in particular, if you grabbed Tetsu and put him in a dress and gave him a long wig, he'd probably look like a girl too.

Edit: Should this have the romance tag? I know Mogumo and Tetsu's relationship isn't the only focus of this work, but it is a pretty big one.

last edited at Sep 8, 2019 4:35AM

Can't believe I missed out on this manga for so long even when Kimi Dake no Ponytail was one of my favorites. Caught up to chapter 14 for now and just making a few observations:

1) What is the rationale for using the word "girlyboy"? I assume this is translating "otokonoko", but it's a strange choice as I rarely see people use "girlyboy" anywhere online. On the other hand, I don't have any better ideas other than to just use romanji verbatim...

2) Suzu and his boyfriend seem... way more lovey-dovey than what the prequels show, and Haruto going full "What are you doing with my bf" feels incredibly out of character for me. It's played for laughs, sure, but it feels as if they're entirely different characters now.

3) Think we're getting Koto-chan's character arc next. Even knowing there will be a happy ending, I'm interested in seeing how the author resolves the aaaaaangst.

8Z posted:

1) What is the rationale for using the word "girlyboy"? I assume this is translating "otokonoko", but it's a strange choice as I rarely see people use "girlyboy" anywhere online. On the other hand, I don't have any better ideas other than to just use romanji verbatim...

Because the most common and used translation of that term is "trap", which is both inaccurate and offensive.

2) Suzu and his boyfriend seem... way more lovey-dovey than what the prequels show, and Haruto going full "What are you doing with my bf" feels incredibly out of character for me. It's played for laughs, sure, but it feels as if they're entirely different characters now.

Well, prequel only shows them starting dating. At this point in story they were dating for some time now, so their dynamic naturally would change.

last edited at Sep 14, 2019 10:58AM

Can't believe I missed out on this manga for so long even when Kimi Dake no Ponytail was one of my favorites. Caught up to chapter 14 for now and just making a few observations:

1) What is the rationale for using the word "girlyboy"? I assume this is translating "otokonoko", but it's a strange choice as I rarely see people use "girlyboy" anywhere online. On the other hand, I don't have any better ideas other than to just use romanji verbatim...

2) Suzu and his boyfriend seem... way more lovey-dovey than what the prequels show, and Haruto going full "What are you doing with my bf" feels incredibly out of character for me. It's played for laughs, sure, but it feels as if they're entirely different characters now.

3) Think we're getting Koto-chan's character arc next. Even knowing there will be a happy ending, I'm interested in seeing how the author resolves the aaaaaangst.

I'm not sure how canon those prequels are, Mei seems different as well, it seems in the prequel that she is much more "out" than she is at the start of the story.
I wouldn't worry to much about the otokonoko thing, this isn't actually an otokonoko story and the term isn't used very often.

'tis the season of preachy mangas.

'tis the season of preachy mangas.

what

'tis the season of preachy mangas.

Nani

Like I'm not seeing it
Also so glad Mei is a transbian

'tis the season of preachy mangas.

you are aware this website is like mostly gay manga, right

'tis the season of preachy mangas.

Why are you even reading this series then? It's literally a supportive series that focuses on LGBT in Japan in a positive and teaching light with a wonderful story to go along with it. Calling it preachy is so uneducated and naive.

Seeing Koto-chan so overwhelmed makes me feel helpless

'tis the season of preachy mangas.

Nani

Like I'm not seeing it
Also so glad Mei is a transbian

That hasn't totally been confirmed yet, has it? I mean, I certainly want her to be, but I don't want to get my hopes up. Although the mangaka is a Yuri fan, so it's pretty likely.

I'm so glad they actually went to a pride event. That happens so rarely, it's great to see.

Bringing your heavily closeted friend who is wracked with internalized homophobia probably isn't the best idea though.

KawaiiSuika posted:

Bringing your heavily closeted friend who is wracked with internalized homophobia probably isn't the best idea though.

Isn't that the best way to show her she isn't weird? It's pretty clear author created that situation, so Koto can finally face her fears and open up to Mogu about her past. In other words, redemption arc,

last edited at Oct 6, 2019 3:25PM

'tis the season of preachy mangas.

