^And to add to the above, being in love with someone else is not the same as considering you "unfit".

And it's not like Sayaka can't show a more vicious side when she's truly been wronged - see how she showed off Touko to her ex.

If you had a genuine friendship with someone before you ever liked them, I understand sticking around out of fear of losing that precious feeling, though I still wouldn't recommend; because let's face it, there is plenty of people out there to be purely platonic friends with.

But in Sayaka's case, she got close to Touko because she found her attractive, and pretty much had a case of love at first sight. Her friendship is the typical "friendzone" case, where she got close to a girl in hopes of becoming something more and never did. She gotta cut her losses, but in this manga everyone is stereotypical "nice girl" so it won't happen of course.

At least in my view, if you abandon someone you love romantically after they rejected you, it's not selfish desire; it's very healthy self-love and self-respect. It's also just being genuine and pragmatic about your intentions, which also shows respect for the other person. They clearly don't need you in their life as a romantic partner, they picked someone else. So, in this case, the cure for unrequited love is to not be around that person anymore until you are completely over them, and can have the same type of feeling for them as they have for you. Otherwise, there is an imbalance of power and the friendship is kinda fake.

I myself wouldn't want to be friends with someone who has lingering romantic feelings for me, it's uncomfortable. But a lot of girls looove orbiters lmao

last edited at Jun 6, 2019 8:27PM

I was just being honest. I bet most people say these things, that they are "happy for the other person" after being rejected and the girl they like chose someone else, but it's just rationalization. The person considered you unfit for being with them, and thinks someone else is better. The message is clear, that you are not good enough for them, which is why it hurts usually.

So I'd never stick around to see the girl I'm into being all lovey dovey with someone else...At least for me it's a matter of self-respect lol Which is apparently what Sayaka lacks, since she is going to keep being friends with Touko despite crushing on the girl for what seems like years.

Only after I don't care anymore and have someone else, would I then become friends again. If I was Sayaka I would submit my StuCo resignation next day and ghost from the "friendship" :P But Bloom Into You is so extremely PC, obviously that won't happen.

You have a curious idea of self respect if you would abandon your social and academic responsibilities because a crush let you down gently and hurt your feelings. I'd describe that less as self respect and more as self-centeredness.

If you had a genuine friendship with someone before you ever liked them, I understand sticking around out of fear of losing that precious feeling, though I still wouldn't recommend; because let's face it, there is plenty of people out there to be purely platonic friends with.

But in Sayaka's case, she got close to Touko because she found her attractive, and pretty much had a case of love at first sight. Her friendship is the typical "friendzone" case, where she got close to a girl in hopes of becoming something more and never did. She gotta cut her losses, but in this manga everyone is stereotypical "nice girl" so it won't happen of course.

At least in my view, if you abandon someone you love romantically after they rejected you, it's not selfish desire; it's very healthy self-love and self-respect. It's also just being genuine and pragmatic about your intentions, which also shows respect for the other person. They clearly don't need you in their life as a romantic partner, they picked someone else. So, in this case, the cure for unrequited love is to not be around that person anymore until you are completely over them, and can have the same type of feeling for them as they have for you. Otherwise, there is an imbalance of power and the friendship is kinda fake.

I myself wouldn't want to be friends with someone who has lingering romantic feelings for me, it's uncomfortable. But a lot of girls looove orbiters lmao

What a dismissive and callous attitude you have... Friends sure are replacable! Plenty of people around!
Come on.

Your definition of "nice girl" just makes me think that you only hang out with assholes. There are no losses to cut. She gained a close friend, even if it will never be more. Touko doesn't only exist to be Sayaka's love interest.

No, nothing about that is respectful to the other person. It just shows that they didn't actually care. "You won't be mine, well fuck you then. Our friendship is over." It's honest alright, but it only shows what a shitty person they are.
Not everyone has this insane trouble to get over the fact that they were rejected. Maybe you in particular just have issues to let go and need distance, but it would be best not to extrapolate that everyone is like that. Even worse that you base self-respect on it....

