Well, I guess only time will tell if Hotaru's actions are really malicious or just desperate

.....hey reality check everyone. These are young, developing, high school girls we are dealing with. It's as if people expect them to be fully solidified in personality that they'll have for the rest of their life.

Maybe Hotaru is doing this out of sadness and desperation and doesn't know how to move forward. And sure you can dislike her for her current personality, but don't make the mistake of assuming the end result. Remember that probably 90% of everyone thought Homura was going to be a complete bitch as well. Granted those were rather extreme circumstances, but all the same the analogy holds true.

I strongly dislike cheating as well, but this isn't really cheating under the sense of Yuma explicitly going out of her way to do the act. It's all Hotaru. But Yuma is recognizing that maybe there is something more to her relationship with her than what she first thought. That's not being unfaithful any more than meeting a new coworker while dating someone and realizing you like him/her more. It sucks for the one left in the dust, but if there was someone who could stand between you and your partner in the first place, than there was a lot more fragility and distance to the relationship than necessary for a healthy, stable partnership.

So this kinda seems like 'cheating' in definition only, and a rather broad and shallow one. At least for now. We'll see where the story takes us.

EDIT: For clarification, I know nothing of the already-translated chapters and will not go back and read them because I wanna see how people react and cross-analyze that with how I react and make a conjecture of some kind at the end of it all.

last edited at Jul 29, 2015 12:27AM

You make some interesting points but I fear that you are missing the crux of my argument. It doesn't matter that I don't really know anything about him, or that he is a blank slate and unlikely to change. What matters is that he is a human being in a bad situation. In real life If I saw some one in a shitty situation I would feel bad for them regardless of whether I knew anything about them or not, because as a fellow human being I can image myself in the same scenario and empathize. Obviously this is not real life but I believe the same logic applies. He is a human in a terrible situation, because having your girlfriend cheat on you with someone that is actively trying to steal them is terrible, and as a human I can place my self in that position, see how awful it is and want it to get better for them not because I know them, but because they are human.

For the first point, I'll have to agree to disagree. What you call a person, I do not, and I'll fully accept we just see this differently. When reading fiction, I expect the author to make them human, and I respect your differing view.

Perhaps it's because I have a bit of an outsiders view on relationships, but I do not believe cheating to be as bad as you make it morally or universally, but I am not familiar with the circumstance myself, and so I must concede it's horribleness to you.

I do however agree that just because he is nice it does not mean that Yuma is under any obligation to date him, and as you say it doesn't seem that she wants to. However if the alternative is to have her dating Hotaru then I would rather her be single because I don't believe that nasty behavior as shown by Hotaru should be rewarded. What I was suggesting was, that out of the two potential couples we have been shown, I would prefer the one with guy in it, because thus far he has treated her better than Hotaru, and if Yuma does not want to date him then I believe it would be best for her to remain single as Hotaru has treated her rather nastily thus far.

I think of the two couples shown, the wishes of those involved are paramount, regardless of whether you think one deserves it or not. Nor do I believe that ones actions, or at least those of Hotaru thus far, should preclude her from having a relationship with Yuma, however I'll concede that as different moral outlook.

Which leads on to my next point of disagreement, the nastiness of Hotaru's actions. I don't believe I exaggerated at all, because no matter how you look at forcing your self onto someone who is in a relationship is a shitty thing to do. It's not a matter of who got there first it's a matter of human decency. This man is in a relationship, with someone we can assume he cares about, and to try and steal his girlfriend, going so have as to force yourself on them, is dick move, regardless of the context. In terms of Yuma's feeling while you are right that they seem to be drifting towards Hotaru, that is for her to discover and work out. It is not Hotaru's place to push herself on Yuma in an attempt to coax these feelings out especially not when she has a boyfriend

Thing is, the matter of him being in the relationship IS just him being there first. His feelings are not the most important thing here. If he gets hurt, he rips off a band aide. He moves on, assuming he's well adjusted enough. Yuma discovering herself is by far more important, and if it takes Hotaru not being perfect, so be it. She is in high school isn't she? She can act selfishly and not be Satan for it.