Well, you can always read NTR.

Nya-chan posted:

'tis the season of preachy mangas.

It's nowhere near the lvl of Kanojo ni Naritai.

Nevri posted:

Nya-chan posted:

'tis the season of preachy mangas.

It's nowhere near the lvl of Kanojo ni Naritai.

It's a shame that the whole purpose of Kanojo ni Naritai is to preach at you. I actually that the author made some fairly interesting characters, but they aren't utilized well because their main purpose is to preach at the main characters, who in turn, in their internal dialogues, preaches at the audience.

What I have a beef with is that it's yet again a manga with a catalog of LGBTQ+ people, all conveniently grouped in a single place, who are, conveniently again, learning about how to be comfortable with themselves, and are, conveniently, receiving life-lessons from various nice people. Nothing wrong per se with that, but it's a bit angelic.

And too forced.

Conflicts are magically resolved, bigoted people who spit in the face of, or beat up gay couples because they dared to kiss basically don't exist. A few dialogs and lo, everyone becomes tolerant, or discover their own identity. Gay people attempting suicide or losing their home doesn't seem to be a thing. "All you need is love and understanding!" (cue for a frog to play a mandolin and sing)

As if... we are talking about Japanese society here. Not really a gay friendly society.

Fukakai na Boku no Subete o
Kanojo ni Naritai.
Giniro no Genders
Shimanami Tasogare

They are all trying to be all inclusive and somehow gay friendly. They come off, to me as, "these deviant people aren't stable psychologically and tend to gather together. Beware, they are among us! Try to understand them..."

Bleh... this is just my opinion/feeling. If you enjoy this manga, more power to you.

What I have a beef with is that it's yet again a manga with a catalog of LGBTQ+ people, all conveniently grouped in a single place, who are, conveniently again, learning about how to be comfortable with themselves, and are, conveniently, receiving life-lessons from various nice people. Nothing wrong per se with that, but it's a bit angelic.

And too forced.

Conflicts are magically resolved, bigoted people who spit in the face of, or beat up gay couples because they dared to kiss basically don't exist. A few dialogs and lo, everyone becomes tolerant, or discover their own identity. Gay people attempting suicide or losing their home doesn't seem to be a thing. "All you need is love and understanding!" (cue for a frog to play a mandolin and sing)

As if... we are talking about Japanese society here. Not really a gay friendly society.

Fukakai na Boku no Subete o
Kanojo ni Naritai.
Giniro no Genders
Shimanami Tasogare

They are all trying to be all inclusive and somehow gay friendly. They come off, to me as, "these deviant people aren't stable psychologically and tend to gather together. Beware, they are among us! Try to understand them..."

Bleh... this is just my opinion/feeling. If you enjoy this manga, more power to you.

LGBT ppl DO group together in real life, this isn't a crazy thing. Hell, in this manga it's not even a coincidence, it takes place at a cafe that is naturally gonna attract LGBT ppl. Also, homophobia and stuff very obviously exists in this work, and even more so in Kanojo ni Naritai, I don't even know what you are talking about here, Mei is homeschooled and I doubt it's because she prefers home school and several characters are clearly afraid to be out.

What I have a beef with is that it's yet again a manga with a catalog of LGBTQ+ people, all conveniently grouped in a single place, who are, conveniently again, learning about how to be comfortable with themselves, and are, conveniently, receiving life-lessons from various nice people. Nothing wrong per se with that, but it's a bit angelic.

And too forced.

Conflicts are magically resolved, bigoted people who spit in the face of, or beat up gay couples because they dared to kiss basically don't exist. A few dialogs and lo, everyone becomes tolerant, or discover their own identity. Gay people attempting suicide or losing their home doesn't seem to be a thing. "All you need is love and understanding!" (cue for a frog to play a mandolin and sing)

As if... we are talking about Japanese society here. Not really a gay friendly society.

Fukakai na Boku no Subete o
Kanojo ni Naritai.
Giniro no Genders
Shimanami Tasogare

They are all trying to be all inclusive and somehow gay friendly. They come off, to me as, "these deviant people aren't stable psychologically and tend to gather together. Beware, they are among us! Try to understand them..."