It's good that you realize that this is all you. Because it sure ain't relevant to Sayaka.

I was just being honest. I bet most people say these things, that they are "happy for the other person" after being rejected and the girl they like chose someone else, but it's just rationalization. The person considered you unfit for being with them, and thinks someone else is better. The message is clear, that you are not good enough for them, which is why it hurts usually.

So I'd never stick around to see the girl I'm into being all lovey dovey with someone else...At least for me it's a matter of self-respect lol Which is apparently what Sayaka lacks, since she is going to keep being friends with Touko despite crushing on the girl for what seems like years.

Only after I don't care anymore and have someone else, would I then become friends again. If I was Sayaka I would submit my StuCo resignation next day and ghost from the "friendship" :P But Bloom Into You is so extremely PC, obviously that won't happen.

You have a curious idea of self respect if you would abandon your social and academic responsibilities because a crush let you down gently and hurt your feelings. I'd describe that less as self respect and more as self-centeredness.

I understood Sayaka was in the StuCo in order to be close to Touko. We didn’t have that in my high school so I didn’t know it was important academically lol so obviously if it important academically or is something you genuinely care about (rather than something you do deep down in order to be around your crush) then by all means keep at it. It was just an example.

If you had a genuine friendship with someone before you ever liked them, I understand sticking around out of fear of losing that precious feeling, though I still wouldn't recommend; because let's face it, there is plenty of people out there to be purely platonic friends with.

But in Sayaka's case, she got close to Touko because she found her attractive, and pretty much had a case of love at first sight. Her friendship is the typical "friendzone" case, where she got close to a girl in hopes of becoming something more and never did. She gotta cut her losses, but in this manga everyone is stereotypical "nice girl" so it won't happen of course.

At least in my view, if you abandon someone you love romantically after they rejected you, it's not selfish desire; it's very healthy self-love and self-respect. It's also just being genuine and pragmatic about your intentions, which also shows respect for the other person. They clearly don't need you in their life as a romantic partner, they picked someone else. So, in this case, the cure for unrequited love is to not be around that person anymore until you are completely over them, and can have the same type of feeling for them as they have for you. Otherwise, there is an imbalance of power and the friendship is kinda fake.

I myself wouldn't want to be friends with someone who has lingering romantic feelings for me, it's uncomfortable. But a lot of girls looove orbiters lmao

What a dismissive and callous attitude you have... Friends sure are replacable! Plenty of people around!
Come on.

I didn’t say friends are replaceable, they are not because each person is unique. I said there are plenty of people around to be friends with. A scarcity mindset, where you are like “omg I am close friends with this one girl who I have a crush on, so let me keep being friends with her even though I still have a crush but now she rejected me, and watch as she is all happy with her new gf because I can’t make a new close friend” is not healthy.

Your definition of "nice girl" just makes me think that you only hang out with assholes. There are no losses to cut. She gained a close friend, even if it will never be more. Touko doesn't only exist to be Sayaka's love interest.

Of course she doesn’t. But the reality is that Touko is Sayaka’s love interest. Sayaka is not a real platonic friend if her feelings are romantic, and to make it worse, they have always been. There is an imbalance in power and desires, which is why I said, it’s better in such cases, IMHO, to just cut it out and return to the friendship once it is purely platonic, to start over. Being around an unrequited crush is like being around an ex that dumped you while you still like them: it only makes getting over it a longer process.

No, nothing about that is respectful to the other person. It just shows that they didn't actually care. "You won't be mine, well fuck you then. Our friendship is over." It's honest alright, but it only shows what a shitty person they are.
Not everyone has this insane trouble to get over the fact that they were rejected. Maybe you in particular just have issues to let go and need distance, but it would be best not to extrapolate that everyone is like that. Even worse that you base self-respect on it....

