Hey, one question. How I see that this chapter have the tags "transgender" and "yuri", because You is a trans girl so it's yuri if she do it with another girl, I suggest the same tags at this doujinshi, because I thought it was the same but got rejected, so, where you use those tags? I'm asking because I expected the both doujinshi are the same but they aren't to the staff, so I wanna know how to use them :S sorry if I'm making a dumb question, I just wanna learn about this >.<

Normally futanari wouldn't get tagged with Trans and Yuri, but this was a highly specific case where the tags couldn't be decided on, as evidenced by the length of the forum thread on the matter, so it received both pairs of tags for the time being.

@ cowyouto

The art on the front cover reminds me a lot of a different series character (but i can't remember what it was)

First thing that comes to my mind is Haruko from FLCL:

http://i.imgur.com/lWQ6H5I.png

Nah that wasn't it, I think i'm just going crazy tbh. If I'm not its a series/oneshot on DR. :9

@ cowyouto

The art on the front cover reminds me a lot of a different series character (but i can't remember what it was)

First thing that comes to my mind is Haruko from FLCL:

http://i.imgur.com/lWQ6H5I.png

Nah that wasn't it, I think i'm just going crazy tbh. If I'm not its a series/oneshot on DR. :9

Could you be thinking of Pito's series Her Pet?

Hey, one question. How I see that this chapter have the tags "transgender" and "yuri", because You is a trans girl so it's yuri if she do it with another girl, I suggest the same tags at this doujinshi, because I thought it was the same but got rejected, so, where you use those tags? I'm asking because I expected the both doujinshi are the same but they aren't to the staff, so I wanna know how to use them :S sorry if I'm making a dumb question, I just wanna learn about this >.<

Normally futanari wouldn't get tagged with Trans and Yuri, but this was a highly specific case where the tags couldn't be decided on, as evidenced by the length of the forum thread on the matter, so it received both pairs of tags for the time being.

That makes sense, thanks you ^^ and sorry then for sending those tags then. How in that doujinshi in the credit page the team who translate it said that it was a trans Honoka, I thought it would fit >.< and you are right, this thread is very long just for using some tags or others

Anyways - this means that Pito just released a continuation!

Thank you very much. You're the only person that gives light to this thread.
I can't open it tho cuz Mama is just there behind me haha
Anyway, thank you translators for this release.
Will be waiting for more :D

I hope this comment isn't considered too offensive, but as a lesbian Transwoman who thinks that this whole Gender is a social construct theory is only a loophole for heterosexual cisgenders to take part in the whole LGBT-Stuff, I think it is legitimate and would make sense to draw a distinction between the emotional and the sexual/physiscal elements in a work of fiction in the question whether or not Transwoman x Ciswoman is Yuri or not, at least in the case of Pre-Operation Transgenders. When it comes to romance, it should be clear that it is Yuri. A Transwoman is psychologically a woman, and therefore a romantic relationship between Transwoman and Ciswoman are in the end nothing but romantic emotional relationships between two woman, Yuri per definition. In the sexual element, I would say it is hetero. After all, erotic depictions are all about the physical elements of a relationship and with a Transwoman pre-operation it is between a physical man and a physical female. Hetero. There is a reason why we undergo medical treatment that changes our whole natural hormonal balance and surgery that basically mutilates our fully functional natural genitals to make them as similiar to the gender that matches our psychological and emotional sense of self as possible. If I could just happily live as a lesbian woman without all of this I, and possibly most other transgenders, wouldn't do this shit to begin with, sex-change is a pain in the ass, it's certainly not funny and you need to take medication for all of your life, which sucks.

I think ignoring the fact that Transwoman Pre-OP x Ciswoman remains physically still hetero undermines the whole problem that comes with being a Transwoman.

As a trans woman myself, honestly there's nothing trans-related about this. All I see is Age Gap Futa Gender Bender Moderate amounts of sex. People have just latched onto the Futa aspect and treated her as a surrogate for a Transgender woman. Nothing more, nothing less.

So all the trans discussion is mostly ridiculous and pointless in the context of this doujin. Should've mostly been its own separate, unrelated forum post.

Edit P.s. This is all I have to say on this doujin. There's nothing more to say. Don't try to convince me one way or another, you won't get anywhere. I'm not posting anything more on this thread, as reply or otherwise, so don't try to engage me.

