A little bit interesting but very weird and it's all about dicks.

I pointed comedy thing because some people here consider comedy trap to be use as mocking the idea of truly transgender people and I agree. Sometimes the humor with cross-dressing or trans people is insulting. That is why I so hardly stress that good comedy with trap is only when trap in question is doing it willingly and doesn't actually want to be a girl like transvestites. I don't want to go into exceptions like Himegoto. He isn't forced to being a trap, he is forced to cross-dress against his will. At least from what I know, I didn't read it. Unless someone tells him to cross-dress in order to be mistake for girl by some guy as a joke, it isn't anywhere close to trap.

From what I remember everybody who don't know Hime thinks he's a girl in Himegoto, and again I agree with what you said, good thing most good trap mangas they do it because they like and not to troll someone, I call it all trap because it's easier but I agree that some are not really trap, like in Bokura no Hentai.

but now I get what you meant, I think Bokura no Hentai is the only serious trap manga I have read, someone remembers any other?

You mean that 3 main characters are traps? Cos I'm not sure if I got your sentence right ^ ^"

From what I remember only one character could be called trap, one is trans and the other cross-dress because of his mother, but it's been some time I read it so I don't remember if trap would really be the right word as that character suffered sexual abuse when he was a child so maybe he do that because of his trauma, I need to read it again...

Yay transmisogynistic tropes. Why can't we have manga with actual trans girl lesbians, so many missed opportunities.

Oh well, at least we'll always have Ayumi and Aika.

I'm kinda surprised at how this series is going so far - I thought the author did well with Bokura no Hentai. On the other hand... I probably shouldn't be.

I'm still not sure how to interpret Liz's character though. The ambiguity in p14/p15 in Ch11 is in the source text (I checked) - Liz is talking abstractly there instead of about themselves (i.e. no 'mine' or similar possessive language.) I assume this will be clearer in later chapters.

FWIW even though most of the manga Hachimitsu translates leans into the transphobic/transmisogynistic, they've translated a few relatively solid series that deal with trans themes and they handle those properly. So if that ends up being the case here they probably won't fuck it up...

On that topic of trans girl lesbians, Kyou Kara Yonshimai has one as a main character. Though that series itself isn't necessarily perfectly executed...

I loved Bokura no Hentai. Especially Marika's character. I got really happy when she went to an hospital to take care of the matter before it was too late and puberty was too advanced.

The author seems to specialize in mindfuck stories anyway.

I think Bokura no Hentai is the only serious trap manga I have read, someone remembers any other?

Depends of what you call "serious" and what exactly you mean by "trap".

But two examples of manga where the MC pretends to be a "real girl" as a plot-element, without real comedic purpose behind the cross-dressing:
Shounen Ojo
Coda

For Coda the cross-dressing is purely circumstantial and temporary, while in Shounen Ojo, I'm under the impression that the MC is currently developing some kind of gender issues, especially with this passage at pages 12 to 14.

But Bokura no Hentai is the only one I've read which is that violent/depressing about the subject of cross-dressing.

For Sakura no Sono, I like it, even if it's really weird and I didn't understand the majority of what it's currently happening.

My issue with the characters isn't about Liz (I love cross-dressers and trans' characters), but I'm under the impression that certain characters aren't even humans, more like they are human-shaped mushrooms. Only Liz and Sakura, and perhaps the sensei seem to be proper humans.

last edited at Jul 27, 2015 3:05PM

From what I remember only one character could be called trap, one is trans and the other cross-dress because of his mother, but it's been some time I read it so I don't remember if trap would really be the right word as that character suffered sexual abuse when he was a child so maybe he do that because of his trauma, I need to read it again...

1 guy is cross-dressing because he is gay and his crush won't have sex with guys, only girls. 1 guy has to cross-dress so his mentally ill mother will react and talk to him at all. And 1 girl is born with male body. Actually there is 1 character which I forgot about, that is my definition of trap. He is really good example of what I'm talking about.

You really should use word cross-dressing as its more proper after all.

I loved Bokura no Hentai. Especially Marika's character. I got really happy when she went to an hospital to take care of the matter before it was too late and puberty was too advanced.

She is a really good representation of transgender character. My only issue with her story was that, she was established as looking really feminine. I seriously hate that most manga character who wants to be a girl accidentally never has to deal with that problem. Even her coming out was waved off by her classmates by saying "he always looked like a girl, it would totally work". So what if you don't look like a girl? Sorry no sex change or acceptance for you? Story from Mermaid line which was brought here before is a good example of how it really looks in real life.

