Forum › Fluttering Feelings [SPOILER THREAD]
Cliches are unoriginal. But that doesn't mean that they necessarily establish a stale, unoriginal story.
I've never said that but it does affect a story negatively. A few moments of lesser quality does not mean something is garbage, but it prevents it from... For example being a masterpiece.
Although you can go find any critic of any literature work and they'll still find a billion flaws and things to nitpick =P
Writing, plot development, characterization, etc., are all elements that contribute heavily to any story.
Absolutely.
I think if you actually read his/her arguments, you'd be hard pressed to find anything objective at all. Refer to my comparison above.
Yes, she got lost trying to explain more in depth why she found her boring and uninteresting, which failed to be convince because they weren't... very convincing.
But her core argument was the that the work lost points because of the (over)usage of clichés.
You still haven't brought forward an solid argument against cliché = inhenrently negatively impacting. So that point still stands.
This was the core argument against the "quality" of FF that I gathered from her post(s).
Perhaps you've overreached when you said clichés are not innately bad? I mean... That did make me jump ^_^ Bold words being said and all.
Again, I only took part of her argument. Which indicates that clichés = negative to a work of fiction. I never stated nor implied FF was bad or uninteresting just that by using clichés it was worse for it. I am merely pointing out that clichés do decrease the overall quality of FF by being what they are.
I feel like I repeated myself a billion times, sorry. The tireness is getting to me on this fine evening.
You know who
lol too funny
By Shion Nee-san
Source: https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10207898424647750&id=1510331492&set=p.10207898424647750&source=47
Thank you Evilnemesis for taking the time to rephrase my core argument. I didn't have the time nor the will to explain again and again what I meant at length. I do not have the same level of emotional investment in FF than some people here who will defend it tooth and nails.
I'm in no mood to write essays about what I feel is wrong with the flow of this story. I keep getting bashed because you insist that criticism equals dislike. My opinion is much more nuanced than that, or I wouldn't bother writing here about something I supposedly hate.
last edited at Oct 21, 2015 6:05AM
I wonder how the story with the ex will go. But I hope we get to see a jealous Seol-a! I really liked the moments when Seola followed Norae to her village, and then after that, when she was inside Norae-s home and she wouldn't let Norae get up from the couch xD
Seol-a character is cool, because even though she's the bombshell and guys like her, plus she has confidensce too, she's still a nice person and does not look down on the rest of the people. And No-rae character is so cute, they make a contrast, but their core values are similar. Like they are kind hearted people.
It would really be nice to see Seol-a feeling like she's loosing Norae and how that would turn out. Also developing Norae's character more, and exploring it more in depth
You still haven't brought forward an solid argument against cliché = inhenrently negatively impacting. So that point still stands.
well...if cliches are inherently bad, then that makes all stories bad to a point, wouldn't you think? cause if you think about it, lol, everything is a cliche. this story is about a boy. oh man haven't heard that before, /roll eyes. this story is about a girl, jeez tons of those. this story has a character in it, and they fall in love. wowzers, that's like most the stories out there! it's only when you get more and more detailed that it starts derailing the story. this is about a girl, who falls in love, and something traumatic happens, and they react this certain way, so this thing is the result of it. ok, and you can still take that kind of scenario and make it your own. this is about a girl who has a deformed hand, and when she was ten she stayed the night at a friend's house, but her friend's crazy uncle came over with his pet pig. later in the night when she gets up to use the bathroom, she sees the uncle porking the pig, traumatizing her. as a result, she can no longer look her friend in the eye, knowing the man who had done that was her uncle, and they become estranged for years, until later as adults they come clean about everything. however, during that whole time, the two were always aware and conscious of the other when they'd see the other at school or around town, always full of regret, guilt, half formed attraction.
in a nutshell, things that happen in a story like car wrecks, deceased loved ones, while yes, they've been used before, you have to look at all the circumstances. first of all, is the author itself from a place where car wrecks are very common? and story wise, it can still be made into your own. why did it happen? what lead to it? how did the character and those involved deal with it? how did it affect them after? there as sooo many nuances and variations that can be done, that if they try, the author can still make original. and honestly, having something completely off the balls original just for the sake of having it be original, does not always make a story good either.