The bottom line is that even if I don't know enough about him to 'like him per-say, I still know enough about his situation that I wish for it to improve, and so in that sense I am rooting for him and hoping that things will get better for him. On the other side of things it is my opinion that Hotaru has behaved unkindly and done nothing that deserves reward or the affections of Yuma, so I cannot possibly support a yuri ending.

I can't root for someone based entirely on their situation, but that's just me I guess.

Please let me know if I haven't been clear, but know if you reply, I'll be gone to bed, so look out for my response tomorrow I guess for you.

It was fun for me to read you view on this, though a bit of a headache trying to see things your way before bed, ha!

Edited to say I like what ColnolCat said, and it's kind of (stressing that) like what I want to say, only smart people like and coherent.

I think.

last edited at Jul 29, 2015 12:56AM

Well, based on what I've seen of the later chapters (there's five currently)
It seems like Hotaru is being abused by her boyfriend Fujiwara, and she probably remembered when they were kids Yuma told her she would always be there to save her from bullies

Pretty much what I think too, where did you find chapter 5?

Was posted in the last recent releases thread on /u/. I didn't see anything in the rules about linking raws, so here it is
http://www.mediafire.com/download/vinl5vmhmrapplb/NTR_5.zip

Thanks wererat42.

Become one of us! Yuri for life! Btw I love this so I'm really looking forward for this manga! （≧∇≦）I'm just thinking what's going to happen next! I'm so excited!

Sorry, I'm rooting for Hotaru. Yuma doesn't seem very much in love with Mr Bland. Hotaru just wants to be stolen herself because she lacks the courage to break-up with her abusive boyfriend and Yuma is the only person in the world that can do that. Hotaru has probably been in love with Yuma for a long time, but we know just how HARD it is to confess to a straight friend, with the prospect of being rejected and losing a friend at the same time.

So, I want Yuma to help and protect Hotaru, like she promised from the very beginning. To hell with the guys. I can't empathize with them at all. There's plenty of fishes in the sea for them.

But there's only one Yuma for Hotaru and one Hotaru for Yuma. In the whole universe and for all eternity.

ITT: Cheating apologists

A bit too fast for a series. :w

For the first point, I'll have to agree to disagree. What you call a person, I do not, and I'll fully accept we just see this differently. When reading fiction, I expect the author to make them human, and I respect your differing view.

Perhaps it's because I have a bit of an outsiders view on relationships, but I do not believe cheating to be as bad as you make it morally or universally, but I am not familiar with the circumstance myself, and so I must concede it's horribleness to you.

Agreeing to disagree is probably the best thing we can do at this point, and while I may think differently, I can totally understand why you would feel a lack of empathy with such a blank character, after all you don't know enough about them to know if you can relate to them.

In regards to relationships I too must admit to being somewhat of an outsider looking in and as such my opinion on cheating has been formed with out personal experience. Cheating to me seems to be a complete disregard of your partners trust and as such a rather horrible thing to do, though not having experienced it I'm perhaps not the best judge. Also there's the question of whether or not is is cheating, I think it is, but with Hotaru initiating it creates a grey area that I'm sure other people will interpret it differently.

I think of the two couples shown, the wishes of those involved are paramount, regardless of whether you think one deserves it or not. Nor do I believe that ones actions, or at least those of Hotaru thus far, should preclude her from having a relationship with Yuma, however I'll concede that as different moral outlook.

I agree that both partners have to want the relationship for it to work, however I do believe behavior is important as well and given her actions so far It makes me wonder how Hotaru would behave if in a relationship. That being said, you are totally right that her actions up to this point should not prevent her from having a relationship with Yuma in the future, however it is my opinion that for that relationship to work she would have to change the way she acts, as if she were to act the same way while in a relationship I can envision that being problematic.

Thing is, the matter of him being in the relationship IS just him being there first. His feelings are not the most important thing here. If he gets hurt, he rips off a band aide. He moves on, assuming he's well adjusted enough. Yuma discovering herself is by far more important, and if it takes Hotaru not being perfect, so be it. She is in high school isn't she? She can act selfishly and not be Satan for it.