Obviously, for Bokura no Hentai, the author discussed the matter with doctors specializing in gender issues (it says as much in some afterwords). I guess a more typical transgender would be Caitlyn Jenner? Some cosmetic surgery can help to feminize the body and gain more acceptance.

lady_freyja

Depends of what you call "serious" and what exactly you mean by "trap".

But two examples of manga where the MC pretends to be a "real girl" as a plot-element, without real comedic purpose behind the cross-dressing:
Shounen Ojo
Coda

Thanks I'll have a look later, I didn't expressed myself correctly, what I meant was mangas with cross-dressing character of any gender that don't use that for comedy, which is the case in most mangas you can call them traps.

For Sakura no Sono, I like it, even if it's really weird and I didn't understand the majority of what it's currently happening.

My issue with the characters isn't about Liz (I love cross-dressers and trans' characters), but I'm under the impression that certain characters aren't even humans, more like they are human-shaped mushrooms. Only Liz and Sakura, and perhaps the sensei seem to be proper humans.

I'm starting to think no one is human, would explain why Liz magically didn't have a bulge in that page I talked before.

Nevri

You really should use word cross-dressing as its more proper after all.

Yeah I know that, but old habits die hard.

She is a really good representation of transgender character. My only issue with her story was that, she was established as looking really feminine. I seriously hate that most manga character who wants to be a girl accidentally never has to deal with that problem. Even her coming out was waved off by her classmates by saying "he always looked like a girl, it would totally work". So what if you don't look like a girl? Sorry no sex change or acceptance for you? Story from Mermaid line which was brought here before is a good example of how it really looks in real life.

I get why you don't like that but these characters are always japanese, it's a lot easier for asians to look androgynous or like a girl wih some make up, but some examples in manga are really hard to believe, specially when they're adults and more beautiful than woman without using any kind of make up.

I get why you don't like that but these characters are always japanese, it's a lot easier for asians to look androgynous or like a girl wih some make up, but some examples in manga are really hard to believe, specially when they're adults and more beautiful than woman without using any kind of make up.

That is a tad too easy an explanation to be honest. If you are ever in Tokyo and go to Shinjuku Ni-chōme in the evening you will see that, while it may indeed be just a bit easier on average, for many it is still rather difficult to pull off. Usually it is the exceptional cases that you get to see images of, not the norm. It is also important to remember that even if Japanese cis men on average may seem little more androgynous by "western" standards, the comparison is always one within the culture they live in, so they will compare themselves to Japanese cis women, not western ones.

Oh. And of course youth plays a huge role in the whole thing as well. The younger you are the more likely you can pull off cross-dressing, and the easier it is to transition if that is what you desire.

That is a tad too easy an explanation to be honest. If you are ever in Tokyo and go to Shinjuku Ni-chōme in the evening you will see that, while it may indeed be just a bit easier on average, for many it is still rather difficult to pull off. Usually it is the exceptional cases that you get to see images of, not the norm. It is also important to remember that even if Japanese cis men on average may seem little more androgynous by "western" standards, the comparison is always one within the culture they live in, so they will compare themselves to Japanese cis women, not western ones.

Oh. And of course youth plays a huge role in the whole thing as well. The younger you are the more likely you can pull off cross-dressing, and the easier it is to transition if that is what you desire.

Yeah I know that in real life it's not like that, but in fiction that's always the explanation they're going to use for super androgynous characters when they don't use the basic supernatural excuse of course.

last edited at Jul 27, 2015 4:07PM

Was interesting at first. But started to dislike it now. I guess Liz turned out to be a man playing a part. But then killing off Minmin too is just too sad.

I got baited really hard. Not only did they off the best character, the moral of the story feels forced. Not much makes sense as to why some "die" while some who seem to experience the same, live. I suppose they are "there" or "not there" to create drama. Is it that when someone gets their heart break, they "die"?. Then why do the glasses girl still live? A comming of age of the girls who are not really real and neither is the setting. A ton of plot holes that will not get answered. Author's preference for drama and cross gender that is shoved forced upon the reader.

looks like a girl + is not a girl = trap
That's it. There is no need for further mistification or involving the reason of crossdressing.