A lot of people do, especially if it’s a long intense crush as seems to be Sayaka’s case. If it wasn’t a big deal for her, she would have confessed early on rather than being super afraid.

It's good that you realize that this is all you. Because it sure ain't relevant to Sayaka.

I didn’t say friends are replaceable, they are not because each person is unique. I said there are plenty of people around to be friends with. A scarcity mindset, where you are like “omg I am close friends with this one girl who I have a crush on, so let me keep being friends with her even though I still have a crush but now she rejected me, and watch as she is all happy with her new gf because I can’t make a new close friend” is not healthy.

1. Get rejected
2. Break friendship off
3. Get new friend

Yeah, no replacing going on at all. Don't kid yourself.

Being around an unrequited crush is like being around an ex that dumped you while you still like them: it only makes getting over it a longer process.

For you. That's how I can sum all of this up honestly.

A lot of people do, especially if it’s a long intense crush as seems to be Sayaka’s case. If it wasn’t a big deal for her, she would have confessed early on rather than being super afraid.

She was afraid that Touko would reject her, but also to lose her friendship. Kinda the thing you say she has to break off just because of pride or some nonsense like that.

I've been on both ends of it both ways--unrequited and unrequiting--and it just fucking depends.

Sometimes people stay friends because they, you know, really like each other, and finding people like that isn't easy.

Sometimes people need to distance themselves because it's too awkward and painful, and they don't want to hurt each other/be hurt.

If there ever was a YMMV situation . . .

People still can maintain a close friendship even after they decide to break up their romantic relationship.

It's not exactly about respect for one self or the other party, but more like emotion maturity. They understand certain type of relationship cannot work out but they are still willing to support each other in other means.

I know a gay man who broke of with his wife to pursuit his "true feeling" and marrying a another man. He and his ex-wife as well as their three daughters still hang around like good friends. His wife also marry another man and two sides maintain a friendly relationship with little trouble.

I even saw a high school couple constantly making out during their fresh man year. They went through some nasty break up during sophomore year. By their senior year, the dude had a new girl, and the girl surprisingly got a girlfriend as well. But those two began to talk to each other again, they weren't acting as besties but they crack jokes now and then like old acquaintances.

In drama, jealousy and betrayal in romantic relationship are good contents to hook their audiences but that does not reflect reality. It is quite overused to a point that those two feelings are the only and ultimate result of a relationship gone one sided. In reality, we don't have the luxury for those emotions. Of course the feeling betrayal and jealousy are real and there are definitely many who have to suffer through that, but that is not the only outcome we have to accept.

I think I appreciate this series for not using the jealousy card like so many other romance. It is short of fresh and show the emotion maturity of all side: Yuu slowly understand the reality of love, Nanami's own personal growth thanks to her romantic feeling, and Sayaka despite nothing went the way she wanted, she acquire certain fortitude to stand against and accept the bitterness of love.

last edited at Jun 7, 2019 9:50AM

If there ever was a YMMV situation . . .

As most of the time, I have to fight tooth and nail for people to just accept that both options are real and fine. Inadvertently, that makes it look like I take one side, but I'm merely arguing for one side, because the other only accepts their own.

I mean no shit sometimes people need to take some distance, but there is no loss of self-respect if you don't...

last edited at Jun 7, 2019 9:57AM

People still can maintain a close friendship even after they decide to break up their romantic relationship.

It's not exactly about respect for one self or the other party, but more like emotion maturity. They understand certain type of relationship cannot work out but they are still willing to support each other in other means.

I know a gay man who broke of with his wife to pursuit his "true feeling" and marrying a another man.

This is actually pretty different. In this case, the guy is literally saying he prefers another gender, it’s a criteria the woman simply cannot meet so in a sense it’s not a status threat. She will feel the loss of her partner but not a status loss. But I can assure you if he traded her for another woman, especially if it’s a younger one, things usually get nasty unless it’s dealt with by the trader with extreme tact. Even then it’s difficult. BTW this is assuming it was not a mutual breakup. If it’s mutual then all is good of course.