(Also, I was asked to comment by one Georgium_Sidus on IRC.)

last edited at Apr 19, 2017 5:54AM

I think ignoring the fact that Transwoman Pre-OP x Ciswoman remains physically still hetero undermines the whole problem that comes with being a Transwoman.

I respect your personal identification with the "trapped in the wrong body" experience of gender identity, but your concern that the problems of trans women are being undermined by lesbians who fail to sufficiently dis-identify with their penis comes across as being based entirely on the offensive, even if well intended, idea of a single, authentic biological female body.

I think ignoring the fact that Transwoman Pre-OP x Ciswoman remains physically still hetero undermines the whole problem that comes with being a Transwoman.

I respect your personal identification with the "trapped in the wrong body" experience of gender identity, but your concern that the problems of trans women are being undermined by lesbians who fail to sufficiently dis-identify with their penis comes across as being based entirely on the offensive, even if well intended, idea of a single, authentic biological female body.

There is a general female body with typical sexual charakteristics. This is the whole reason why most transgenders inherintly wish to change their physical characteristics to the traits that are common among the gender they identify as. I wouldn't even call it an idendity anymore, but really a fundemental part of the sense of self a person has. Gender Dysphoria will be always an issue because it isn't as easily solved as homosexuality, where everything is right as long as the person has the legal fundation to have romantic or sexual relationships with their own gender, it will always need some medical treatment and it will always come with a disruption between the own sense of self and the body one is born with.

And in the context of Manga, it simply makes practical the most sense to distinguish between the romantic and emotional element of a relationship Pre-OP Transwoman x Ciswoman and sexual encounters, simply because most people want to see two physically tradtional female characters when they read erotic literature. In simple terms, nobody is looking forwards to see a penis and testicles when they watch or read lesbian porn. When people watch erotic stuff, the physical element is utterly important and Pre-OP Transwoman and Ciswoman simply doesn't fits the general expectation when somebody is watching this stuff. In such cases, if the character isn't on hormones yet, it is simply hetero because this is what we physically see, in an sexual intercourse between a Pre-OP Transwoman and a Ciswoman, we see nothing but a heterosexual act. If the Transwoman is on hormones and has already breasts and a already more female appereance, it is futanari, because in this cases, in the best case there is no visual difference between a futanari and a transwoman who still has er penis. In cases where the focus is on the emotional element, it's all different. In this case, we have the premise of a non-erotic Yuri, an emotional and romantic relationship between two woman, an approach on a different experience of lesbianism. Like, I don't think anyone would deny that Ayumi and Aika from Mermaid Line is Yuri, the focus is entirely about how Ayumi and Aika, two woman, come together and about their relationship with each other.

Yeah, nothing I'm saying should be taken as invalidating your personal identity, but I also want to note that your characterization of the "inherent" trans experience matches pretty closely to 1960s-1990s discourse on transsexuality. And the rise of transgender terminology in the mid to late 1990s was primarily a response to and rejection of the medicalizing and "passing" - centric emphasis of that earlier discourse. So for a lot of trans folks, the declaration that pre-op and post-op are still important distinctions comes across as both outdated and a willful erasure of their contemporary transgender experiences.

last edited at Apr 20, 2017 5:25AM

M-Ra couldnt be further from the truth in my opinion. Even as a sapphic trans woman who wants to get rid of my junk, to be honest I do find her take pretty offensive. I think saying a trans woman with a penis having sex with a cis woman is inherently heterosexual undermines and invalidates a lot of identities. I do not see a meaningful distinction between that and terfs calling trans women "males" and insisting that it's simply a fact of science. In fact, that some trans women align themselves with terfs is hardly anything new so I honestly shouldn't be as surprised as I am that a trans woman did decide to take a rather transphobic stance.

And if people don't want to see a penis in their lesbian porn there's a great way to avoid that. Tags. A lot of people seem to be under the wildly mistaken impression that if porn with trans women is able to be labeled yuri they simply won't be able to avoid seeing it or they won't know if thats present without reading the manga. Honestly to claim that is simply dishonest. But like also its not like there's a lot of that to begin with? We're kind of a rarity and even futa getting put on this site is rare in the extreme.

