That being said, I won't disagree that morinaga's characters could try and google "homosexuality in the 21st century" once in a while

That seems to be true for lots of characters in lots of yuri, one-shot and otherwise.

I mean, look at Yamada in Kase-san. Not only does she seem to be completely oblivious to girl-on-girl sex at the age of 17, she seems to have never been exposed to any kind of sexuality whatsoever. You get the feeling that she has never been sexually aroused in her life, and that she has somehow managed to totally avoid any and all depictions of sexuality in media for 17 years. And yet Kase-san is widely loved. (I think it helps that Kase-san herself is just straight up and unapologetically gay as shit.)

She's not the only one, but she's the one who comes to mind first for me. I've only been reading yuri since October, but I have already seen the "but we're both girls!" trope a few dozen times already.

As long as the cliches are done well, I don't mind them. Just like I occasionally want a cheeseburger despite there being absolutely nothing innovative or revolutionary about a cheeseburger. And I think Morinaga does these cliches well. I really do feel like Hana and Hina are in love with each other, because of all the details Morinaga puts in to sell it.

I mean, contrast this with Out of the Blue! Now, OotB! is one of my favorite stories here because of its emotional resolution in chapter 3. I really do like it a great deal. But before the emotional resolution in chapter 3, I wasn't sold on the notion that Risa really loved Kazumi. It was all tell, no show. Risa loves Kazumi. How do we know? Because Risa says so. And I'm not at all sold on the idea that Kazumi loves Risa. Not because I disbelieve the author when she puts those words in Kazumi's mouth, but again it's all tell, no show.

Morinaga sells it. And that's why I like this series so much.

I think the main issue people here have about Morinaga specyficall, is not whatevere she does those cliches or not, but that she repeats them in every of her work. Ok all her works are well done etc, but so what? When you pick another manga you want to read new story, not rehash of old one. I think the best example is Dan Brown. His books are good and all, but all of them follow the same exact pattern and while plots etc. are indeed different, the basic of the plot progression, resolution, characters, they all use the exact same templates every time, after reading 1-2 of his books you start to realize it and you are no longer impressed or surprised by anything he writes.

last edited at Jan 23, 2017 9:26AM

I think the main issue people here have about Morinaga specyficall, is not whatevere she does those cliches or not, but that she repeats them in every of her work. Ok all her works are well done etc, but so what? When you pick another manga you want to read new story, not rehash of old one.

So don't pick up anything else from Morinaga?

I mean, if I want to eat something new and innovative, I'm not going to order a Quarter Pounder at McDonald's and then bitch about it.

Just seems like there's a great deal of self-inflicted pain here. Some of the people I see complaining about chapter 13 of this story have been bitching about the story for the 12 previous chapters. Did they really think they would suddenly like this chapter after hating all the rest?

At some point the burden is on you to not expose yourself to things you know you won't like.

Having worked on this manga for over half a year, I must say that even if we are not the ones writing the actual manga, it is definitely disheartening to come to the forum when the majority of comments are negative. We'll finish what we started, of course, but damn am I glad we have other projects too... (Though people seem to hate on the Himitsu, Hitotsu anthology too...)

Having worked on this manga for over half a year, I must say that even if we are not the ones writing the actual manga, it is definitely disheartening to come to the forum when the majority of comments are negative. We'll finish what we started, of course, but damn am I glad we have other projects too... (Though people seem to hate on the Himitsu, Hitotsu anthology too...)

Ahh.. I am so glad and happy that this manga is picked up and translated into English.
Morinaga sensei is the first yuri mangaka that introduced me to the world of Yuri. I can't get enough the flufiness and moe artwork that she has delivered.
There are cliché in her works but to me it's more of a "signature "or "trademark "of hers.

