I'm loving Kaoru more and more :D

I cant unsee the last page though...looool

I feel like most of you are biased about Kaoru because you got invested in the Shizuka/Mio pairing from all the earlier chapters with just them. Yes, she is absolutely abusing her effortless charm and BWOC status to try to seduce Shizuka again, but why not? She knows that the woman she loves got away due to her selfishness and feels (right or wrong) that a direct push past Shizuka's barriers is the way to get her back. In her mind Mio (Ichinose, The Kohai, whatever) is just a distraction, a plaything, a little girl who's not playing in the big leagues with them.

Now, it's pretty clear we're supposed to read deeper feelings than that for Mio on Shizuka's part, but I feel like in a different context you'd be rooting for Kaoru. Shizuka and Mio aren't married or even dating, and Kaoru wants her woman back. :3

(I mean, we know that won't happen, because this manga doesn't deal in that deep of drama if the younger girl is spurned... but then again, Kaoru will bring the drama herself if she's ultimately totally rejected, and there's no one else on the horizon for her - I don't think she'd seriously consider a relationship with Mayu or any younger girl, she just likes to exercise her powers on them)

(And yes, I think the Kaoru character is fantastic - she is bringing a lot to the table here. Although my favorite pair is Mari and Yuu and my favorite character is Miyoshi. :D)

So you admit that she's literally just toying with Mayu for her own amusement and you're still trying to defend her behaviour as totally acceptable? If you hurt someone so badly that they break up with you you do NOT get to do this to them. It is not okay, it is not fair, and it is incredibly cruel and selfish. I don't root for cheaters. You don't get to have someone back after you spent your entire relationship with them showing how much you value your own immediate gratification above their emotional well being.

Kaoru gets the plot rolling. Ichinose will have to grow out of her idolizing of Shizuka. Shizuka is always too perfect in Ichinose's eyes, she has to learn to also accept Shizuka's past.
But it can also go either way. I mean, we haven't see how far back Shizuka and Kaoru's history. Let's just enjoy the ride and judge her after the conclusion they end up with.

So you admit that she's literally just toying with Mayu for her own amusement and you're still trying to defend her behaviour as totally acceptable? If you hurt someone so badly that they break up with you you do NOT get to do this to them. It is not okay, it is not fair, and it is incredibly cruel and selfish. I don't root for cheaters. You don't get to have someone back after you spent your entire relationship with them showing how much you value your own immediate gratification above their emotional well being.

I'm not sure how old you are, but based on this comment I'm going to guess you are fairly young and naive about the way people and relationships work. People, especially teenagers, make mistakes, they change, and especially after something like a significant breakup may find their values, wants, and needs no longer match their lifestyle. I have had many friends who got back together after a breakup due to mutually re-evaluating their priorities and behavior. "Don't know what you've got 'till it's gone," as they say.

I'm not sure why you think "get to do" and "fair" enter into this. She doesn't automatically get anything, and she's not prevented from doing anything. If she still wants Shizuka she's free to pursue her as she sees fit. That doesn't mean Shizuka has to accept her advances or return her feelings. There's no "one strike" rule in relationships; if there were, pretty much every relationship ever would be over before it began.

Kaoru isn't toying with Mayu in any malicious way. She's just flirting, because she likes the control and the admiration. Some people like to flirt. She's not doing anything different than any other "ultra-cool upperclassman" character, dealing with campus celebrity and making the underclassmen feel good. Also, Mayu is straight. It's strictly akogare with her, as far as we've seen.

