People keep saying these characters look like girls, but it appears people aren't looking very much at the art. The author very intentionally draws all these anatomically male characters with lots of musculature in their hands and legs in almost every scene they're in. Those are not the legs/hands of asian women. It's only their faces that look somewhat feminine.

For example: https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/fukakai_na_boku_no_subete_o_ch04#10

In the top panel look at the shoulder positioning and the shape of the hands and elbows. Also in the bottom right panel look at Mogu's legs. The author really intentionally seems to put male musculature everywhere they can manage to do it without increasing the drawing effort too much. If they were drawn to be girls then those would be smooth rounded curves without angular features as that's standard for female anime/manga characters. As a straight guy it was something I noticed right away that these characters are not female body types.

last edited at Sep 15, 2018 10:02AM

Meh. Smells of a love triangle...

https://dynasty-scans.com/system/releases/000/022/031/%5BHachimitsu_Scans%5D_Fukaboku_c05_11.png
That is a one track mind you’ve got there.

Yup, love triangle city, we're riding the express train to get there!
Koto totally bought those shoes just for Mogu, she must have lots of spending cash! I'll bet her feet are a different size eh?
This is exceptionally well written, and the art is terrific too. A real +++

im genuinely crying? man this is such a good damn manga.

People keep saying these characters look like girls, but it appears people aren't looking very much at the art. The author very intentionally draws all these anatomically male characters with lots of musculature in their hands and legs in almost every scene they're in. Those are not the legs/hands of asian women. It's only their faces that look somewhat feminine.

For example: https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/fukakai_na_boku_no_subete_o_ch04#10

In the top panel look at the shoulder positioning and the shape of the hands and elbows. Also in the bottom right panel look at Mogu's legs. The author really intentionally seems to put male musculature everywhere they can manage to do it without increasing the drawing effort too much. If they were drawn to be girls then those would be smooth rounded curves without angular features as that's standard for female anime/manga characters. As a straight guy it was something I noticed right away that these characters are not female body types.

Honestly besides the legs and the elbows, I can see why people say they look like girls. Shoulders aren't so broad that it could be considered boyish/manly. Hands aren't super skinny and feminine but again, aren't super masculine. I say this as an Asian. They aren't so distinguishable that we can really blame people for saying they look like girls.

This is a different type of love triangle from the usual Shoujo bull crap, so I’m interested. Although, Mogu’s friend is definitely screwed. That’s what happens when you’re a mother/big sister-type figure to your love interest. I wonder how Mogu will deal with it. She already seemed pretty alone before the MC guy showed up, so I curious about what their relationship was like beforehand.

last edited at Oct 10, 2018 12:17AM

Well this chapter was garbage. It turned out to be even worse love triangle than I feared. Welp time to drop it then.

Not just love triangle but they're seriously making Mogu a binary trans girl. I liked having a feminine person not having a gender. It makes everyone gay

Is the topic of girlyboys (aka otokonoko) in fashion in Japan at the moment?

The way I see it, the school they attend specifically allows boys and girls to dress with either uniform. Hence, why Mogumo moved to be closer from this school.

We still haven't seen the helper of Mogumo (which may be a girl, a boy, or an otokonoko or whatever).

Anyway, I just can't feel the hype reading this. It's just like Prunus Girl with more questions about gender identity. And less lesbians. And more pseudo drama.

He doesn't want to be either a girl or a boy. But then he's shown as a 100% (flat) cute girl, because "he likes cute clothes". At this point, what makes him NOT a girl externally? How are people supposed to guess that he doesn't want to be considered a girl?

It's like the author makes the whole cast of "girlyboys" really easy to trigger, while the main male lead seem to be the reasonable one (and the bro, but he's a grown up).

This manga is actually everything that is wrong about how gender is perceived in Japan or elsewhere. Everyone is cute and look just like a girl, but by the fiat of the theme, they are actually "boys" (at least genetically).

And the male MC is just some self-insert placeholder with no personality to speak of. The "generic nice guy", like the MC in Prunus Girl, which will eventually fall for the ambiguously gendered character.

About gender identity, Hourou Musuko is a lot more inclusive and well done.

Originally Mogu was agender which means not identifying with any gender but it seems like they are getting rid of that angle.

Not just love triangle but they're seriously making Mogu a binary trans girl. I liked having a feminine person not having a gender. It makes everyone gay

I don't interpret the latest chapter that way. Mogu seems to be trying to force themselves to be a girl because they feel like it'll be easier for other people to accept them that way, and they're clearly uncomfortable with it. I mean, it's possible that the story drops that angle and Mogu is suddenly okay with being a girl, but I think and hope that that's not the way it's going.

Originally Mogu was agender which means not identifying with any gender but it seems like they are getting rid of that angle.