I even saw a high school couple constantly making out during their fresh man year. They went through some nasty break up during sophomore year. By their senior year, the dude had a new girl, and the girl surprisingly got a girlfriend as well. But those two began to talk to each other again, they weren't acting as besties but they crack jokes now and then like old acquaintances.

Which is exactly what I said...distance yourself then go back to being friends once you no longer see that person as a potential romantic partner.

In drama, jealousy and betrayal in romantic relationship are good contents to hook their audiences but that does not reflect reality. It is quite overused to a point that those two feelings are the only and ultimate result of a relationship gone one sided. In reality, we don't have the luxury for those emotions. Of course the feeling betrayal and jealousy are real and there are definitely many who have to suffer through that, but that is not the only outcome we have to accept.

I think I appreciate this series for not using the jealousy card like so many other romance. It is short of fresh and show the emotion maturity of all side: Yuu slowly understand the reality of love, Nanami's own personal growth thanks to her romantic feeling, and Sayaka despite nothing went the way she wanted, she acquire certain fortitude to stand against and accept the bitterness of love.

last edited at Jun 7, 2019 10:51AM

People still can maintain a close friendship even after they decide to break up their romantic relationship.

Like my GF's parents, for example!

If there ever was a YMMV situation . . .

As most of the time, I have to fight tooth and nail for people to just accept that both options are real and fine. Inadvertently, that makes it look like I take one side, but I'm merely arguing for one side, because the other only accepts their own.

Wait what? Lol I accept that both options are valid. As usual, just because I have an opinion that you find controversial and mentioned it, you feel like I am saying your opinion is less valid.

Providing an opinion that opposes yours is not the same as saying yours is not ok. It just means I don’t agree with it.

I mean no shit sometimes people need to take some distance, but there is no loss of self-respect if you don't...

Of course it doesn’t meant that every time, but is usually associated with being an orbiter and taking longer to get over that person. The person usually values you less also, because they think you are doing stuff because you like them. Are you telling me you never seen these things happen? When I was in school and university it was so regular.

Wait what? Lol I accept that both options are valid. As usual, just because I have an opinion that you find controversial and mentioned it, you feel like I am saying your opinion is less valid.

Providing an opinion that opposes yours is not the same as saying yours is not ok. It just means I don’t agree with it.

The milder version of "taking space" is definitely fine, but you always exaggerate everything to a ludicrous degree where you force people to point out you are wrong.

I mean no shit sometimes people need to take some distance, but there is no loss of self-respect if you don't...

Of course it doesn’t meant that every time, but is usually associated with being an orbiter and taking longer to get over that person. The person usually values you less also, because they think you are doing stuff because you like them. Are you telling me you never seen these things happen? When I was in school and university it was so regular.

Your "usually" is the issue. Yes, cases like that do happen. The norm though? Not by a longshot.
And again, it doesn't apply to this situation. The one we are actually discussing. The one where you made up things like loss of self-respect for having basic human decency and not losing your shit like a drama queen.

You make a good thing look bad, just because it annoys you that it didn't happen the way you experienced it. I know you tend to have issues with relating to things that don't go your very specific route, but come on.

I think we are done here.

Whatever, you always take things too seriously lol

Besides you already know I have an issue with every single character in this series being an angel always doing the right thing from start to end of the story. For me it’s not exciting or relatable, and makes for a less interesting story because the “everything will be alright, everyone will be kind, smooth sailing ahead” is so guaranteed.

Like this manga is famous only because the other ones are so bad structurally that they make an absolutely predictable vanilla story look great just out of not having gaping plot holes or unexplainable personality changes midway through it.

Again only my opinion :P I will stop now.

last edited at Jun 7, 2019 1:14PM

I do know that you have issues.