I'm not saying you have to "root for" her. Like whichever pairing you want! I was just expressing an opinion that I think people aren't giving Kaoru a fair shake because they are invested in the established Shizuka/Mio pair, whereas if the story were told differently - i.e. starting with the Shizuka/Kaoru relationship and then breakup, some might feel different.

last edited at Apr 21, 2016 10:51AM

I'm not a teenager and I think Kaoru's behaviour is shitty and Shizuka was right to call her on it. I get the impression it wasn't a one strike rule with Shizuka, but she finally reached the end of her tether and couldn't deal with her behaviour anymore.

love this recent chapter Kaoru really brings the drama. There's really a lot to be interested in with the Kaoru Shizuka plotline and it's about the only one where you don't know what'll happen next. Would love to see more of them

This Shizuka-senpai always gives me the butterflies

And please Great God Torajirou, let kouhai-chan be happy :(

last edited at Apr 21, 2016 1:21PM

I have to echo Tamahime's sentiment. Beyond that, I generally like characters who make awful mistakes, and are willing to damn themselves further to put things 'right', when it would be so much easier to show contrition and seek approval.

Such archetypes instantly draw sympathy from me because I've made mistakes as well. These darker characters feel human while more perfect characters feel half-formed, or half-grown.

Also, there's a real draw to women who know how to be cruel. Because not only can they be cruel to you, they can be cruel for you. That can be a real asset when life throws terrible things your way, and you're not equipped to deal. Which partner is the more decent and deserving often takes a backseat to practical need and chemistry.

That said, I hope Ichinose meets this challenge. I don't want to see the poor little kouhai crushed.

THIS IS THE PERFECT SANDWICH!!

xD

I feel like most of you are biased about Kaoru because you got invested in the Shizuka/Mio pairing from all the earlier chapters with just them. Yes, she is absolutely abusing her effortless charm and BWOC status to try to seduce Shizuka again, but why not? She knows that the woman she loves got away due to her selfishness

And she appears to have no intention of modifying that selfishness in any way. So, she knows if she manages to seduce Shizuka again, Shizuka will just get heartbroken again when she starts cheating all over the place, but she wants to do it anyway. So this is love, is it? No. She doesn't seem to care about Shizuka (or anyone else) as a person, just as a . . . possession, plaything, demonstration of her ability as a seductress. Evidently she has a lot invested in her identity as a seductress, to the point where it really hurts her if she seems to be failing to get someone she covets. Too goddamn bad, bitch.

So you admit that she's literally just toying with Mayu for her own amusement and you're still trying to defend her behaviour as totally acceptable? If you hurt someone so badly that they break up with you you do NOT get to do this to them. It is not okay, it is not fair, and it is incredibly cruel and selfish. I don't root for cheaters. You don't get to have someone back after you spent your entire relationship with them showing how much you value your own immediate gratification above their emotional well being.

I'm not sure how old you are, but based on this comment I'm going to guess you are fairly young and naive about the way people and relationships work.

I'm not sure how old you are, but based on this comment I'm going to guess you are fairly young and naive about the way people and relationships work. In my experience, learning to keep things simple and vanilla is something people tend to learn with age, after they get over the angst, brooding, "cynicism", and complicated relationship diagrams that seem to happen a lot between adolescence and the mid-to-late twenties. Eventually, you learn that that shit mostly just hurts people.

Kaoru is totally voiced by Sawashiro Miyuki in Maria from Arakawa Under the Bridge type voice.

I had to look up a clip for her, but that's a pretty fitting voice for Kaoru. That's almost exactly the voice I give her in my head when I read her lines. lol

Purple Library Guy, I have no idea what you're talking about. At no time did I say anything about angst, brooding, or cynicism at all. Majere expressed a belief that because Kaoru hurt Shizuka in the past that she is branded a cheater and has forfeited all right to try to re-establish a relationship. To wit, "you do NOT get to do this to them. It is not okay, it is not fair, and it is incredibly cruel and selfish." And my point was, in the grown-up world, people hurt each other, people do fucked up stuff. If messing up badly denied people the "right" to mend fences, the way a lot of people with starry-eyed views of love and romance believe (I was in that boat myself once, as a teenager), no relationship would last.