Regarding the marvelous discussion going on... I'd love to point out that in a yuri manga, comic, game, fanfiction, mawha, anime, etc... is SO cliché for the two girls to end up together, and it is even worse when they're the main characters. Also, I'm not taking sides, I'm just saying...
And... I'd like to see how the ex arc is going to develop. I don't remenber why they broke up, but I told a friend and she said she was sure he had to go to the military. Yet, I think they broke up because he cheated on NoRae with someone, and since SeolA seems to know him from somewhere... Yeah, well.
well...if cliches are inherently bad, then that makes all stories bad to a point, wouldn't you think?
If by bad you mean that every story has faults and none is perfect and above reproach then yes all stories are "bad". How can a story be perfect when a single or a few imperfect human beings are the creators?
Why do you think a lot of authours that desire quality often ask proffesionals on certain subject. If they have a character with certain specific traits, they ask a psychologist how a person with a certain condition would act and react to XYZ situations. Why do fantasy authours ask for help when it comes to describing swordplay, horseplay, tracking, sword forging etc... From a person that has a certain experience.
There's also continuity errors in many work.
So TL;DR All stories are "bad" in certain ways, they all have faults.
I hate your walls with no spacing and no capital letters anywhere and stuff Q_Q
Edit:
this story is about a boy. oh man haven't heard that before, /roll eyes. this story is about a girl, jeez tons of those. this story has a character in it, and they fall in love
See this isn't a cliché because there's nothing trivial about the concept of a human being or a "boy" or "girl" and love.
These are timeless concepts and ideas. Well as timeless as one can get.
These aren't cliché, but the car accident is. Not only has it entered the realm of banality but it will also loses it meaning and grip in the future. It's quite possible we won't use cars in the distant future.
last edited at Oct 21, 2015 1:29PM
Regarding the marvelous discussion going on... I'd love to point out that in a yuri manga, comic, game, fanfiction, mawha, anime, etc... is SO cliché for the two girls to end up together, and it is even worse when they're the main characters. Also, I'm not taking sides, I'm just saying...
And... I'd like to see how the ex arc is going to develop. I don't remenber why they broke up, but I told a friend and she said she was sure he had to go to the military. Yet, I think they broke up because he cheated on NoRae with someone, and since SeolA seems to know him from somewhere... Yeah, well.
I remember seeing that somewhere that he cheated on No-Rae. I hope it wasn't Seol-A. That would be the worst...but this is a drama so I can see that as another plot twist.
I remember seeing that somewhere that he cheated on No-Rae.
Somehow I got that vibe too, that he cheated on No-rae or something. Cuz when Kye-hyung reminisced about it, she was trying to make a connection why Norae was emotionally affected by Seola's cheating ex-bf incident. It could because there was cheating involved... Or maybe she was just thinking it was a bad break up for Norae too, so Norae felt bad for Seola. Idk.
I hope it wasn't Seol-A. That would be the worst...but this is a drama so I can see that as another plot twist.
I don't think so. They would've recognized each other. It's not like they're mid 30s and met each other in their college days and cant remember each other.
last edited at Oct 21, 2015 5:54PM
I hope No-rae tells her ex to fuck off and the drama is not drawn out. But I think its probably going to take 4-5 chapters to get this resolved instead of 1 chapter. I don't want any men ruining my yuri or there would be hell to pay.
Somehow I got that vibe too, that he cheated on No-rae or something. Cuz when Kye-hyung reminisced about it, she was trying to make a connection why Norae was emotionally affected by Seola's cheating ex-bf incident. It could because there was cheating involved... Or maybe she was just thinking it was a bad break up for Norae too, so Norae felt bad for Seola. Idk.