Her manga never fails to make me smile with tears at the end.
Thank you so much for not dropping this and keeps scanlating + translating for us. ^^

I can't wait to see both of them finally realize their feelings and get together already xD

I think Morinaga is now of a sort of somewhat older generation of yuri author where this stuff resonates with her. Just as Konno decided not to have her girls have cellphones (because "we just had pagers.") in Maria-sama ga Miteru, Morinaga chooses to have her girls in "I don't want her to think I'm weird because I like girls" mode. That's one way she creates tension. also she looked back to the Story S stuff, it's her style. I like it, and I accept that her characters tend to be good-hearted but a little unwise about their feelings. I think girls like Morinaga Milk and Hakamada Mera could still identify with this trope.

By the way, Secret Recipe didn't have much of this, right? She created the tension there by one main character lying to the other one and getting trapped in it. Ditto the Princess's Mirror. So that's her other go-to tension creator. Writing romance is actually trickier than you think, the cliches are hard to avoid, regardless if it's hetero, yuri, or, I would guess, yaoi.

last edited at Jan 23, 2017 12:29PM

@Marion Diabolito
I don't know her exact age, but her first work that I know of was published in -95, so I would imagine she is in her late thirtees at the youngest.

Having worked on this manga for over half a year, I must say that even if we are not the ones writing the actual manga, it is definitely disheartening to come to the forum when the majority of comments are negative. We'll finish what we started, of course, but damn am I glad we have other projects too... (Though people seem to hate on the Himitsu, Hitotsu anthology too...)

I don't know what to say, some of us absolutely love it and are completely thrilled whenever we see her name - also a majority of comments doesn't mean a majority of commentERS. I, for one, am very grateful you're translating it, and that the series didn't abruptly end, I am 100% involved and invested in their story.

I don't know if you translated Secret Recipe, but I want to say I translated it for myself before reading it here and the translation I saw here was really impressive. I caught so many things I hadn't gotten out of it reading it on my own.

Anyway, I think it's some people's pet peeve, all the cliches of Yuri romance. I would say people should try writing romance sometime, it's harder than it looks :)

last edited at Jan 23, 2017 2:52PM

@Marion Diabolito
I don't know her exact age, but her first work that I know of was published in -95, so I would imagine she is in her late thirtees at the youngest.

yes, and I am also thinking in terms of mangaka generations and their mentality. she's friends with Hakamada Mera (we know that cuz she drew herself and Mera on a picnic or somethng once). so that dates her.

@Marion Diabolito
I don't know her exact age, but her first work that I know of was published in -95, so I would imagine she is in her late thirtees at the youngest.

yes, and I am also thinking in terms of mangaka generations and their mentality. she's friends with Hakamada Mera (we know that cuz she drew herself and Mera on a picnic or somethng once). so that dates her.

And she went to see the Madoka Rebellion -movie with her. I ship them. xD

@Marion Diabolito
I have not worked on any scanlations before Malibu and I started Kouyuri, last summer, so your praise goes to someone else. x)

This hate over cliches and tropes is just so god damn annoying. I just have to wonder why other series are immune to this. I mean A Kiss and a White Lilly is just a series of cliche couples one after another and yet you see no such whining over there. Even Bloom into You can be summed up into the cliche of friends with benefits having trouble when they start actually falling in love, a story told plenty with het couples and even in Sunstone, and yet people here are in love with the series. Kase-san is just tomboy and girly girl dealing with the same old high school romance issues, dealing with exes and trying to get into the same college. All these are cliche ridden but you won't see people complain about them every single release.

People need to realize that stories these days are nothing but a series of old tropes, only difference is the combination and how you blend these tropes together.

And the people specifically complaining about Morinaga has me even more baffled. Acting like the Secret Recipe doesn't start with the MC's making out, or in the Secret Princess where the MCs make their relationship public before they were actually dating. Acting like she just does the same story over and over again is dishonest at best.