I don't think that the author is getting rid of Mogumo's nonbinary identity. Judging from the last two chapters, Mogu is feeling insecure about their feelings for that guy, and thinks that they have to be more feminine in order to be with him. My guess is that there is going to be a big dramatic moment where main guy tells Mogumo that they don't have to pretend to be anyone else. I had a bad first impression with this manga, but i was pleasantly surprised by it. So I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt.

This is one of the dumbest series on here.

I think is the opposite, one of the smartest. The author has clearly made a lot of search for present something that can help to understand more easily the difference between the agender, the transgender and the crossdresser.
It's educational and entertaining, a little bit as the comic of the famous author Sophie Labelle (which i recommand highly for understand the trans reality).

I really don't understand the point of bothering to identifying oneself as agender to others. Basically, this just means the person has no sense of gender and thus is completely indifferent to gender rolls and what society sees them as, right? So basically if they are completely indifferent and neutral when it comes to the idea of gender then they can pretty much just roll with whatever is easiest and fits the situation best aka if they are physically male they would use the guys bathroom. They would also have no objection to society treating them as male because the entire idea of gender rolls are just meaningless to them.

The only time it might come up is if somebody ever pointed out that the agender guy does more "girly" things than a typical dude, but that is hardly unique to being agender. I'm sure most males have experienced at some point stupid macho ribbing from their peers for doing something that's kind of "sissy." I guess if the guy did something like dress up like a girl there might be a need to explain at times, but if the guy is truly agender he likely wouldn't dress as a girl because he would have no particular desire to act feminine since such a thing is meaningless to him and the fact he would suffer social stigmas would make it less appealing than dressing as a dude since he doesn't care either way.

last edited at Nov 3, 2018 10:06PM

I really don't understand the point of bothering to identifying oneself as agender to others. Basically, this just means the person has no sense of gender and thus is completely indifferent to gender rolls and what society sees them as, right? So basically if they are completely indifferent and neutral when it comes to the idea of gender then they can pretty much just roll with whatever is easiest and fits the situation best aka if they are physically male they would use the guys bathroom. They would also have no objection to society treating them as male because the entire idea of gender rolls are just meaningless to them.

It's not that they see gender roles as meaningless or are indifferent to them but that they don't fit into either male or female. For many agender people, being perceived as male and being perceived as female are both distressing, and they don't want to be thought of or treated as either. To put it another way, it's not that they don't care, but that they care about not being male and they also care about not being female.

last edited at Nov 3, 2018 10:17PM

I really don't understand the point of bothering to identifying oneself as agender to others. Basically, this just means the person has no sense of gender and thus is completely indifferent to gender rolls and what society sees them as, right? So basically if they are completely indifferent and neutral when it comes to the idea of gender then they can pretty much just roll with whatever is easiest and fits the situation best aka if they are physically male they would use the guys bathroom. They would also have no objection to society treating them as male because the entire idea of gender rolls are just meaningless to them.

I'm not agender so Im certainly no authority on this, but I'm pretty sure that's not what agender means. As far as I know agender doesn't mean they are apathetic to gender and just do whatever is most convenient. On the contrary, I've personally only seen two types of ppl use this line of reasoning, cis ppl and trans ppl who are still in denial. Agender ppl can fall anywhere on the spectrum of gender presentation. I'll admit I don't totally understand it either, but that's fine. Agender ppl identifying however they wish doesn't affect me so I'm cool with it even if I don't really understand it.

Lol, sorry LilyBlack, that's the second time in a row I accidentally posted pretty much the same thing right after you. Your's are better written than mine though, much more succinct.

1. Very interesting take on gender identity and issues. It ain't perfect, because just like reality, it never is. People end up confused, uncertain, they overthink things. I'd say the series is nailing that cognitive dissonance quite well.

2. As an amusing side note, I experienced the water splash event in my first year of high school. Complete with the self righteous attitude the perpetrator loved showing off. As they walked away I caught up and dumped my drink bottle on them. I then asked how it felt being so graphically denigrated. The look on their face was priceless. Nobody in my year group tried that stunt for the rest of high school ^_^ .

1. As an amusing side note, I experienced the water splash event in my first year of high school. Complete with the self righteous attitude the perpetrator loved showing off. As they walked away I caught up and dumped my drink bottle on them. I then asked how it felt being so graphically denigrated. The look on their face was priceless. Nobody in my year group tried that stunt for the rest of high school ^_^ .

The childhood friend actually kind of makes me excited to see what happens next. Are they actually gonna tackle transphobic talking points? I hope so, manga rarely deal with things like transphobia.

I really don't understand the point of bothering to identifying oneself as agender to others. Basically, this just means the person has no sense of gender and thus is completely indifferent to gender rolls and what society sees them as, right? So basically if they are completely indifferent and neutral when it comes to the idea of gender then they can pretty much just roll with whatever is easiest and fits the situation best aka if they are physically male they would use the guys bathroom. They would also have no objection to society treating them as male because the entire idea of gender rolls are just meaningless to them.