I don't think the ex cheated on Norae. 1) he doesn't look like a cheater. If he's that type of a guy, he would have hit on Seol-a after bumping into her. Seol-a is no ordinary girl. 2) If he did cheat on Norae, I cannot think of any good reason for bringing him back.
last edited at Oct 21, 2015 10:23PM
To add more cliches in this story
Norae's ex didn't mean to cheat
He got drunk for some reason and accidentally sleep with another girl
And Norae saw it
Ba-bam!!!
Hello fellow FF fans,
I created an account just to be able to join these discussions. Love this. Special thanks to all the people involve with the translations from pastebin. I couldn't survive without you guys.
Not gonna say much today, I have homework to do and such.
I was so ready for the confession...but anxious as well. The interruption was cliche as many of you have said, but cliches are here for a reason. Useful to generate anxiety, anger, any emotion really or express feelings or ideas. Really we can never escape them. If you really feel some kind of way about cliches I recommend the Shakespeare's Sonnet 130, that should make you smile or relax a little I hope.
I look forward to seeing how the ex thing plays out though. It was bound to happen sometime.
Until next time.
To add more cliches in this story
Norae's ex didn't mean to cheat
He got drunk for some reason and accidentally sleep with another girl
And Norae saw it
Ba-bam!!!Oh wow I actually agree with this theory--- that seems like what could've happened
That would kind of make sense.
Maybe it was he felt pressure to enlist in the military but didn't tell No-Rae until right before he left. Would make sense to "how could he do that to me?". I think she said something like that. Don't quote me on it. Just a theory.
I've never said that but it does affect a story negatively. A few moments of lesser quality does not mean something is garbage, but it prevents it from... For example being a masterpiece.
How so? How does something being "unoriginal" or "typical" prevent something from being a great story? There are tons of plots and stories out there that would be considered cliche, but are also considered masterpieces. When you say that cliches will inherently degrade someone's work, it's like saying "A fruit will taste worse if it's a certain shape"; the two are completely separate traits that have nothing to do with each other. A story can be cliche and unoriginal. That doesn't automatically mean its quality has gone down, because there are so many other factors that contribute to a plot's quality.
Cliches may have negative connotations, but whether those connotations are true for a story or not, depends on many other variable factors.
You still haven't brought forward an solid argument against cliché = inhenrently negatively impacting.
Read my previous posts.
I keep getting bashed because you insist that criticism equals dislike
Because YOUR criticism specifically was based on your personal dislike for cliches.
See this isn't a cliché because there's nothing trivial about the concept of a human being or a "boy" or "girl" and love.
Cliches have nothing to do with about whether something is trivial or not. It's about how common or overused a concept is. Love stories are most definitely cliche. But why don't you ask Nya-chan to define a few cliche moments for you? Because apparently 99% of the events in FF are cliche.
It's quite possible we won't use cars in the distant future.
Wow you must be a gold medal champion for mental gymnastics. Holy crap the length some ppl will go to claim that some event is "cliche" lmao
An author could write the most original, creative, out-of-this-world plot ever, and it could still be a shitty story.
last edited at Oct 22, 2015 4:15AM
I hope author comes up with another idea than just the ex cheating on No-rae. But so far Ssamba has shown that he/she can write differently that the "norm" aka cliche. So I'm having my hopes up that it will be something cool tbh. And even if that happens, maybe it will trigger Seol-a and we get to see her frustrated and maybe jealous. I like when characters get messy and so far both Seol-a and especially No-Rae have been very composed
the two are completely separate traits that have nothing to do with each other.
Plot points have nothing do to with the creative process of writing a story?
A story can be cliche and unoriginal. That doesn't automatically mean its quality has gone down, because there are so many other factors that contribute to a plot's quality.
Yes it does mean that. Put it this this way. Let say I read a book and It has well written grammatically, has good prose etc... Suddenly I find a typo, the quality has gone down. But it's only a small instance, it doesn't mean that I'll throw it in the garbage and call it a "shitty story" like you've said in the end of your last post.