This is actually something I hadn't previously considered, and it is interesting. I suppose that in the long run it is more important that Yuma figure out her identity than her boyfriend keeps his girlfriend . After all they can break up and he can get a new girlfriend and be happy, the same can't be said of Yuma if she doesn't figure out what she wants. It seems to be in the best long term interests of both to break up, because is she's unhappy then she'll make him unhappy, maybe he'll be hurt, and that'll suck, but I suppose it's also an unavoidable part of life that he'll get over. It terms of Hotaru's age affecting her selfishness, I don't personally believe that youth should be an excuse for hurtful behavior, though thinking about them as the actions of a hormonal teenage, does make them more understandable, after all what teenager hasn't made dumb mistakes.I don't believe her behavior to be inexcusable I just think it needs to be reflected upon so that she may improve, and think more about how her actions might affect others.

It's been interesting for me to see someone's else perspective on this, and has actually led to some changes in my own stance on the matter, so thank you for this.

last edited at Jul 29, 2015 2:04AM

Erm, I've read that word NTR on here a lot, what does it mean exactly? Is it just cheating?

Its cheating that makes the reader feel awful, too.... Short for netorare

Wasn't netorare meaning that someones love interest is forced to cheat because of blackmail or other reasons and in the end she is forced to break up because either she had so much sex that she loves the blackmailing guy now or she is doing it for her boyfriend because "she is defiled and no longer good for him"?

So in this case if one of those girls netorare the other, then it's 100% yuri end for both of them.

Ooooh okay, thanks for your answers :)
Well, I suggest Hotaru "defiles" that girl then huehuehue xD
Still, I don't like girls that play games with your mind like that, just reminds me too much of some girls I used to know shudder
Makes for good drama in manga I guess but sucks when you're involved with someone like that ><

The way some are hating Hotaru it's going to be fun to see their reactions when the rest is translated.

I know what it is, giving her a plot justification wont change the fact she behaves like a bitch and remains dislike-able . "Oh boohoo, feel for me, I have my reasons" feels like a desperate, plot-wise, justification for her behavior.

I feel for him, poor sap's about to get his girlfriend stolen. I'm honestly surprised about the lack of empathy for the guy, and support of Hotaru's actions, if their positions were reversed it's likely that exactly the opposite reaction would be produced. Just because it's yuri doesn't mean it should be supported regardless of context and character actions. Hotaru's the one in the wrong not him, but she's going to win anyway, just because, and through of fault of his own dude's gonna end up alone, so yeah I feel for him.

Your opinion baffles me. The guy is far less interesting being on the periphery of the story. Why would people focus on that? In defence of a relationship which seems superficial at best?

I empathize with him as a human being. It doesn't matter that I don't really know anything about him, what matters is that I see him in an unfortunate situation and I feel bad for him, because I know that I would feel bad in the same situation ( heck maybe me being so bland makes it easier to self insert.)
I will concede that Hotaru is, at this moment in time, a more interesting character, as we have a greater understanding of her background and have seen more of her behavior, but doesn't mean that I am under any obligation to like her, because frankly so far she has been pretty awful, disregarding the feelings of both Yuma and her boyfriend. So just because we know less about him doesn't mean we should treat the guy as if he isn't real. In any story I'll root for the person who I can most empathize with, who I have a reason to support, and in this case my reason for supporting him is that, knowing little about him he is nicer, and a better friend to Yuma, than Hotaru, who thus far has acted rather callously. It isn't about who might make the more interesting story it's about who I prefer as a character and that is most definitely the guy.

^ this, blackhaired will continue to be a bitch forcing herself onto the MC throughout the story, then it will be "justified" ch5 and there is were we "should cheer for her, cuz [plot justification], we should feel bad for her boohoo let her have yuri ending QQ melodrama angst".

No thanks. I go for entertainment in general where there are characters I like. Here the MC is a nothing-character very bland, and the blackhaired is quite a detestable bitch. Other characters are basically background characters. Theres nothing of interest for me here.

I don't understand. Why you guys hate Hotaru so much?

I don't understand. Why you guys hate Hotaru so much?

Probably because for some people cheating is some kind of ultimate evil, don't matter any reason for doing it or context, you're a monster that don't deserve forgiveness and must be hated and judged all your life for doing it.

Erm, I've read that word NTR on here a lot, what does it mean exactly? Is it just cheating?

