Is it wrong of me to ship the protagonist with Minato? Eventho i know Shoutaguy has more chance than her, sigh.
Sadly tho, not that much of screentime with those two.

IS THIS GAY OR NOT WTF AUTHOR WHY ARE YOU LIKE THIS

Guys! It's basically canon that they're gay. I mean, they're already holding hands when they haven't even kisses yet!!11!11!!

Damn it, it feels so close to being yuri. I wanna make it through this series because it's so fun and cute but it's torture at the same time.

I read too much yuri.

I don't see this going as yuri, everything what happened came out as natural as it gets, to me at least, MC never even considered a relationship in the first place, she's figuring out herself, and all this touchy-touchy might seem yuri-ish, but it's just a natural reaction from Nozomi, specially among other girls like she herself said, and if there's anything being developed it's a potential relationship between MC and that obnoxious motorcycle guy (ugh), awesome story though ... that I'm removing from my "read list"

Ah, chapter 46, also known as the "Your ship is dead, in fact I travelled back in time to make certain it was never even born" chapter, courtesy of Kuzushiro.
There is a reason this isn't tagged as romance anywhere. Just because she is a yuri author doesn't mean every work is yuri (though Kuzushiro has serious trouble seperating the two, you can feel it in many of the situations and expressions).

I get it, it's about the troubles of sisterhood and loss. Nothing wrong with that.
Incidentally this might be the most organic SOL I've read in ages. All these characters feel rather real and there is so much detail in each interaction. The care to flesh the world and lives out is really astonishing.

The fact that I'm captivated despite the co-dependence part being the only actual conflict, but which hasn't even been addressed for who knows how long, is really something. The way things are framed and told just makes every little realization or reaction seem like it has so much more meaning than it does haha

and if there's anything being developed it's a potential relationship between MC and that obnoxious motorcycle guy (ugh)

That is incredibly unlikely. I think there is a little negative bias involved here. The story has not shown Shino having any interest in anyone (except subtext with Nozomi) and "motorcycle guy" was a friend of her brother. He basically just exists as another way to trigger Shino and give her more insight on her brother from yet another perspective.

last edited at Oct 7, 2018 3:14PM

Ah, chapter 46, also known as the "Your ship is dead, in fact I travelled back in time to make certain it was never even born" chapter, courtesy of Kuzushiro.

Such a pessimist--I read that as a classic, "the way we feel about each other has nothing whatsoever to do with romantic love, nosireebob, which you can tell because of the exhaustive detail in which we've both already individually considered why it couldn't possibly be romantic love and what it would be like if it were romantic love, and we'll always be besties no matter what guy comes along, and maybe we'll just end up as spinsters together anyway" conversation. Which is always ironclad proof that there's not the slightest romantic feeling involved in the relationship at all.

So, blunt statement of dramatic intent by the author, or one or both characters whistling past the (as it were) emotional graveyard?

I do have my personal preferences, but whatever happens, I agree that this is by far one of the best-written manga series I've ever read, so I'm glad to just put myself in the author's hands and take whatever comes.

Such a pessimist--I read that as a classic, "the way we feel about each other has nothing whatsoever to do with romantic love, nosireebob, which you can tell because of the exhaustive detail in which we've both already individually considered why it couldn't possibly be romantic love and what it would be like if it were romantic love, and we'll always be besties no matter what guy comes along, and maybe we'll just end up as spinsters together anyway" conversation. Which is always ironclad proof that there's not the slightest romantic feeling involved in the relationship at all.

So, blunt statement of dramatic intent by the author, or one or both characters whistling past the (as it were) emotional graveyard?

I do have my personal preferences, but whatever happens, I agree that this is by far one of the best-written manga series I've ever read, so I'm glad to just put myself in the author's hands and take whatever comes.

Ahahah, I would certainly love if what you describe here was the case. It's strange how both extremes could exist in the same comments section. First someone declaring this heading for an unavoidable hetero crash site and then you spinning it all into a fake-out that sets up the real Yuri experience.

I can't actually disprove your interpretation. There has been enough precedence in other yuri manga to not make it sound too outlandish. This is just a gut feeling I have. Chapter 46 didn't seem like a ship tease kind of denial moment, but rather the decidedly direct address to the audience by the author to make them stop shipping the sisters. There was something very genuine about them rejecting the idea and calling it too problematic to be worth it. Instead the chapter was again harping on Nozomi's dependence on Shino and how she has trouble coping with being left alone (the whole part about Shino getting a boyfriend and Nozomi's reaction to it).