Also if you would classify a trans woman on HRT as futanari like I don't even know what to say it's the most blatantly absurd thing I've heard in a long time.

last edited at Apr 19, 2017 8:13PM

Yeah, so gender is a tricky beast, and nothing I'm saying should be taken as invalidating your personal relationship with the bastard, but I also want to note that your characterization of the "inherent" trans experience matches pretty closely to 1960s-1990s discourse on transsexuality. And the rise of transgender terminology in the mid to late 1990s was primarily a response to and rejection of the medicalizing and "passing" - centric emphasis of that earlier discourse. So for a lot of trans folks, the declaration that pre-op and post-op are still important distinctions comes across as both outdated and a willful erasure of their contemporary transgender experiences.

So your pretty much argueing with the arguments of marxists, people who follow an ideology that had its opportunity to shine during the entire 20th century and proved to be an utter failure whenever it was implemented? Or post-modernism, a school of thought that is in itself utterly flawed as it is a simple mean to deny realities and social under the facade of intellectualism without giving giving any proper argumentation for their ideas and that fails in going its way to the consequent end of absolute nihilism, the acceptance of the fact that every morality, ideology and philosophy is in itself nothing but subjective and that an rational person should simply follow the ideas that prove to work best, which would mean the pragmatic synthesis of conservatism and progressivism?

Your argumentation seems to ignore the reality of life of most transgendered people, for whom passing and the medicalization as well as operation to get the typical characteristics of the gender they identify as is the most effective means to fight the psychological damaging symptoms of their gender dysphoria, not because of social pressure but their own quality of life, to live with a better connection between their sense of self and their body? Personally, I would say that the discourse on transsexuality in the past was by far more constructive and connected to the real problem of gender dysphoria than modern discussion, that revolve outside of the hard scientific fields more around ideas like that penises and vaginas don't exist, but are some evil fantasy constructs made up by some evil conspiracy of men.

M-Ra couldnt be further from the truth in my opinion.

The terms Opinion and Truth should only be used exclusive from each other. Whenever it comes to opinions, there is no truth.

Even as a sapphic trans woman who wants to get rid of my junk, to be honest I do find her take pretty offensive. I think saying a trans woman with a penis having sex with a cis woman is inherently heterosexual undermines and invalidates a lot of identities. I do not see a meaningful distinction between that and terfs calling trans women "males" and insisting that it's simply a fact of science. In fact, that some trans women align themselves with terfs is hardly anything new so I honestly shouldn't be as surprised as I am that a trans woman did decide to take a rather transphobic stance.

At first, please don't assume my political stance as I would consider myself far away from terms by virtue of being not a feminist but an egalitarian.

Second, in terms of erotic or pornographic art, no there is no way the explicit sexual depiction of a person with a person with a apparent male body with a person with a apparent female body could be considered lesbianism. The emotional part, yeah, where it is about the emotions a woman has for another woman, but when it comes to purely physical depictions? I would say even if it get tagged lesbian or yuri, there should be still a het warning, as, what is visible, is the depiction of a heterosexual intercourse. A visibly male body has sex with a visibly female body, although I don't can't really see a context where a lesbian would do something like that. And I would argue against the defamation of being transphobic, but my identity got so much overtaken by ideologues that I absolutely don't know whats transphobic and what not. Is it transphobic if I say that I consider myself not truly woman until I get the operation and refuse sexual relationships during this times, as these would make me feel uncomfortable as I'm sexually a lesbian? Is it transphobic to want simply to be a girl? Is it transphobic that I don't acknowledge all those Transtrenders from Tumblr? Is my mother who accepted me as who I am transphobic because she refers to me still with male pronouns? Am I transphobic because I am currently okay with this, as I'm grudgingly accept the current reality of my body?

And if people don't want to see a penis in their lesbian porn there's a great way to avoid that. Tags. A lot of people seem to be under the wildly mistaken impression that if porn with trans women is able to be labeled yuri they simply won't be able to avoid seeing it or they won't know if thats present without reading the manga. Honestly to claim that is simply dishonest. But like also its not like there's a lot of that to begin with? We're kind of a rarity and even futa getting put on this site is rare in the extreme.

Also if you would classify a trans woman on HRT as futanari like I don't even know what to say it's the most blatantly absurd thing I've heard in a long time.

Then explain me the actual difference between a Futanari/Hermaphrodit/Shemale and a Transwoman on HRT Pre-OP. Being a Futanari during this time sounds like a small price, at it means at least that everything but the genitalia looks natural.