Bleh... this is just my opinion/feeling. If you enjoy this manga, more power to you.

I feel like you may just have a weird view toward series like this. Not every series needs to have dreary elements about the LGBT identity. I do understand that it can seem disingenuous when it is nothing but positives and done in a way to show such things as flawless or without issue, but not all art needs to be in the middle ground and show both. Some can be intense tragedies that highlight all the awful, and some can be comedies that show nothing but the good, and some can be a mix of both. Just like in baseline yuri having both exist are important. I don't see how it gives off the impression that the people portrayed in a positive way in these series are deviants or aren't psychologically stable since it more seems to be series that are a trend lately of presenting LGBT individuals in a positive and empathetic light. As well... While Japan is a lot worse for how they treat the LGBT identity than it is in many other places, there are still a lot of people in the LGBT community trying to change that and putting a foot forward to make things better. To just portray Japan as a horrid homophobic and transphobic place completely invalidates those efforts and the good people there trying to be better, so series like these are just as needed as the tragic ones as a glimpse into what good the future could bring. Should this be all we see? No, of course not, there should always be a variety of series portraying a wide range of views. Are some of these series preachy in their themes and messages? A bit, but not everyone can get subtle themes and messages and require things that are more blunt since there are people who read Frankenstein and think the monster is not sympathetic.

I also find it weird you mentioned Shimanami Tasogare, considering that series specifically has homophobic and transphobic characters in it, as well as portraying a hate crime by having people spray paint and mess up their building in the series.

As far as the whole, grouping a large section of LGBTQ+ people in one place conveniently... I'm not sure my experience is really universal, but given I have heard that many others are the same, LGBTQ+ people generally just group up due to it being a safe option? Those who have experienced discrimination will be more likely to be with others who experience the same. Most of my friend groups are a majority of LGBTQ+ people and identities, it is not that I don't have straight and cisgender friends, but generally it is easier to relate and make friends with others who are sympathetic to me. Especially in places that are safe toward me and my friends that are marked as LGBTQ+ friendly such as gay bars and pride buildings in the city. So presenting that isn't really an odd thing since a lot of people in the community I talk to are similar in that fact?

The only one I'd agree with you on for presenting LGBT people as deviants would be Ginrio because that has some big porn vibes coming off of it.

What I have a beef with is that it's yet again a manga with a catalog of LGBTQ+ people, all conveniently grouped in a single place, who are, conveniently again, learning about how to be comfortable with themselves, and are, conveniently, receiving life-lessons from various nice people. Nothing wrong per se with that, but it's a bit angelic.

And too forced.

Conflicts are magically resolved, bigoted people who spit in the face of, or beat up gay couples because they dared to kiss basically don't exist. A few dialogs and lo, everyone becomes tolerant, or discover their own identity. Gay people attempting suicide or losing their home doesn't seem to be a thing. "All you need is love and understanding!" (cue for a frog to play a mandolin and sing)

As if... we are talking about Japanese society here. Not really a gay friendly society.

There's nothing stopping you from reading, say, Claudine, or Pieta, or any manga with the tag Aaaangst, or whatever. There are plenty out there - there's a reason there's been a backlash against tropes of dead/evil/"crazy" gay people in media, and it's because it's been so much in the past. The thing that stands out with this manga is both that it's grounded in reality, unlike most manga on this website which both ignores homophobia altogether, and usually puts the story in a high school setting which everyone can pretend is separate from the real world, and that it's positive.
Usually you get unrealistic works where you suspect that they leave plenty of space for the characters to not continue with same-sex relationships when they graduate, or you get a realism where the characters end up unhappy or dead. I'm plenty happy to see good representation and a positive message.

(sees a manga where the queers arent dropping like flies and take the time to help each other rather than just sabotaging everyone around them) Tch...this is unrealistic and preachy tbh...super cringe bro...

'tis the season of preachy mangas.

Nani

Like I'm not seeing it
Also so glad Mei is a transbian

That hasn't totally been confirmed yet, has it? I mean, I certainly want her to be, but I don't want to get my hopes up. Although the mangaka is a Yuri fan, so it's pretty likely.