You may feel that her stripes haven't changed and that Shizuka should not fall for it, and that's ok. I'm not saying they should or should not be together. It's an intriguing storyline that I am interested to see play out. I just feel like a lot of the kneejerk hate for Kaoru is coming from an uninformed place.

last edited at Apr 21, 2016 7:19PM

Shit just got real in chapter 68 DAAAMN

Purple Library Guy, I have no idea what you're talking about. At no time did I say anything about angst, brooding, or cynicism at all. Majere expressed a belief that because Kaoru hurt Shizuka in the past that she is branded a cheater and has forfeited all right to try to re-establish a relationship. To wit, "you do NOT get to do this to them. It is not okay, it is not fair, and it is incredibly cruel and selfish." And my point was, in the grown-up world, people hurt each other, people do fucked up stuff. If messing up badly denied people the "right" to mend fences, the way a lot of people with starry-eyed views of love and romance believe (I was in that boat myself once, as a teenager), no relationship would last.

Sorry, guess I somewhat mistook what you were on about. There is a faction of people who diss all stories about functional relationships and all characters who treat one another well on the grounds of them being unrealistic, and they sound vaguely like you were sounding. You still sound a bit like that--"everyone always mistreats each other" sounds kind of cynical to me.
But you are also mistaken. Not everyone fucks up their relationships badly, and many relationships would last without the "right" to mend fences after messing each other up bad. Take for instance--I have never cheated on anyone, or jerked someone around badly when I was in a relationship with them. Just because you do such things doesn't mean everyone does. And sorry, nobody has the "right" to mend fences. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for forgiveness if you hurt someone, and I think it may well be good to grant it, depending. But they don't have to, have no responsibility to, and in my opinion it should be based on sincerity--some combination of "sorry you did that" and "reasonable determination not to do it again". No doubt it's not what you mean, but the way you're talking makes it sound like you expect to just pull crap again. If it's inevitable in the "grown up world" and all.
You do still sound pretty young to me, but the main reason I said that was to see how you would like your own condescending words given back to you. Not much, it would seem. You might want to think about that.

You may feel that her stripes haven't changed and that Shizuka should not fall for it, and that's ok. I'm not saying they should or should not be together. It's an intriguing storyline that I am interested to see play out. I just feel like a lot of the kneejerk hate for Kaoru is coming from an uninformed place.

I don't "feel" that her stripes haven't changed. She says so flat out in no uncertain terms. There isn't even anything to "fall for"--Kaoru makes no faintest pretence at contrition, which is impressive in a way. In ch. 61 where they get into this, she makes it clear, first, that she thinks it's unreasonable for Shizuka to want her not to have others, and second, that she's actually fine with hurting Shizuka.
Shizuka: "Don't you regret it at all? All my feelings towards you, Kaoru, turned into suspicion and jealousy."
Kaoru: "Those are also forms of love! To wants someone for yourself so much that it hurts . . . isn't it romantic?"
A slightly blunter translation would be "I got off on you being jealous and unhappy because it meant you wanted me bad, so no regrets, would totally fuck you up again."
Her position is that Shizuka should just let her keep on doing the stuff she does that hurts Shizuka. There is no nuance or ambiguity about it. I really hope this isn't the kind of fence-mending you think deserves a second chance. Hopefully it's just that you were projecting onto this situation some experiences of your own that don't actually fit.

last edited at Apr 21, 2016 11:45PM

Tamahime:
I'm not sure how old you are, but based on this comment I'm going to guess you are fairly young and naive about the way people and relationships work.

Ouff, regardless of the discussion, that was unfounded, unnecessary and low
Discussing Shizuka's character is pretty interesting, I'm enjoying reading the debate, but personally attacking and patronizing other users is really just unpleasant

last edited at Apr 22, 2016 12:00AM

You are still dealing with absolutes that are not found in what I actually wrote. I never said "everyone always," I said that it does happen. And when it does happen, it is possible for a reasonable person to decide that the relationship is salvageable or more valuable than the broken trust, and give things another shot.