Cliches may have negative connotations, but whether those connotations are true for a story or not, depends on many other variable factors.
No it's always negative. What changes, is how good all other parts of the creative process is to compensate for it.
A man has a bad habit of never putting down the toilet seat after he's finished. He has no other bad traits. A second man has the same bad habit but he also is prone to anger, thinks only of himself, never cleans up, etc... Both have the same fault, yet the first man is definately more eligible to marry.
Why? Because he has other qualities to compensate for what he has wrong/bad.
A blister covered up is still an imperfection on the skin.
Read my previous posts.
I did. You simply said the same thing that it's not the cliché being used the problem it's how you use it afterwards. This is a meme everyone seems to parrot, because they "like" the story better when that happens. This is the dilemma people have with Moral vs. Legal.
Again, the usage of cliché "well" doesn't make the fault dissappear. At least not to an objective critic.
Cliches have nothing to do with about whether something is trivial or not. It's about how common or overused a concept is.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/trivial
Love stories are most definitely cliche.
No. History time? The term cliché was coined when there was an influx of cheap/barely different from one another stories because pressing paper with "new" revolutionary machines happened.
The clichés wasn't the concept or love or love story but rather the situations depicted.
Love at first sight from the rich count after the breadgirl caught his hat or situations that were time specific. I'm not well versed in cheap romance stories on the back of newspapers from the 1700s but you get the idea.
This is why the story of a "boy" isn't cliché but if you say "the adolescent boy is going to save the world" it does become cliché ie. Shounen stories.
But why don't you ask Nya-chan to define a few cliche moments for you? Because apparently 99% of the events in FF are cliche.
Wow you must be a gold medal champion for mental gymnastics
You are too, claiming a cliché is seperate from the creative procress in a story, I'm astounded you could do such gymnastics.
Holy crap the length some ppl will go to claim that some event is "cliche" lmao
I also could claim the same of you, erroneously using the term over and over. I could presume you defend that incorrect usage of term to defend tooth and nail FF which you are invested heavily in.
I could rephrase as well ahem : Holy crap the length some ppl will go to claim a coiché isn't inhenrently "bad" roflcopterBBQlmaoayyyyy
Also, really? Calling me tryhard for debating something on a forum?
An author could write the most original, creative, out-of-this-world plot ever, and it could still be a shitty story.
Again, it wouldn't. That's an hyperbole, which you seem fond of using to make it look like my arguments are less sound. Nice try though.
If you've noticed the tone of the second part of my post is less nice, do you know why?
This:
But why don't you ask Nya-chan to define a few cliche moments for you? Because apparently 99% of the events in FF are cliche.
Wow you must be a gold medal champion for mental gymnastics
Holy crap the length some ppl will go to claim that some event is "cliche" lmao
I don't think I deserved any of these snide remarks nor attempt at belittlement, my posts have always neutral. In short, I treat an asshole like he/she deserves.
If you've noticed the tone of the second part of my post is less nice, do you know why?
This:
But why don't you ask Nya-chan to define a few cliche moments for you? Because apparently 99% of the events in FF are cliche.
Wow you must be a gold medal champion for mental gymnastics
Holy crap the length some ppl will go to claim that some event is "cliche" lmaoI don't think I deserved any of these snide remarks nor attempt at belittlement, my posts have always neutral. In short, I treat an asshole like he/she deserves.
I see you're in the same predicament than me. But I fully expected to be flamed.
You try to reasonably write your opinion but you get treated like a retard (apologies to mentally impaired people) and it's dismissed as garbage. And the more you write, the more you're ridiculed.
That's pretty much why I didn't bother writing walls of text.
Everyone acnowledged there are some cliches in FF. I guess the effect they have on the reader may vary, depending on their previous exposure.