Yeah let's stop. We already discussed that stuff before.

last edited at Jun 7, 2019 1:18PM

You have a curious idea of self respect if you would abandon your social and academic responsibilities because a crush let you down gently and hurt your feelings. I'd describe that less as self respect and more as self-centeredness.

I understood Sayaka was in the StuCo in order to be close to Touko. We didn’t have that in my high school so I didn’t know it was important academically lol so obviously if it important academically or is something you genuinely care about (rather than something you do deep down in order to be around your crush) then by all means keep at it. It was just an example.

Fair enough. StuCo isn't like most clubs. In Japan, dropping out of any club (especially if you have a leadership position) would hurt you academically and socially, but especially so with StuCo. Student Council is responsible for the management of school events, and they assist the teachers in organizing and interacting with the students. It's a big responsibility, and an honors student like Sayaka is definitely going to want that on her CV when applying for college admissions. I guarantee that while being near Touko was probably a strong factor in the decision, Sayaka was definitely not oblivious to the other benefits (and responsibilities) of being in Student Council.

Dropping out of StuCo halfway through her second year would: Inconvenience the teachers, hurt her relationships with her juniors, Hurt her reputation within the school, Hurt her chances of getting into her first-choice university, and would generally be regarded as a flake move in a society that is notoriously unkind to students that shirk responsibilities.

Here in the US, it's less of a thing, but if you were trying to get into someplace difficult, being in student government looks really good on your application and if you dropped out halfway through the junior year, that's gonna come up in the interview and "A girl broke my heart" is not a good answer.

Student Council is responsible for the management of school events, and they assist the teachers in organizing and interacting with the students. It's a big responsibility, and an honors student like Sayaka is definitely going to want that on her CV when applying for college admissions. I guarantee that while being near Touko was probably a strong factor in the decision, Sayaka was definitely not oblivious to the other benefits (and responsibilities) of being in Student Council.

And we recall that Sayaka assumed that she was going to be the school Queen Bee herself until she was blown away by the Flower of Nipponese Womanhood that is Touko—she makes a natural second-in-command, whatever her romantic feelings for Touko.

And it’s a given that her friendship with Touko wasn’t just a charade that she put on to allow her to be around her loved one—she would have continued at that friend/assistant/confidante level indefinitely if Touko hadn’t changed emotionally so as to allow Sayaka to think she might have a chance. So both Sayaka’s sense of responsibility and her stoicism about her romantic feelings would keep her on the job to the end.

After all, we’re talking about arguably the greatest third wheel in love-triangle history—and perhaps the most doomed.

Lol no way. Seju from WDTFS is the best 3rd wheel of any love triangle I have seen by far. You simply cannot beat being such a good 3rd wheel that at least half the readership is cheering for you despite impossible odds, starts believing that the advertised plot twist is that you are actually the main character and then you get your own story

Most doomed yes, Sayaka wins.

last edited at Jun 8, 2019 10:53PM

Lol no way. Seju from WDTFS is the best 3rd wheel of any love triangle I have seen by far. You simply cannot beat being such a good 3rd wheel that at least half the readership is cheering for you despite impossible odds, starts believing that the advertised plot twist is that you are actually the main character and then you get your own story

Most doomed yes, Sayaka wins.

Seju is an asshole. Sayaka is not an asshole.

Lmao Seju was terrible. I don't know what's the definition of "best third wheel" though

Lmao Seju was terrible. I don't know what's the definition of "best third wheel" though

Well, most third wheels are just a narrative obstacle at best, or an active agent of evil at worst. Although they may be necessary for the functioning of the plot, the audience usually basically wishes them away.

If we do sympathize with them, it’s as an object of pity, or, if the writing is off, it becomes Second-Lead Syndrome, where the audience ultimately prefers the third-wheel character in place of one half of the OTP.

If the writing is really off, as in WDTFS or Milton’s Paradise Lost, the antagonist is made more interesting than the bland or misconceived protagonists, and the whole center of gravity of the story gets thrown out of whack.