Rarely comment always lurk signed on to say:

Don't wanna join the dumb rant train because /u/ is complaining about it too.

Futanari the person got tits and most likely has a vagina too. Unless the author has stated this was a transgendered manga. I do not think so.. Futanari not equal to trans-

just because dressing like a (tom)boy like most "yuri" manga means nothing. Enjoy another translation and stop gabbering about ideologies and what you think is politically correct. That's a completely irrelevant to the manga.

EDIT: doujin not manga

last edited at Apr 19, 2017 10:12PM

The terms Opinion and Truth should only be used exclusive from each other. Whenever it comes to opinions, there is no truth.

the truth is that your opinion is bad

At first, please don't assume my political stance as I would consider myself far away from terms by virtue of being not a feminist but an egalitarian.

i mean terfs arent feminists either so like youd fit right in lol

Second, in terms of erotic or pornographic art, no there is no way the explicit sexual depiction of a person with a person with a apparent male body with a person with a apparent female body could be considered lesbianism. The emotional part, yeah, where it is about the emotions a woman has for another woman, but when it comes to purely physical depictions? I would say even if it get tagged lesbian or yuri, there should be still a het warning, as, what is visible, is the depiction of a heterosexual intercourse. A visibly male body has sex with a visibly female body, although I don't can't really see a context where a lesbian would do something like that.

your insistence that a penis means male is pretty weak and in a thread where people have talked about gender and about biological essentialism you aren't doing any intellectual labor

your argument is lazy

And I would argue against the defamation of being transphobic

the things you said were transphobic and will be called such

but my identity got so much overtaken by ideologues that I absolutely don't know whats transphobic and what not. Is it transphobic if I say that I consider myself not truly woman until I get the operation and refuse sexual relationships during this times, as these would make me feel uncomfortable as I'm sexually a lesbian?

I mean if you don't consider yourself a girl that's fine. it's none of my business how you perceive yourself.

Is it transphobic that I don't acknowledge all those Transtrenders from Tumblr?

this statement by you is actually super fuckin transphobic

insisting other people aren't really trans is policing the identities of others and fucked all to hell

in fact i'd go so far as to say its even worse than the other transphobic shit you said

Is my mother who accepted me as who I am transphobic because she refers to me still with male pronouns?

If you want to be addressed with female pronouns then yes. If you yourself still accept male pronouns then not necessarily. If she refers to other trans women with male pronouns then yes she is transphobic.

Am I transphobic because I am currently okay with this, as I'm grudgingly accept the current reality of my body?

You can be okay with whatever you want /for yourself/. You're dictating that other women's bodies are "male" because of their genitalia and saying the sex they have with other women is heterosexual. That is the fucked up transphobic part.

Then explain me the actual difference between a Futanari/Hermaphrodit/Shemale and a Transwoman on HRT Pre-OP. Being a Futanari during this time sounds like a small price, at it means at least that everything but the genitalia looks natural.

okay so you're just straight up using fucking slurs right now and also don't know anything what you're talking about.

futa porn comes in two types: vagina and dick or balls and dick. The former case would relate to intersex bodies more than trans bodies. The latter case does seem to be a fetishizing of trans women but when you get into the nitty gritty of it a lot of the time the girl has this equipment either cuz she was born with it but developed breasts on her own or she just magically got a dick.

I would say the /idea/ behind both varieties of futa is "well what if a cis girl had a dick." From that angle I'd say futa actually contributes to a real problem of trans women not getting to exist in drawn porn. I'd say /most/ futa doesn't represent trans women either cuz of the whole ambiguous genitalia thing or simply because that runs contrary to the fantasy being crafted. The artists actively don't /want/ to acknowledge the reality of trans women with their art. They want their girls with dicks to be cisgender.

Now, getting a bit personal. I've worked as a camgirl. And what you and most terfs probably wouldn't believe is that the men who came to my camshows to watch? Most of them were straight. In fact I'd wager literally any trans girl who has worked porn or camshows or does photoshoots for a living will confirm for you that our biggest fans are straight men. So, if straight men are interested in us as women. Women with dicks but still women. Then why wouldn't there be lesbian women who feel the same way? And if the men and women who are attracted to us are attracted to us as women, then wouldn't our sex with men be straight and our sex with women be gay? The women who are into us are generally not looking for a guy.