Nez Note
Okay, you yokels, knock it off. Everyone loves a good scrap, but y'all are getting a bit too serious about the scuffle and it's causing hurt feelings apparently. Step back a bit. Nobody's ridiculing you, nobody's calling you a "retard", they're just challenging your position.
So everybody back to neutral corners for a bit, get some water, rinse off your mouth guard, let the coach call you a bum a couple of times for some unexplained reason. At any rate, take a breather and get some perspective, k?
i liek FF :>
Nez Note
Okay, you yokels, knock it off. Everyone loves a good scrap, but y'all are getting a bit too serious about the scuffle and it's causing hurt feelings apparently. Step back a bit. Nobody's ridiculing you, nobody's calling you a "retard", they're just challenging your position.
So everybody back to neutral corners for a bit, get some water, rinse off your mouth guard, let the coach call you a bum a couple of times for some unexplained reason. At any rate, take a breather and get some perspective, k?
Agreed. I love FF nonetheless. All the way.
Plot points have nothing do to with the creative process of writing a story?
How well written and delivered a plot is (in other words how enjoyable a story is) has nothing to do with how the author decided to go about with their "creative process".
Yes it does mean that. Put it this this way. Let say I read a book and It has well written grammatically, has good prose etc... Suddenly I find a typo, the quality has gone down. But it's only a small instance, it doesn't mean that I'll throw it in the garbage and call it a "shitty story" like you've said in the end of your last post.
Typos and other grammatical errors can affect the delivery of the story and change meanings of words or phrases in certain instances. They're different from cliches.
A man has a bad habit of never putting down the toilet seat after he's finished. He has no other bad traits. A second man has the same bad habit but he also is prone to anger, thinks only of himself, never cleans up, etc... Both have the same fault, yet the first man is definately more eligible to marry.
Okay, if you want to use this example, let's actually address the cliche instead of ignoring it. A man has a bad habit of never putting down the toilet seat after he's finished. However, he always cleans up meticulously after himself, making sure that the toilet is clean and sanitary after using it. A second man has the same bad habit, but he never cleans up after himself; in fact, he doesn't bother to ever flush the toilet. The toilet is often left in a dirty state, with stains and drops of urine everywhere. See the difference?
I did. You simply said the same thing that it's not the cliché being used the problem it's how you use it afterwards. This is a meme everyone seems to parrot, because they "like" the story better when that happens. This is the dilemma people have with Moral vs. Legal.
Completely off topic, I have no idea what you're talking about
I don't think you're using trivial in its correct context...it means "something of so little importance that it's deemed as unremarkable or commonplace". Not just "something that is common".
No. History time? The term cliché was coined when there was an influx of cheap/barely different from one another stories because pressing paper with "new" revolutionary machines happened.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=cliche
Cliches referred to commonly used phrases/words that printers used, not stories.
Also, really? Calling me tryhard for debating something on a forum?
No, I wasn't calling you a tryhard. I was saying that your explanation for why car accidents are cliche was so ludicrous that it looked like you were pulling things out of your ass.
Following your logic from the car example, everything and anything is cliche. Any object can be rendered obsolete in the future. You might as well be saying clothes, traffic lights, roads, paintings, etc. are cliche because there's a possibility that we won't use them in the future.
An author could write the most original, creative, out-of-this-world plot ever, and it could still be a shitty story.
Again, it wouldn't. That's an hyperbole, which you seem fond of using to make it look like my arguments are less sound. Nice try though.
Explain? How so???? So if a story doesn't contain cliches, and it's super original, it must be good? Uh...okay......sounds fake...but...okay........
Again, I love Fluterring Feelings.
I love Halmoni for putting the efforts and time into this wonderful manhwa.
I love all the people who have taken their time to typeset Halmoni's translation for all of us to enjoy it better. To name them all: QCO, d.d.d., kyra, cold, some anonymous FB person, thatanon, and anonymous (hope i didnt miss anyone)
Last but most, I love our cute author Ssamba for creating this sensational story & art despite the critical remarks for her chosen devices. I'm sure everyone has different opinions, but to me Ssamba has created a very original story in the yuri world.