This crying specifically after chapter 13's release about Hina's denial is kind of infuriating seeing as how the last 13 chapters are filled with her insecurity about people knowing her true self. Couple that with her friends badmouthing lesbians in chapter 6 and it makes perfect sense that she would lie. But I guess that just flew over a lot of people's heads. Some even act like Hina is lying to herself, these people need to reread the series because they have obviously forgotten most of it.

I wish people would get the concept that you can criticize something without hating it. And that not every time someone is annoyed at a trope that is a condemnation of the entire work.

@Cannibal: Not every trope is annoying and plenty are only annoying when they get used frequently. Also bloom into you friends with benefits? Benefits indicates precisely what they don't have in their relationship.

Edit:Btw in my opinion the "everything is tropes" thing relies on over generalization partly of the descriptions but more importantly of the word trope. Not everything that has ever happened in another work before qualifies as trope, sure for everything someone writes someone else has written something similar before (depending on how much abstraction you apply) especially if it is about basic human interactions but I don't think that is sufficient to label it a trope

last edited at Jan 23, 2017 4:13PM

I wish people would get the concept that you can criticize something without hating it. And that not every time someone is annoyed at a trope that is a condemnation of the entire work.

@Cannibal: Not every trope is annoying and plenty are only annoying when they get used frequently. Also bloom into you friends with benefits? Benefits indicates precisely what they don't have in their relationship.

The fact that there's so much repeated criticism says otherwise. This is the most "I'm normal" story Morinaga has done since Girl Friends and yet people act like that all she ever writes. The amount of backlash shows that it isn't just normal criticism

Morinaga doesn't even use the trope as much as people are claiming and yet here we are with the complaints.

And specifically about Bloom Into You their relationship is nothing but benefits, Nanami gets the benefit of being able to make out with Yuu whenever she wants and expects Yuu to never fall in love with her. Yuu thinks that if she does fall in love then it will ruin what they have. That's classic romance drama of friends with benefits.

last edited at Jan 23, 2017 4:08PM

The fact that there's so much repeated criticism says otherwise.

I don't think that fact shows anything of that kind, but lets leave it at that since I don't think anything interesting would come from continuing

If its not sex I don't consider it friends with benefits but yes I guess they do that much, forgot about that for a moment. that aside I could just describe the story in another way.

There were three series that led me to reading "yuri" manga: Girlfriends, Aoi Hana and Sasameki Koto. The literary quality of all three was just stunning. Later I found Octave and Watashi Sekai O... and some of Hakamada's and Jin's stuff and I decided this genre had the best writing I'd seen in ages.

that aside I could just describe the story in another way.

That's my point, you can either talk about the details of the story or you can do what a lot of people here are and break it down to its most basic parts. It's the difference between complaining that this story uses the "gay in denial" trope and discussing how it uses that trope as opposed to other stories. I rather see people complaining about how a trope is implemented rather than whining that it's there in the first place. I would probably still try to counter argue but it would be a lot more tolerable.

last edited at Jan 23, 2017 4:44PM

Having worked on this manga for over half a year, I must say that even if we are not the ones writing the actual manga, it is definitely disheartening to come to the forum when the majority of comments are negative. We'll finish what we started, of course, but damn am I glad we have other projects too... (Though people seem to hate on the Himitsu, Hitotsu anthology too...)

For what its wort, I love the Himitsu, Hitotsu Anthology, and TBH when I saw you guys where going to traslate Hana and Hina Volume 3, I was so happy I literally cryed of happiness (i know it may sound weird, but yeah I was THAT happy)
I know there's lots of ppl who complains about this manga and Morinaga in general (specially here on Dinasty), but, please, for the rest of us, don't let that get to you.
Sadly some ppl prefer to rant about something that enjoy it.
Keep up the good work, and remember, there's also tons of ppl who enjoy this.

last edited at Jan 23, 2017 9:32PM

I love this. Hana is just so adorable.