Well, trap became kind of a generic term used loosely, but originally, it's for "look, it's a girl and the guy fall for her, but actually that's a guy !", usually revealed when things are steaming up. It's a trap because the reader (and to some extent, the protagonist) is led to believe that it's a girl to try and surprise them with the big reveal. The intent of the character and his motivation to cross-dress aren't all that relevant.

The situation here kinda fall in that definition, only that the guy falling for the "girl" is a girl.

FWIW even though most of the manga Hachimitsu translates leans into the transphobic/transmisogynistic, they've translated a few relatively solid series that deal with trans themes and they handle those properly. So if that ends up being the case here they probably won't fuck it up...

I don't see how "most" of the manga Hachimitsu has done could be classified as "transphobic/transmisogynistic". While there may be some characters in certain series like Kyou Kara Yonshimai or Stop!! Hibari-kun! that could be seen as transphobic, those manga in particular don't show the trans characters in a disparaging way. Also, there are other series with trans characters where the trans character is largely, if not universally, accepted, as in Sazanami Cherry and Bokura no Hentai. Of all the series Hachimitsu has done, only a very few have had any trans character; the vast majority of the gender bender manga have simply involved cross-dressing with nothing about gender identify. Usotsuki Lily (except near the end, but again, there was no transphobia there), Kuragehime, Himegoto, Gisou Honey Trap, Otosuki, Ookami Shounen wa Kyou mo Uso o Kasaneru, Boy Skirt and Mizutama Honey Boy are all examples of that, to say nothing of all the smaller series including Reversible, Past Future, Boku to Boku, Kokuhaku, Zenryoku Otome, and many others.

My only problem with the fact that Liz is a trap is that sakura ripped off Liz's underwear in like chapter 4. She saw the hair and not the dick? I call bull

That's explained later as Liz taking a drug to make it smaller.

last edited at Jul 28, 2015 6:02PM

I'm reading AKB49 and ...

This manga is surprisingly interesting, thanks for mentioning it, Nya-chan.

Tooko: not super interested in arguing over finer details but I'd encourage you to look at this stuff less reductively. A handful of the titles you mentioned actually have gender identity themes that aren't too hard to notice...

last edited at Jul 28, 2015 6:05PM

That's explained later as Liz taking a drug to make it smaller.

Smaller? more like almost non-existent.

Tooko: not super interested in arguing over finer details but I'd encourage you to look at this stuff less reductively. A handful of the titles you mentioned actually have gender identity themes that aren't too hard to notice...

All I'll say is that "reading between the lines" is not proof of gender identity themes explicitly being inserted into the plot of a given series. You can interpret lines of dialogue and narration any way you wish, but unless a character is explicitly referred to as trans, I don't think we should start throwing around terms like "transphobia" in a series where there is none.

last edited at Jul 28, 2015 6:40PM

Tooko: not super interested in arguing over finer details but I'd encourage you to look at this stuff less reductively. A handful of the titles you mentioned actually have gender identity themes that aren't too hard to notice...

All I'll say is that "reading between the lines" is not proof of gender identify themes explicitly being inserted into the plot of a given series. You can interpret lines of dialogue and narration any way you wish, but unless a character is explicitly referred to as trans, I don't think we should start throwing around terms like "transphobia" in a series where there is none.

Transmisogyny encompasses more than harassment of characters who are explicitly trans, likewise transphobia can be at play even if the person on the receiving end isn't actually trans. Transmisogyny treats femininity as intrinsically inferior to masculinity.

Most of the manga Hachimitsu translates ends up having a dose of one or the other in it, even though I wouldn't call most of them mean-spirited. It's mostly a result of genre trappings and culture, I think... Western culture certainly has its own set of horrible norms at work here, so I'm not exactly throwing stones. A story containing some transmisogyny or transphobia doesn't make it irredeemable, you just have to be willing to recognize it for what it is.

As an example, Usotsuki Lily is actually full of transmisogyny and dabbles occasionally with gender identity themes. I don't consider this anything more than a flaw, though, since by the end the author directly owns up to everything she got wrong in early chapters.

So, then! Bokura no Hentai and Sakura no Sono.
As far as we're explicitly informed, Marika is the only major trans character in Bokura no Hentai. Parou and Yui are not exempt from transmisogyny just because they're not trans! You can frame it all as homophobia if you like, but that label falls short since Yui isn't homosexual.