I'm so glad they actually went to a pride event. That happens so rarely, it's great to see.

Bringing your heavily closeted friend who is wracked with internalized homophobia probably isn't the best idea though.

Mei seems to like her and it Tetsu comes out as bi we got a gay bingo

Kanojo ni Naritai.is a bit different, because it all happens in a single school, but actually, I'm not interested in stories about LGBT communities.

While I understand the need for some people to group up for protection, the whole concept of "communities", whatever group they are (black, white, gay, latino, christian, jewish, muslim, abc, trans, all of the above, whatever...) looks like a failure to me. Even the flags irk me. It reeks of nationalism. And nationalism is war.

I know that the model of the American/English society is built on communities, but it looks like apartheid to me. It's a model built on distrust. It looks comfortable, at first, because you're among people who share your worldview, but these communities are doomed to oppose each other because isolation leads to groupthink and incomprehension. As intelligent beings and part of he same species, we should be able to live and let live together, whatever the background, identity, or sexual preference. We should have grown out of the tribe mentality.

Now, I sound idealistic and in contradiction with my previous rant about how these manga are angelic, but what I have a problem with is the concept of "people of the same feather flock together" and how it somehow is something positive in the long run and it solves problems. These people help each other, but at the same time, they isolate themselves from the "other". This, in return, leads to hostility from narrow minded people from all sides who feel threatened by the "alien" community. We have seen here numerous times that some LGBTQ+ people can be as intolerant as anyone when it comes to other lifestyles, especially when they feel secure in their group. Lesbians hating on trans, trans hating on cis, gay hating on bi, etc...

I don't have a magical solution to these problems, but I'm sure as hell that communitarianism isn't one.

Kanojo ni Naritai.is a bit different, because it all happens in a single school, but actually, I'm not interested in stories about LGBT communities.

While I understand the need for some people to group up for protection, the whole concept of "communities", whatever group they are (black, white, gay, latino, christian, jewish, muslim, abc, trans, all of the above, whatever...) looks like a failure to me. Even the flags irk me. It reeks of nationalism. And nationalism is war.

I know that the model of the American/English society is built on communities, but it looks like apartheid to me. It's a model built on distrust. It looks comfortable, at first, because you're among people who share your worldview, but these communities are doomed to oppose each other because isolation leads to groupthink and incomprehension. As intelligent beings and part of he same species, we should be able to live and let live together, whatever the background, identity, or sexual preference. We should have grown out of the tribe mentality.

Now, I sound idealistic and in contradiction with my previous rant about how these manga are angelic, but what I have a problem with is the concept of "people of the same feather flock together" and how it somehow is something positive in the long run and it solves problems. These people help each other, but at the same time, they isolate themselves from the "other". This, in return, leads to hostility from narrow minded people from all sides who feel threatened by the "alien" community. We have seen here numerous times that some LGBTQ+ people can be as intolerant as anyone when it comes to other lifestyles, especially when they feel secure in their group. Lesbians hating on trans, trans hating on cis, gay hating on bi, etc...

I don't have a magical solution to these problems, but I'm sure as hell that communitarianism isn't one.

I mean, just for reference, my friend group at high school ended up being 70% LGBT people. We didn't group up specifically because we thought that the others in the group were, since we were all closeted. It just kinda happened since we were all uncomfortable teens, and were all sympathetic to each other. Including the straight people in our friend group who were bullied for another reason or just really hated bullying. That isn't really basing our friendship on our community it just happened. Though, I guess in favor of your argument, none of us came out until either our senior year or later. Maybe it would have been a good thing if we weren't pressured to be closeted in the same vein though and we could have been open with each other like in some of these series so that we could have educated others and broke down barriers so there would be less groupthink and communities like the goal of many of these series.

I guess until a magical solution is found, I'm probably still gonna be more comfortable going to gay bars so I don't have to worry about a drunk guy getting mad at me for holding hands with my girlfriend and throwing glass at me.

last edited at Oct 7, 2019 9:49AM

but it looks like apartheid to me.

Bruh