Cheating is also not the only way to hurt someone - I seriously doubt anyone in a long term relationship has never hurt their partner in some way, or been on the cusp of a decision of whether to stay or go over their differences. Saying something cruel in an argument, doing something out of spite, being neglectful of something important to them, to name some examples. There is no such thing as two people who are perfectly compatible. To paraphrase my wife, "falling in love is about finding someone whose bullshit you can tolerate, who can tolerate your bullshit." Everybody has some. Can the pair see all of each other and still make it work? That's what makes it last.

The way I began my original response to Majere had nothing to do with condescension - being young and naive is not to be less than anyone. It was my perception of the place someone is likely to be coming from when they say something like the line I quoted.

That line that Kaoru says certainly is not a point in her favor. But remember that the things people SAY are not always the truth or what they truly feel. She may actually be an open book about this and really be a narcissist. Or it could be a story she tells herself and now is telling Shizuka to romanticise and justify her prior behavior to smooth out that roadblock. She may think (obviously wrongly) that if she humbles herself and isn't a cool and collected goddess she's unlovable.

All it is is that I think she is a more complex character than the people who are all "Nooo~ Shizuka x kohai 4 ever!!!" are entertaining. Her introductory chapter frames her and Shizuka's current relationship on very friendly terms and she is capable of being very kind and supportive to the underclassmen. I also have the benefit of having read her chapters in vol. 6, which I won't spoil here.

If I had to personally speculate on where Kaoru is coming from, I would say, based on the Cleopatra story she tells Mayu, after the breakup she decided she would double down on her ability to charm every girl around her, to be beloved but never love so she couldn't be hurt again. She did not, however, find that as fulfilling as she hoped, and as time has gone on has decided to see if the door is still open a crack for a reunion with the love that she ruined, that she clearly misses. I don't think she's thought about the terms of that reunion much, but has to know on some level that giving up her harem of adorees would be part of the deal, and maybe sees that as a bargaining chip. In reality she's not half as mature as she thinks she is (no teenager is), nor is this love half as important as she thinks it is (really, as much as we d'aww over these pairings, how many people really should be life partners with their crush from when they were 16?)

last edited at Apr 22, 2016 12:38AM

Most love problems could be solved with a simple orgy....just sayin

On a more serious note: I'm a little torn with Kaoru's character. Personally, I don't like the flirtatious types, especially if they actually manage to get multiple girls/guys with their flirting mind games. But reading through the comments i noticed Tamahime makes a good argument. Kaoru realizes she missed out on a great girlfriend like Shizuka and is trying (in her own way) to get her back. I do agree that people should get more chances in a relationship that doesn't go so well the first time, but you can only give a person but so many chances. At that point its best to realize that one should move on in a relationship, forgive but never forget ya know?

You are still dealing with absolutes that are not found in what I actually wrote.

I think you communicate poorly. You overstate your positions, and then it's someone else's fault when they take you at your word.

I never said "everyone always," I said that it does happen. And when it does happen, it is possible for a reasonable person to decide that the relationship is salvageable or more valuable than the broken trust, and give things another shot.

You said, "And my point was, in the grown-up world, people hurt each other, people do fucked up stuff. If messing up badly denied people the "right" to mend fences, the way a lot of people with starry-eyed views of love and romance believe (I was in that boat myself once, as a teenager), no relationship would last." (My emphasis)
Again, taken at face value, this says all (grown-up) relationships involve messing up badly and doing fucked up stuff, and only teenagers with starry-eyed views imagine any relationship could be different. I'm not willing to take responsibility for interpreting your words to mean a more measured thing that you might perhaps mean if I assume you tend to overstate for effect. Your communication is your responsibility, not mine, especially since I don't know you so I can't know when you meant something more sensible than you actually said.