If people in the thread wanna toss 'trap' around to describe stuff like Bokura no Hentai or Sakura no Sono, go ahead I guess? Just be aware of what you're actually implying when you use that term for anything other than the tired 'crossdressing femme boy tricks hetero boys into unwittingly becoming gay' trope.

I'm reading AKB49 and ...

This manga is surprisingly interesting, thanks for mentioning it, Nya-chan.

I have some qualms about the fact that it would take a guy to motivate the girls, but all in all, it's just a good manga about the girls of AKB48 with a twist.

And there's even "yuri" with the captain of Team A crushing on the MC and being thoroughly confused about it.

Most of the manga Hachimitsu translates ends up having a dose of one or the other in it, even though I wouldn't call most of them mean-spirited. It's mostly a result of genre trappings and culture, I think... Western culture certainly has its own set of horrible norms at work here, so I'm not exactly throwing stones. A story containing some transmisogyny or transphobia doesn't make it irredeemable, you just have to be willing to recognize it for what it is.

Yes, but in other hand, nearly every works of fiction possess similar flaws. For example a ton of yuri works are more or less heterosexist, with one girl assuming one way or another the "man role", recreating the man/woman dynamic as if it's a natural thing. It's less common and blatant than in yaoi with its seme/uke dynamic, but it is still present.

BTW every trans-related manga/anime I read/watched are heterosexist, and myself as a MTF trans' have similar flaws (minor misandrist traits). The only exception in my eyes is the character of Aikawa in Prunus Girl, which is for me a gender-fluid or intergender trans' even if it's not stated, mainly because of the "peach-cola flavor" story, and his/her general behavior.

The only way for not having that kind of flaw is to totally break the gender roles. And the very few stories which possess that potential (like Simoun) utterly fail. Because it's really, really hard to ignore the gender roles, the vast majority of LGBT folks are bound to them like the cis-people are.

So it's not surprising that the cross-dressing/trans' themed manga possess transmisogyny, heterosexism and similar traits. It's how our society works, alas. And if I have myself to write a story on that thematic, I will probably use these flaws too.

After that said, I agree with you; it would be better if the authors/translators/readers were more informed on that thematic. Especially Hachimitsu who use the word "trap" everywhere.
For example in the new serie Boy Skirt, if I understand well another conversation on Batoto, they have translated the word "Otokonoko" (literally "Male daughter") into "trap". I dunno what is the exact meaning behind the word "Otokonoko" for the Japanese folks, but with the etymology alone, it feels to be an odd translation at beast. And anyway, Izumi isn't a "trap" by definition, because he don't hide his sex and don't try to lure hetero-boys or lesbians.

last edited at Jul 29, 2015 6:24AM

After that said, I agree with you; it would be better if the authors/translators/readers were more informed on that thematic. Especially Hachimitsu who use the word "trap" everywhere.
For example in the new serie Boy Skirt, if I understand well another conversation on Batoto, they have translated the word "Otokonoko" (literally "Male daughter") into "trap". I dunno what the exact meaning behind the word "Otokonoko" for the Japanese folks, but with the etymology alone, it feels to be an odd translation at beast. And anyway, Izumi isn't a "trap" by definition, because he won't hide his sex and don't try to lure hetero-boys or lesbians.

The use of "trap" as the defacto translation of "otokonoko" (男の娘) is something that has been around for a long time. In Japanese, while 娘 is normally the kanji for "daughter", it is also used to denote "girl" in some circumstances, and the word "otokonoko" is itself a clever play on the Japanese word for boy, otokonoko (男の子), which uses 子 (the kanji for child), as does it's counterpart for girl, onnanoko (女の子). In Japan's otaku culture, the archetypal "otokonoko" (男の娘) is a boy who looks, acts and dresses femininely, although he identifies as male. That is, in every way, what the term "trap" has come to symbolize in the animanga subculture outside Japan.

Not that there aren't some alternatives that have their own loaded connotations like "girly boy", "drag queen", "transvestite", or "crossdresser", none of which really capture what an "otokonoko" is. The fact is, any term used to translate "otokonoko" into English is probably going to carry some unwanted connotation because of how these terms have been used in the past, and are still being used to this day.