Perhaps one of the reasons this feels like it doesn't want to be actually yuri is that each "romantic" situation has been purposely undercut or explained believably with some substitute. For example, when I read the part where Shino was blushing furiously and thinking about sleeping with Nozomi the previous night, that seemed like a very clear romantic flag... and then she actually managed to make it believable that she was embarrassed for acting childish. That happened over and over in this manga. It may even be some twisted form of playing with expectations, but ultimately these are too manifold to not be intentionally diffusing any romantic approach.

Perhaps one of the reasons this feels like it doesn't want to be actually yuri is that each "romantic" situation has been purposely undercut or explained believably with some substitute.

You’re probably right—I too don’t get the feeling that this is heading for a real yuri romance. But that’s what it is—a general feeling rather than anything based on solid evidence from the text.

I’ve actually been saving a full re-read of this for when I feel like I deserve one, but I just looked quickly at some random chapters and I can definitely say this:

Out of those four or five random chapters, if I took a drink for every time there was a reference to or implication about the relationship between Shino and Nozomi being like a romantic/spousal one (“I want a wife like you,” “Are you confessing to a person?”, “That sounds like something a boyfriend would say,” etc.), I would be too drunk to type this right now.

last edited at Oct 7, 2018 4:16PM

You’re probably right—I too don’t get the feeling that this is heading for a real yuri romance. But that’s what it is—a general feeling rather than anything based on solid evidence from the text.

I’ve actually been saving a full re-read of this for when I feel like I deserve one, but I just looked quickly at some random chapters and I can definitely say this:

Out of those four or five random chapters, if I took a drink for every time there was a reference to or implication about the relationship between Shino and Nozomi being like a romantic/spousal one (“I want a wife like you,” “Are you confessing to a person?”, “That sounds like something a boyfriend would say,” etc.), I would be too drunk to type this right now.

The weird thing about those is that they actually feel like normal teasing. Like, something people would actually joke about. Their relationship is far from normal after all. And that is kinda where it stops, normal teasing without an actual purpose to set up romance.
Just for fairness sake, they also say she is acting like Nozomi is her mother all the time (something which makes Nozomi very peeved lol)

If this is all a set-up to turn the tables on us... goddamn. Kuzushiro is pure evil.

last edited at Oct 8, 2018 10:51AM

You’re probably right—I too don’t get the feeling that this is heading for a real yuri romance. But that’s what it is—a general feeling rather than anything based on solid evidence from the text.

I’ve actually been saving a full re-read of this for when I feel like I deserve one, but I just looked quickly at some random chapters and I can definitely say this:

Out of those four or five random chapters, if I took a drink for every time there was a reference to or implication about the relationship between Shino and Nozomi being like a romantic/spousal one (“I want a wife like you,” “Are you confessing to a person?”, “That sounds like something a boyfriend would say,” etc.), I would be too drunk to type this right now.

The weird thing about those is that they actually feel like normal teasing. Like, something people would actually joke about. Their relationship is far from normal after all. And that is kinda where it stops, normal teasing without an actual purpose to set up romance.
Just for fairness sake, they also say she is acting like Nozomi is her mother all the time (something which makes Nozomi very peeved lol)

If this is all a set-up to turn the tables on us... goddamn. Kuzushiro is pure evil.

It's kind of like reading literature--when does a pattern of ordinary details become a significant motif? When do (as a random parallel example) scenes of people chopping food in the kitchen and someone accidentally cutting themselves on a box cutter at work and a person using a paper cutter for party invitations--you know, the normal details of realism--add up to someone eventually getting their throat cut or maybe figuratively stabbed in the back?

Stay tuned, I guess.

It's kind of like reading literature--when does a pattern of ordinary details become a significant motif? When do (as a random parallel example) scenes of people chopping food in the kitchen and someone accidentally cutting themselves on a box cutter at work and a person using a paper cutter for party invitations--you know, the normal details of realism--add up to someone eventually getting their throat cut or maybe figuratively stabbed in the back?

Stay tuned, I guess.

I didn't know you were dabbling into soothsaying and reading palms haha
Just kidding, I also would like them to get together, despite the many many issues that would create. I can almost taste the drama "You are just using me as a replacement!" "I'm my own person!" "I feel like I'm cheating on Taishi..."
Ah the endless pain that could await us.

My gut has been wrong before, so tuned I shall stay.

I think what makes me most skeptical is that I can't come up with another manga that has done a comparable "let's do 50 chapters and THEN maybe do some actual romance" routine. None. If a romance has been slow burn, it's practically always otherwise signaled fairly clearly that it'd be on the cards at some point.

It'd be like ... a comedy 4-koma suddenly deciding to be super plot-heavy or something ^^;

I think what makes me most skeptical is that I can't come up with another manga that has done a comparable "let's do 50 chapters and THEN maybe do some actual romance" routine. None. If a romance has been slow burn, it's practically always otherwise signaled fairly clearly that it'd be on the cards at some point.