I've read thousands of yuri mangas for over 8 years, and it's the first time that a manhwa felt so close to heart. Yes, I do have many other favorite yuri works such as Aqua Blue Cinema, Aoi Hana, Octave, Shoujo Holic, Kimi Koi Limit, Girl Friends, and many more (mostly still going and not finished yet). Most of them I liked because they're either cute, or mature, or indifferent, or idealistic. But Seola and Norae are the most realistic characters that I've felt close to. Maybe it's because I'm Asian while Japanese are the least Asian i've known, I feel familiar to this manhwa's characters than the other manga's characters.
Anyway, only because Norae and Seola felt SO real to me that I love it when Ssamba throws at them all these "clichés" (or "not cliche" incidents). YES, I do want to see our cute little couple experience them ALL! ALL! ALL! All the things that have happened so far still feel very "original" to me.
I know I overused the word "feel" when describing the series but what can i do? We're talking about Fluttering Feelings after all!
Feel it, guys. Stop overanalyzing.
See the difference?
I do, believe me. That doesn't change the fact that the man has a bad habit. Which was, what I was talking about in the first place.
I don't think you're using trivial in its correct context...it means "something of so little importance that it's deemed as unremarkable or commonplace". Not just "something that is common".
I think I'm using correctly? The reason why car accidents are considered cliché is because they happen so often as a plot device, by appearing often they become unremarkable. They become trivial. The reader(s) no longer feel anything after so many. But I think nitpicking over a word this long might be a bit too tryhard me, this isn't important.
No. History time? The term cliché was coined when there was an influx of cheap/barely different from one another stories because pressing paper with "new" revolutionary machines happened.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=cliche
Cliches referred to commonly used phrases/words that printers used, not stories.
Yes, but the term evolved over time to include what we call "cliché situations". Which included certain cliché scenarios in romance stories, but romance itself is not. This is what I was getting at.
Following your logic from the car example, everything and anything is cliche. Any object can be rendered obsolete in the future. You might as well be saying clothes, traffic lights, roads, paintings, etc. are cliche because there's a possibility that we won't use them in the future.
I realize this wasn't clear because it was in a sentence on it's own but that was what I meant.
This wasn't my logic at all. A car isn't a cliché, the cliché is a car getting in an accident to cause some sort of reaction to the readers and/or to a character in order to advance the plot. Clothes, or a shirt aren't cliché, but using them a certain way for plot purposes could be. A streetlight or a bunch of them going off in the dead of the night in a deserted part of town while a character happens to be walking. Again, the objects themselves are not clichés but using them in the plot a certain way is.
Explain? How so???? So if a story doesn't contain cliches, and it's super original, it must be good? Uh...okay......sounds fake...but...okay........
This is my mistake entirely, I must admit I saw red ( heheheh I used a cliché ) at the end of the post and read something entirely.
I agree with what you've said previously, but that's not related with how clichés are bad. Bad stories can be bad for different reasons, one doesn't stop another.
I feel like we're sort of talking over eachother at this point. A lot of our discussion is based on us being on differing sides when it comes to clichés being bad themselves.
Since it looks like neither of us will convince the other, we can agree to disagree?
I still hope you can understand why comments like these set me off :
Especially after another comment telling me I should ask Nya-chan for help. Saying someone should ask for help in a debate is not very kind
Holy crap the length some ppl will go to claim that some event is "cliche" lmao
Tryharding IS how far a person is willing to go achieve something. I realize now this wasn't what you meant.
That's the beauty of language I guess, one person writes something and people find it means multiple things.
P.S. I want to apologize, even if I felt like some of the your comments not appropriate I should not lashed like I did. Just like the man and the toilet I have my own faults, I should've controlled my anger.
Feel it, guys
I feel it =P
last edited at Oct 22, 2015 8:10PM