The way I see it, "trap" has undergone a certain amount of evolution over the years, and as it currently stands, the original intent behind the term "trap" does not apply in all cases nowadays. In other words, using Izumi from Boy Skirt as an example, you are right that Izumi is not a "trap" by the original definition or intent of the term. But I would argue that today "trap" does not have to carry the original intent, and is merely used in contemporary language to describe a boy who is indistinguishable from a girl in looks and gestures. "Crossdresser" or "transvestite" don't do this, since those only describe people dressing as the opposite sex, but carries none of the feminine looks or gestures that an "otokonoko/trap" would have. "Girly boy" also doesn't do this, since that generally describes a boy that is feminine in appearance and possibly also gestures/personality, but not overly so (i.e. a "girly boy" would be "more boy than girl" for lack of a better description, whereas an "otokonoko/trap" is "more girl than boy"). "Drag queen" doesn't do this either, as jtt put it earlier:

To me drag queens are performers who use that term to express the type of performance that they specialise in. Drag kings are male acts, drag queens female acts, and in both cases some of the performers are straight cis females / straight cis males.

So is "trap" a perfect term to use in place of "otokonoko"? Of course not, but my point is, that more than likely, any other term would either (1) not accurately describe what an "otokonoko" is or (2) would have its own set of connotations that some people would take offense to based on how any and all of the terms above have been used to disparage certain people.

tl;dr

"Trap" is seen as a negative term to some, and a neutral term to others. Just because "trap" can in some cases be used negatively to disparage certain people, fictional or real, it is not always used in that context today. "Trap" has largely evolved to describe a very specific archetype in Japanese anime/manga, because, for better or for worse, there is no other term in English that describes what an "otokonoko" is in looks, gestures and personality. If "trap" was (as I believe) originally meant to be tongue-in-cheek, there is no reason why it still cannot be used in that way in certain contexts where the intent is clearly meant to be humorous, as with Izumi in Boy Skirt.

last edited at Jul 29, 2015 6:42AM

Thanks Tooko for the explanation!

I agree about the evolution of meaning of the words over the years.
Honestly I'm really new in the animanga culture, coupled by the fact that I'm non-native English speaker, the word "trap" eluded me for quite some time. And the expression "reverse-trap" was even worse. That's why I tend to stick to the original meaning after finding it. ^^'

That's another issue about that word (at least for me), even if "crossdresser" or "transvestite" aren't perfect, there is at least a direct link to the original meaning. "Trap" have no tie and is totally figurative.

But in that case, if there is no fitting word in English for that, in addition of the controversy behind the word "trap" which it is sometime considered as insulting, why not directly using the Japanese word? Like we do with "Tsundere", "Yandere" or "seme/uke"?

last edited at Jul 29, 2015 8:01AM

Thanks Tooko for the explanation!

I agree about the evolution of meaning of the words over the years.
Honestly I'm really new in the animanga culture, coupled by the fact that I'm non-native English speaker, the word "trap" eluded me for quite some time. And the expression "reverse-trap" was even worse. That's why I tend to stick to the original meaning after finding it. ^^'

That's another issue about that word (at least for me), even if "crossdresser" or "transvestite" aren't perfect, there is at least a direct link to the original meaning. "Trap" have no tie and is totally figurative.

But in that case, if there is no fitting word in English for that, in addition of the controversy behind the word "trap" which it is sometime considered as insulting, why not directly using the Japanese word? Like we do with "Tsundere", "Yandere" or "seme/uke"?

FWIW, danbooru's admins recently made the decision to change the 'trap' tag to 'otoko no ko' for that reason (Their userbase actually seemed rather upset by the idea, but the tag rename stuck). It's a well-intentioned idea that can work for a savvy audience, because they know what it means and you're not applying unintended meaning to it. On the other hand, the fact that it's a wordplay really sucks here - if you google the romanization or type it into a dictionary, the obvious #1 result is not actually what is intended. This works better in a case like danbooru or Dynasty Reader since tags can have an informative description applied, but that's not going to be true in most places.

'gender bend' is the least offensive english term I can think of for this general category of stuff, but it's soooo imprecise and vague.

Tooko already covered the breadth of this pretty well. I know plenty of people for whom 'trap' is a very hateful word. I'd strongly discourage anyone from using it in real life or to refer to a real person. Beyond that, though... it's already established itself as the term manga/anime fans use to refer to this stuff, so there's not much to do about that. In cases where a better/more precise word is available, use that one. Many scanlation groups (and commenters here on Dynasty) do so already.

lol, dynasty scans comments, never fails. Shame Liz isn't a girl to be on topic.

last edited at Jul 31, 2015 9:00PM