It'd be like ... a comedy 4-koma suddenly deciding to be super plot-heavy or something ^^;

I didn't wanna say it, because it seems like thinking outside the box, kinda ruins the fun as the reader (like reading an author's tweet that says they won't do something in their work).
I also can't think of any example in romance where that happened, but there were some manga where the story took a very dramatic turn like 100 chapters in. I'm sure some people here would argue that it has been telegraphed fairly clearly, although I'm not one of them.

Expect the unexpected though!

No, I agree with both @Pyroro and @BugDevil.

It’s just that the repeated quasi-romantic bits have been so regular that the question is, if the story isn’t trying to suggest something yuri-esque, what is it going for? A het first love is even further away than that, which suggests that any romance is pretty much off the table, and anyway, the big question has always been about the relationship between the two women. So maybe it’s a “family of choice” endgame.

I’m not trying to palmread, really—I agree that in context the things I’ve mentioned don’t read as genre tropes, but they’re also rather prominent to just be throwaway bits of banter.

Again, something like a, “I saw her with someone else at the fireworks festival and now feel terrible” scene doesn't have to be a romance trope, but that is pretty much the default starting point. I feel quite confident that the author has the chops to use it for something else, though.

I think it's undeniable that the author teases on purpose. The covers alone make that very clear. The question is just ... is the teasing a purpose in and on itself, just for teasing's sake so to speak, or is it supposed to lead somewhere?
Het relationships are tough to exclude since crappily done romance is common and can easily happen instantly. The other option is of course just an extension of this entire "letting go" theme, "our feelings for each other are misguided, we need distance/move forward" - whether it then acknowledges some romantic tension or just very close friendliness that kinda spilled over into co-dependency wouldn't matter much.

And of course actual romance between them can't truly be excluded. There's certainly no strict "no, definitely won't happen." moment in it. And, I mean, Stretch certainly looked like it'd go from teasing to actual development (even if it then abandoned ship ^^). I'm sure there's other examples here or there out there. And even if not, someone's bound to do it at some point. So it's not really ... an argument, per se. Just some context.

I think it's undeniable that the author teases on purpose. The covers alone make that very clear. The question is just ... is the teasing a purpose in and on itself, just for teasing's sake so to speak, or is it supposed to lead somewhere?
Het relationships are tough to exclude since crappily done romance is common and can easily happen instantly. The other option is of course just an extension of this entire "letting go" theme, "our feelings for each other are misguided, we need distance/move forward" - whether it then acknowledges some romantic tension or just very close friendliness that kinda spilled over into co-dependency wouldn't matter much.

And of course actual romance between them can't truly be excluded. There's certainly no strict "no, definitely won't happen." moment in it. And, I mean, Stretch certainly looked like it'd go from teasing to actual development (even if it then abandoned ship ^^). I'm sure there's other examples here or there out there. And even if not, someone's bound to do it at some point. So it's not really ... an argument, per se. Just some context.

I’m not sure I have anything further useful to say, but I do want to say (useful or not):

I believe in and care about these characters to a degree matched only by a small handful of other manga series, and in those others I have a much clearer sense of where the story is going, primarily because the genre signals have been much more overt and straightforward from the beginning.

It’s my investment in seeing these two characters continue to work on their interactions with each other (rather than simply a knee-jerk “yuri or die” desire) that makes me somewhat dread that “We now will get on with our separate lives” trajectory or a stable quasi-mother/daughter relationship post-letting-go-of-dead-big-bro.

Perhaps this is all just to say that the story has been really good so far and the only reason to anticipate that the forthcoming chapters won’t be as rewarding as the previous ones is because they’re being imagined by me, and I (unlike this author) am a crappy creative writer.

No, I agree with both @Pyroro and @BugDevil.

It’s just that the repeated quasi-romantic bits have been so regular that the question is, if the story isn’t trying to suggest something yuri-esque, what is it going for? A het first love is even further away than that, which suggests that any romance is pretty much off the table, and anyway, the big question has always been about the relationship between the two women. So maybe it’s a “family of choice” endgame.

I’m not trying to palmread, really—I agree that in context the things I’ve mentioned don’t read as genre tropes, but they’re also rather prominent to just be throwaway bits of banter.

Again, something like a, “I saw her with someone else at the fireworks festival and now feel terrible” scene doesn't have to be a romance trope, but that is pretty much the default starting point. I feel quite confident that the author has the chops to use it for something else, though.