Cheating is also not the only way to hurt someone - I seriously doubt anyone in a long term relationship has never hurt their partner in some way

This strikes me as pushing goalposts rather far. How small does something have to be to qualify? The subject seemed to be big things, the kinds of things Kaoru was pulling, the kinds of things you could reasonably call "fucked up stuff". And in the real adult world, lots of people grow up and don't do that. On the other hand, if you want to talk about the impossibility of complete perfection in a relationship--sure, but then it isn't relevant to people like Kaoru. At the same time, there is the possibility of caring and compassion and thinking about the other person's needs, in a relationship. If there isn't a lot more of that kind of stuff than there is of "bullshit", you're doing it wrong.

The way I began my original response to Majere had nothing to do with condescension

Oh, come on.

That line that Kaoru says certainly is not a point in her favor. But remember that the things people SAY are not always the truth or what they truly feel.

Maybe. Don't care. If she's not going to say anything good, and isn't improving the way she acts, then whatever feelings she may have somewhere deep inside do exactly zero good to anyone--in effect, they're just another layer of narcissism. She is not owed anything here, rather the reverse. We can talk about forgiving her when she does something that in any way represents some kind of remorse, repentance, or restitution.

All it is is that I think she is a more complex character than the people who are all "Nooo~ Shizuka x kohai 4 ever!!!" are entertaining.

That may be, but being more complex does not imply being more admirable. If someone talks like a creep and acts like a creep, they are a creep. Complex inner life and internal ambivalences do not make them significantly less a creep; in important ways, you are what you do (and speech is an act). Sophisticated assessments can be less accurate than straightforward ones, if they obsess over (largely hypothetical) facets of a person which have no impact on the world or people around them.

I don't think she's thought about the terms of that reunion much, but has to know on some level that giving up her harem of adorees would be part of the deal.

Does she have to know that? Well, you have the advantage of having read parts of the text that I can not base my assessment on. But we have thus far been given no reason to imagine that she knows that or believes it in any way. On the other hand, if we're going to go with our general assessments of human nature to infer stuff that isn't there in the text, I'd say that whether or not she has vague tacit acknowledgements in one part of her that she should cut the playing if she wants the girl she really wants, if she actually got her she would quickly slip back into fooling around on the side because her narcissism and whatever other urges make her play around would not magically go away.

A question I've seen posed on these forums about other characters: Would anyone have the remotest shred of sympathy for her or be making excuses for her if she were a guy? I'm thinking no. Everyone would be like "That creepy rapey emotional-blackmailing bastard should be shot!"

last edited at Apr 22, 2016 12:52PM

Tamahime:
I'm not sure how old you are, but based on this comment I'm going to guess you are fairly young and naive about the way people and relationships work.

Ouff, regardless of the discussion, that was unfounded, unnecessary and low
Discussing Shizuka's character is pretty interesting, I'm enjoying reading the debate, but personally attacking and patronizing other users is really just unpleasant

Yeah I basically checked out of the discussion after that. I have no desire to debate someone who is that arrogant and condescending.

PLG - You're just trying to pick a fight at this point. You are exaggerating everything I said and then belittling my communication skills, so I'm done with this. I have already made the points I wanted to make, which was purely and simply that I don't think Kaoru is being given a fair shake. You are taking this FAR into the weeds now.

Majere - I am sorry if you found what I said insulting. I did not mean it that way, as I indicate above. Your comment just seemed very idealistic and naive to the ways all people are fallible.

Would anyone have the remotest shred of sympathy for her or be making excuses for her if she were a guy?

Perhaps you wouldn't see that here, but if you go to message boards regarding het romance for straight women, you'd see a lot of apologetics, and lionisation of the godawful behaviour of hot, dominant men. I think we're inclined to look favourably on dubious actions if they're getting us off, or fulfilling an emotional need, or positioning us in a certain role, regardless of whether our paramour is male or female.

I'm not going to claim that such desires are totally safe and don't need control or compartmentalisation, but I like to think they can be aired when discussing fictional characters and circumstances. What I'd want from a lover isn't what I'd want from a boss, and what I'd want from a man isn't what I'd want from a woman (basic humanity aside). A lot of the charitable judgements of female aggression aren't so much expressing hypocrisy, as they are expressing desire and identity.