It's not that they see gender roles as meaningless or are indifferent to them but that they don't fit into either male or female. For many agender people, being perceived as male and being perceived as female are both distressing, and they don't want to be thought of or treated as either. To put it another way, it's not that they don't care, but that they care about not being male and they also care about not being female.

Well first
1. Agender people are trans since they still don't identify as assigned gender.
2. Not always, I don't want to be perceived as male but I am not female. Most of my dysphoria is over not being feminine enough but I find the idea of checking a box for gender so obnoxious, I don't participate in gender.
3. One reason the insistence on only writing trans women being with cis men is toxic, is that we aren't all straight. I'm a trans lesbian and proud. And trust me that's the vast majority of trans literature written by cis people

last edited at Nov 4, 2018 2:59AM

TransHomura posted:

Well first
1. Agender people are trans since they still don't identify as assigned gender.

That is spreading meaning of trans so thin though. I really dislike how meaning of trans got changed to "not identifying with assigned gender" and I find the split between cis and trans obnoxious in the first place. Saying someone who is agender is trans is really muddying the meaning of the word and making it harder on actual trans people as well as other people who want to try to understand it.

1. Not always, I don't want to be perceived as male but I am not female. Most of my dysphoria is over not being feminine enough but I find the idea of checking a box for gender so obnoxious, I don't participate in gender.
2. One reason the insistence on only writing trans women being with cis men is toxic, is that we aren't all straight. I'm a trans lesbian and proud.

So which is it then? You first write as if you're agender, but then you say you have dysphoria over not being feminine enough, but then you say you don't "participate" in gender, but then you write you're a trans woman. Those things don't go hand in hand. You can't identify with neither gender, but at the same time call yourself a trans lesbian. So you're a woman or not?

I understand that being agender is a identity. You're identifying as something other than man or woman and being shoved into one of those 2 categorizes can feel uncomfortable. You want people to treat you as neither, because you are just you. That being said I'm sure there are people who don't really care how they are perceived by others, so not necessary all agender people will want to be treated as neutral as possible and feel rejected if they aren't.

I really dislike how meaning of trans got changed to "not identifying with assigned gender."

Yeah uh, gonna go ahead and call that what it is it's transphobic. Transgender very fucking specifically means that you don't identify with the assigned gender at birth. It doesn't matter what the other gender(s) are you are TRANSITIONING into them. And you know what hurts actually trans people more? Bullshit like you're saying.

ThatSuccubusGirl posted:

I really dislike how meaning of trans got changed to "not identifying with assigned gender."

Yeah uh, gonna go ahead and call that what it is it's transphobic. Transgender very fucking specifically means that you don't identify with the assigned gender at birth. It doesn't matter what the other gender(s) are you are TRANSITIONING into them. And you know what hurts actually trans people more? Bullshit like you're saying.

Yea, you just proved my point. Trans used to be just shortcut of transgender and meaning someone who don't identify with their assigned gender and wants to transition to opposite one (or already did so). Agender people are perfectly fine with their actual body and don't want to transition to anything so in no way they are trans. But because word trans nowadays just means "don't like their birth gender" everyone uses it and it can mean whatever.

ThatSuccubusGirl posted:

I really dislike how meaning of trans got changed to "not identifying with assigned gender."

Yeah uh, gonna go ahead and call that what it is it's transphobic. Transgender very fucking specifically means that you don't identify with the assigned gender at birth. It doesn't matter what the other gender(s) are you are TRANSITIONING into them. And you know what hurts actually trans people more? Bullshit like you're saying.

Yea, you just proved my point. Trans used to be just shortcut of transgender and meaning someone who don't identify with their assigned gender and wants to transition to opposite one (or already did so). Agender people are perfectly fine with their actual body and don't want to transition to anything so in no way they are trans. But because word trans nowadays just means "don't like their birth gender" everyone uses it and it can mean whatever.

To be more accurate, “transsexual” used to be used for what you’re describing, the transition from one gender to the other. “Transgender” was, and often still is, a more colloquial umbrella term for all sorts of gender variance. But as this aspect of society becomes more developed, as it has over the past decade or so especially, one must expect terms to shift and change to better describe the reality we’ve talking about.

Tl;dr It’s okay to use trans to refer to a gender folks.

Well from what I know transsexual and transgender pretty much referred to the same thing, just 1 was first and become outdated and inaccurate when we learned that it wasn't as much sexuality as gender identity so it got changed to transgender to reflect that. I know transgender is used as umbrella term nowadays and that was what I was referring to.

It’s always been used as an umbrella term. That hasn’t changed.