I honestly think the teasing and banter was just that... ship teasing for the readers and some banter. I actually noticed that for a few chapters already the "she is like your girlfriend" etc. comments have been going down or been replaced with "she's acting like your mom" ones. Maybe the author truly does want to break away from the shipping a bit, because it overshadowed the actual point (<-- pure disgusting speculation right here)

That example is actually one of the things I meant by "undercut and diffused of romantic intent". I also thought Shino was jealous in that scene or perhaps realizing she wanted Nozomi to not date someone else... but that was why it actually hit me all the harder when I realized that in Shino's ideal world, Nozomi would always be happy with her brother. If Nozomi were to get a new partner, that would be 100% proof that Taishi is dead. That he is gone. And we clearly see that Shino can't deal with that yet. The scene was flipped from the romance stereotype into the psychological trauma one.
And that is pretty much how ALL romantic flags end up in this story.

I think it's undeniable that the author teases on purpose. The covers alone make that very clear. The question is just ... is the teasing a purpose in and on itself, just for teasing's sake so to speak, or is it supposed to lead somewhere?
Het relationships are tough to exclude since crappily done romance is common and can easily happen instantly. The other option is of course just an extension of this entire "letting go" theme, "our feelings for each other are misguided, we need distance/move forward" - whether it then acknowledges some romantic tension or just very close friendliness that kinda spilled over into co-dependency wouldn't matter much.

And of course actual romance between them can't truly be excluded. There's certainly no strict "no, definitely won't happen." moment in it. And, I mean, Stretch certainly looked like it'd go from teasing to actual development (even if it then abandoned ship ^^). I'm sure there's other examples here or there out there. And even if not, someone's bound to do it at some point. So it's not really ... an argument, per se. Just some context.

Personally, I'm not even opposed to a hetero relationship being introduced, because this author has the skill to make it believable (I'm not a yuri Inquisitor). But as we established: Romance is a non-factor in this story until now. It would be rather sudden. It requires serious set-up, unlike the Yuri ship, which can be build on the existing framework.

Although that might sound like blasphemy... perhaps a true unromantic story about sisterhood and loss is not such a bad thing? First and foremost I just want them to deal with their pain and become happy. Hahaha...

Shame there's no real yuri but this is really fucking good. The characters and the world feel so real and the art is consistently great.

Hmmm it feels like the author is keeping the yuri romance within arms length while moveing forward. Alwase leaving a door or two cracked open while pushing forward. Im curious to see how both of them move on.

Why must you do this to me kuzushiro senseiiiii~~~~~~~

The scene was flipped from the romance stereotype into the psychological trauma one.
And that is pretty much how ALL romantic flags end up in this story.

You’ve convinced me, and at this point that’s my take on the whole thing. We keep getting bucketsful of familiar romance/yuri tropes, but the angst in this case is a function of the mutual loss of the brother rather than of suppressed sexual feelings, and the affection/desire to bond is channeled into the desire to be a family (of choice).

What really makes me think that is the striking contrast of the latest chapters with the very parallel situation in My Unrequited Love. Both protagonists feel the need to stop living with their sister-in-law, but Uta’s forthright sexual attraction seems completely different from Shino’s feeling like a burden to Nozomi.

What still is a bit of a puzzle to me is the endgame for a non-romantic trajectory. An angsty final separation doesn’t really square with the tenor of most of the series, but a sit-com-ish “we’ve come to terms with our loss and now can be on cozy regular family terms” outcome seems impossibly low key for the emotional stakes in this one.

Maybe one or the other will stumble into some lesbian bar and a wise and kindly mentor will clue them in about what they’re really looking for.

Their pain is my pain, when they cry I cry too T-T) this is so well done I can't imagine the ending

Their pain is my pain, when they cry I cry too T-T) this is so well done I can't imagine the ending

yea ok whatev
is there yuri or no

Damn Blastaar, I love yuri more than your average yuri fan, but it is rarely, if ever, an example of great manga. Which may be by virtue of the fact that there are only a handful of full time professional artists in the scene. Even still, almost to a one they lack basic understandings of pacing, symbolism, panel manipulation (and just about literally everything Scott McCloud talks about), and general reader experience. They also bring some powerful emotions basically unique to the form, though. That's what has me hooked. But there's nothing going on under the surface in this pop romance/genre fiction (in yuri, that is). Motif play is the farthest it gets, if you want to consider the cliche iceberg of storytelling, and for instance the different meanings of cutting vegetables based on the scene are just baked into Japanese as a high context language.

You're a comic scholar of some shade, right? If this series is one of the best you've seen, I think you should seek some exemplars in the form! Not the old boring stuff though. Just some works that are more aware of how to use panels to manipulate readers, symbols to build larger stories, and ones that are just generally higher quality.

I want to preface that by saying I'm a huge yuri fan and have both an advanced degree in literature and an 800 level comics course under my belt (reader response and reception were my focuses), so I'm not just talking out of my ass. I even got to have lunch with Scott. He doesn't know anything about yuri, but he has read the Rose of Versailles. His knowledge of manga is... Quite dated...

last edited at Oct 21, 2018 4:16AM