At least that's where I'm coming from when I'm gushing about bad
behaviour. Perhaps I should include more disclaimers when I'm talking outside certain contexts. I'm not eager to normalise unwelcome predatory behaviour outside my sick little fantasies.

last edited at Apr 23, 2016 5:58PM

Majere - I am sorry if you found what I said insulting. I did not mean it that way, as I indicate above. Your comment just seemed very idealistic and naive to the ways all people are fallible.

It is not naive or idealistic to think that it is inappropriate to:

A) Aggressively pursue someone who broke up with you for cheating while expressing no contrition whatsoever and despite the fact that they are in a relationship and they have made it quite clear they don't want to get together with you
B) Touch that person in sexual ways with no respect for their boundaries or consent
C) While at the same time taking advantage of the emotional vulnerability of a different girl solely for the sake of stroking your own ego

It is selfish and creepy and indicative of the fact that you prioritize your own immediate gratification above the happiness of anyone else. Kaoru is a bad person and a bad girlfriend and she has shown no respect for anyone but herself. Sorry if you have a fucked up and cynical view of what constitutes a healthy relationship dynamic but that doesn't make me a child for not sharing it.

Also, nah there's no way someone wasn't reading that opening statement as insultingly patronizing because it was fundamentally insultingly patronizing.

Majere - I am sorry if you found what I said insulting. I did not mean it that way, as I indicate above. Your comment just seemed very idealistic and naive to the ways all people are fallible.

It is not naive or idealistic to think that it is inappropriate to:

A) Aggressively pursue someone who broke up with you for cheating while expressing no contrition whatsoever and despite the fact that they are in a relationship and they have made it quite clear they don't want to get together with you
B) Touch that person in sexual ways with no respect for their boundaries or consent
C) While at the same time taking advantage of the emotional vulnerability of a different girl solely for the sake of stroking your own ego

It is selfish and creepy and indicative of the fact that you prioritize your own immediate gratification above the happiness of anyone else. Kaoru is a bad person and a bad girlfriend and she has shown no respect for anyone but herself. Sorry if you have a fucked up and cynical view of what constitutes a healthy relationship dynamic but that doesn't make me a child for not sharing it.

But she's so sexy.

last edited at Apr 22, 2016 3:04PM

A) Aggressively pursue someone who broke up with you for cheating while expressing no contrition whatsoever and despite the fact that they are in a relationship and they have made it quite clear they don't want to get together with you

I think everyone is forgetting the ages of the girls involved here. They were in middle school when they were going out. "Cheating" at that age constitutes what - kissing someone else? Sure, it's emotionally impactful, especially during those hormonal years, to feel "betrayed" by the person you like. But she's not a homewrecker, she's a kid who is very immature. Also, Shizuka is not in a relationship. The two of them like each other clearly, but since the early unrealistic chapters (where they're taking their shirts off in school) they haven't done more than flirt and hold hands. That doesn't make you "taken."

B) Touch that person in sexual ways with no respect for their boundaries or consent

You are absolutely right here. In real life this would be absolutely unacceptable. This is ecchi manga world, though, where unfortunately "no" usually means "yes." That is its own set of issues, one that you just end up kind of ignoring if you like adult manga but aren't into nonconsent. I don't feel the groping was drawn because it was particularly in character or realistic, I think it was there for service value. As OnT has gone on the service factor has gone way down, but every so often Kishi decides he has to spice up a chapter to keep the fanboys happy or whatever.

C) While at the same time taking advantage of the emotional vulnerability of a different girl solely for the sake of stroking your own ego

I don't think she's taking advantage of Mayu. Mayu is a straight girl who was hurting because she was broken up with and Kaoru offered to be her friend. Mayu admires her in the standard crushing-on-a-cool-sempai way.