Having worked on this manga for over half a year, I must say that even if we are not the ones writing the actual manga, it is definitely disheartening to come to the forum when the majority of comments are negative. We'll finish what we started, of course, but damn am I glad we have other projects too... (Though people seem to hate on the Himitsu, Hitotsu anthology too...)

Don't get me wrong, I love Morinaga. I feel that he(?) is one of the best in the business. Some of my comments earlier in this thread may have made it seem like I hate this manga for the turn it took, but that really wasn't at all my intent. In fact, I wouldn't be here this far into it if I didn't like it. My execution in expressing that was terrible, but that's totally my fault. I truly do love it, and I intend to buy it when Seven Seas gets around to releasing it.

Clichés may be tiresome, but they do serve a purpose so it's hard to get too irritated at them. Maybe. :P It's true, though, I wasn't a fan of this latest usage, yet that's only because I felt the story was going to move beyond it with the characters overtly saying (to themselves, yes) that they loved the other (or close to it in Hana's case). That it took that step backward may reflect the unfortunately heteronormative reality we live in, as others have surely said in more eloquent terms than I, but it surprised the hell out of me.

To the point: I would hate even more to see you and your team shy away from doing more of Morinaga's work. If I in any way made you think that I didn't appreciate your work in bringing it to us, I apologize.

last edited at Jan 24, 2017 12:11AM

Marion Diabolito posted:

There were three series that led me to reading "yuri" manga: Girlfriends, Aoi Hana and Sasameki Koto. The literary quality of all three was just stunning. Later I found Octave and Watashi Sekai O... and some of Hakamada's and Jin's stuff and I decided this genre had the best writing I'd seen in ages.

Girl Friends is actually the manga that made me realize there was a lot more to this genre than just shitty story-less hentai.

And personally I think the complaints about cliched things in her works is kinda strange. It's always been cliched. And it being cliched doesn't make it bad. It's a cliche used badly that makes it bad. It being a cliche in the first place just means that it was used frequently enough to become commonplace in the genre, nothing more and nothing less than that. Morinaga Milk tends to use those cliched tropes pretty well though.

Marion Diabolito posted:

There were three series that led me to reading "yuri" manga: Girlfriends, Aoi Hana and Sasameki Koto. The literary quality of all three was just stunning. Later I found Octave and Watashi Sekai O... and some of Hakamada's and Jin's stuff and I decided this genre had the best writing I'd seen in ages.

Girl Friends is actually the manga that made me realize there was a lot more to this genre than just shitty story-less hentai.

And personally I think the complaints about cliched things in her works is kinda strange. It's always been cliched. And it being cliched doesn't make it bad. It's a cliche used badly that makes it bad. It being a cliche in the first place just means that it was used frequently enough to become commonplace in the genre, nothing more and nothing less than that. Morinaga Milk tends to use those cliched tropes pretty well though.

This.

Part of the thing with a lot of yuri, especially the yuri that Morinaga writes, is that it's aimed at a relatively young age range, it's for teens and young adults, this ain't josei. And stories for that kind of age range don't -really- tend to innovate a ton, not because they suck necessarily, but because a new audience is constantly coming of age and experiencing these things for the first time themselves and want to read fiction that speaks to their experiences.

Hana and Hina is still that basic sort of yuri story structure of girl meets girl, there's confusion over whether they like each other or not, and it'll no doubt end with them starting to date. But it's still going to speak to its readers about dealing with fears of coming out, not being sure if someone you like will be homophobic towards you if they find out, and trying to maintain a public image versus being true to what you like. And where once yuri dealt with these issues in a very roundabout "oh it's just adolescence!", winkwink kind of way, writers like Morinaga shifted that into being much more undisguised in its sexual themes and romances.

Granted Morinaga is now starting to get outdone by a whole new generation of even more explicitly queer mangaka, but that's more a demonstration of how quickly the younger generation's culture is changing in regards to homosexuality than it is that Morinaga is like, hopelessly behind the times or something. And for a lot of people in less progressive areas Morinaga's work is still going to speak to them.