I doubt I can convince you to change your mind and I don't really consider it a big loss. But maybe what I've said will be of benefit to someone else. At least, that's the hope.

WOW! 14 pages of drama about tags and the politics of sexuality. I wanted to compliment on a doujin about a cute trans girl, but I don't know if that's a good idea now...

Edit: Also, did anyone else notice that this forum is called the "Going off Course Discussion." Appropriate!

last edited at Apr 20, 2017 12:09AM

So, if straight men are interested in us as women. Women with dicks but still women. Then why wouldn't there be lesbian women who feel the same way?

Because lesbians ain't looking for dicks, no?

last edited at Apr 20, 2017 12:24AM

So, if straight men are interested in us as women. Women with dicks but still women. Then why wouldn't there be lesbian women who feel the same way?

Because lesbians ain't looking for dicks, no?

If yer a lesbian whose sexuality is actually only based on genitals, the implication is that you'd be fine with a guy as long as he had a vagina.

I mean if we're policing people's identities... between a woman who loves women regardless of their genitals and a woman who's fine with dating men so long as they have the equipment she likes, I know which one I'd say is the bigger lesbian.

If yer a lesbian whose sexuality is actually only based on genitals, the implication is that you'd be fine with a guy as long as he had a vagina.

uh...no. My sexuality is not based only on the genitals. I want everything and genitals are included. And I don't think any lesbian would want a penis, even if it's a woman who owns the penis, because that is not how lesbian works. A lot already have problem with toys. Maybe you actually mean Pansexuals, not Lesbians.

I mean if we're policing people's identities

Maybe it's you, not we.

Also, personally, I don't get why this is tagged as a trans doujin, it's never presented as such, if anyone look at Pito's futa works it's more than clear that this is just his usual work where some girl having a penis is something normal, not to mention he tagged it himself as a futa doujin.

last edited at Apr 20, 2017 12:58AM

If yer a lesbian whose sexuality is actually only based on genitals, the implication is that you'd be fine with a guy as long as he had a vagina.

uh...no. My sexuality is not based only on the genitals. I want everything and genitals are included. And I don't think any lesbian would want a penis, even if it's a woman who owns the penis, because that is not how lesbian works. A lot already have problem with toys. Maybe you actually mean Pansexuals, not Lesbians.

I'd know some lesbians who'd strongly disagree with you

I mean if yer a lesbian i'm not gonna say you have to be into dicks but if you say that being a lesbian means you can't be into women who happen to have dicks thats where i take issue

And I don't think any lesbian would want a penis, even if it's a woman who owns the penis, because that is not how lesbian works. A lot already have problem with toys. Maybe you actually mean Pansexuals, not Lesbians.

There's a good post on the Gender Analysis blog that talks about this very issue.

Heather: The purpose of identifying as a lesbian is to give people around me a shorthand introduction to the social aspects of my sexual orientation. When I say I am a lesbian, then my friends won’t try to set me up with guys, men (hopefully) will know that I don’t intend to date them, and people will generally understand that I fit into a demographic of people who are financially and socially marginalized and only recently gained equal marriage rights. These are useful tidbits of information that differentiate me from my heterosexual peers in ways that let them know what to expect and when it might be a good idea to exercise sensitivity. It’s even more useful when I’m looking for romantic and sexual partners. Calling myself bi or pansexual as I’m often expected to do would complicate the usefulness of this shorthand. I am interested in women and only women. An omnisexual identity does not describe me.

About some lesbians dating trans men... there are historical reasons for that, many people we would now call trans men first identified as butch and belonged to the butch community. I might think of it as bi and not lesbian, but it's ultimately their and their partner's business how they identify and not mine.

Otherwise, what Vivian said.

last edited at Apr 20, 2017 1:40AM

I would close this thread if I could, because once in a while someone will come and say "lol X ain't Y" and we'll have 3 more pages going off course.

People full of certainties about the truth are the most dangerous ones.

That's how wars of religions are started.

last edited at Apr 20, 2017 2:32AM

Telling other trans women they're shitty compared to "real" women, particularly telling that to women on this site who have already been super open about their struggles with self-loathing from internalized transphobia, is both vicious and super boring. I wish you could have contented yourself with just critiquing Futa, albeit a terf's critique of futa, and left out the tedious judgment of trans women for not hating themselves enough. Ugh, this was a bad call Cryssoberyl.

last edited at Apr 20, 2017 5:13AM