Rarely are third-wheel characters admirable as people in their own right, integral parts of the storyworld going forward after the central conflict is resolved, and not seen as diminished or contemptible due to their rejection.

That’s my take, anyway.

last edited at Jun 9, 2019 3:24AM

Lmao Seju was terrible. I don't know what's the definition of "best third wheel" though

Well, most third wheels are just a narrative obstacle at best, or an active agent of evil at worst. Although they may be necessary for the functioning of the plot, the audience usually basically wishes them away.

If we do sympathize with them, it’s as an object of pity, or, if the writing is off, it becomes Second-Lead Syndrome, where the audience ultimately prefers the third-wheel character in place of one half of the OTP.

If the writing is really off, as in WDTFS or Milton’s Paradise Lost, the antagonist is made more interesting than the bland or misconceived protagonists, and the whole center of gravity of the story gets thrown out of whack.

Rarely are third-wheel characters admirable as people in their own right, integral parts of the storyworld going forward after the central conflict is resolved, and not seen as diminished or contemptible due to their rejection.

That’s my take, anyway.

I meant I don't know what's matsuri's definition of what makes a third wheel the best. From their comments I can just infer they like characters with issues, troublesome and unhealthy relationships, so I assume a good third wheel for them is similar to something like that.
Sorry for the misunderstanding but I agree with your take :^)

last edited at Jun 9, 2019 4:05AM

Lmao Seju was terrible. I don't know what's the definition of "best third wheel" though

Well, most third wheels are just a narrative obstacle at best, or an active agent of evil at worst. Although they may be necessary for the functioning of the plot, the audience usually basically wishes them away.

If we do sympathize with them, it’s as an object of pity, or, if the writing is off, it becomes Second-Lead Syndrome, where the audience ultimately prefers the third-wheel character in place of one half of the OTP.

If the writing is really off, as in WDTFS or Milton’s Paradise Lost, the antagonist is made more interesting than the bland or misconceived protagonists, and the whole center of gravity of the story gets thrown out of whack.

Rarely are third-wheel characters admirable as people in their own right, integral parts of the storyworld going forward after the central conflict is resolved, and not seen as diminished or contemptible due to their rejection.

That’s my take, anyway.

I meant I don't know what's matsuri's definition of what makes a third wheel the best. From their comments I can just infer they like characters with issues, troublesome and unhealthy relationships, so I assume a good third wheel for them is similar to something like that.
Sorry for the misunderstanding but I agree with your take :^)

Oh, in that case—just look at the username. Lol

matsuri_wins posted:

Wait what? Lol I accept that both options are valid.

And yet you adamantly argue your option is the only one right, valid and respectful one?

matsuri_wins posted:

So I'd never stick around to see the girl I'm into being all lovey dovey with someone else... At least for me it's a matter of self-respect lol Which is apparently what Sayaka lacks, since she is going to keep being friends with Touko despite crushing on the girl for what seems like years.

matsuri_wins posted:

If you had a genuine friendship with someone before you ever liked them, I understand sticking around out of fear of losing that precious feeling, though I still wouldn't recommend; because let's face it, there is plenty of people out there to be purely platonic friends with.

Your posts are full of statements like that, clearly panting the "ditch someone you supposedly care about and find someone else to replace them" as the only real solution and anything else is just not caring about your well-being and self-respect. So yea. At no point you agreed other option is valid, but you personally disagree with it. You were constantly saying your option is better and Sayaka is stupid for not choosing it.

matsuri_wins posted:

Of course it doesn’t meant that every time, but is usually associated with being an orbiter and taking longer to get over that person. The person usually values you less also, because they think you are doing stuff because you like them.

Well. Sounds like you either have really poor understanding of how friendship works or all relationships you were in, were really shallow. Either way, no, that's not how it's. Or I guess it doesn't always happen. It's not like once you confess and get rejected, people automatically think everything you do is out of love or value you less because of it.