Its cheating that makes the reader feel awful, too.... Short for netorare

That's not entirely true. NTR, to the Japanese, covers netorare, netorase, netori, and netoru. It's the same verb, different conjugation.

last edited at Jul 29, 2015 3:40AM

I don't understand. Why you guys hate Hotaru so much?

Character is doing something despicable, relentlessly forcing herself onto someone who is already in a relationship masking it as innocent teasing/messing around.

Probably because for some people cheating is some kind of ultimate evil, don't matter any reason for doing it or context, you're a monster that don't deserve forgiveness and must be hated and judged all your life for doing it.

Gotta love strawmans.

Erm, I've read that word NTR on here a lot, what does it mean exactly? Is it just cheating?

Its cheating that makes the reader feel awful, too.... Short for netorare

That's not entirely true. NTR, to the Japanese, covers netorare, netorase, netori, and netoru. It's the same verb, different conjugation.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Netorare
definition #2, #1 is funny tho.

last edited at Jul 29, 2015 3:45AM

From personal experience, there's 3 POV in a cheating situation. The one stealing, the one being stolen, and the one being cheated on. Frankly, the guilt should be on the one being stolen. Because they are the one who choose ultimately.

So here it's Yuma's choice. Hotaru is a trigger and not to be hated.

last edited at Jul 29, 2015 3:46AM

Erm, I've read that word NTR on here a lot, what does it mean exactly? Is it just cheating?

Its cheating that makes the reader feel awful, too.... Short for netorare

That's not entirely true. NTR, to the Japanese, covers netorare, netorase, netori, and netoru. It's the same verb, different conjugation.

It's only four types of NTR? What's the difference between them?

last edited at Jul 29, 2015 3:46AM

If someone must be disliked, it should be Yuma. Because she's the one cheating after all.

i've been waiting for this! I love NTR, especially since it's from Kodama Naoko-sensei

I don't understand. Why you guys hate Hotaru so much?

Character is doing something despicable, relentlessly forcing herself onto someone

Hotaru just plain isn't doing that though. The one time Yuma actually told her to stop she did, and the next move she made was way less intense.

It's gross that she can't be honest about what she's doing but she's also probably terrified of Yuma hating her if she were honest about why she's doing this stuff. It's 100% wrong but understandable.

From personal experience, there's 3 POV in a cheating situation. The one stealing, the one being stolen, and the one being cheated on. Frankly, the guilt should be on the one being stolen. Because they are the one who choose ultimately.

So here it's Yuma's choice. Hotaru is a trigger and not to be hated.

Some people are basically ignoring Yuma's agency yeah. In this chapter it's understandable though, her new relationship wiith Hotaru is shown as something disorienting and confusing atm, just starting to become something exciting at the very end. She hasn't actually exercised much agency yet.

I don't understand. Why you guys hate Hotaru so much?

Character is doing something despicable, relentlessly forcing herself onto someone

Hotaru just plain isn't doing that though. The one time Yuma actually told her to stop she did, and the next move she made was way less intense.

So.. If i know a girl and she is in a relationship, I can get all over her and take advantage of her confusion proceeding until she says "stop"? Then it does not count as forcing myself onto her? Instead of ya know, respecting someone and not aggressively move onto them like that in the first place? Sounds about right!

last edited at Jul 29, 2015 4:35AM

Why are people complaining about relationship ethics here? This is clearly tagged 'cheating', there's even a huge 'NTR' written on the cover, did someone go in expecting 'ethical cheating'?

Sorry to bring my own story in the mix, but while I never cheated, I've been in the shoes of two of the characters. I stole a guy's girlfriend and I've been cheated on (This is karma I know) and both experiences have been valuable in term of growth. Yes, you feel like shit and beyond angry when being cheated on. But when you're the one stealing, you feel really empowered, especially when you're a girl stealing a girl. Maybe I'm awful but it was a nice feeling at the time. And when I was in the reverse situation, I felt terrible, but the irony was not lost on me. But I can say that I always was commited to my relationships so I don't think as myself as a bad person. I just act on what I really want and I don't lie.

Things like this happen all the time. Just lying is the bad thing here. And it's Yuma doing it.

last edited at Jul 29, 2015 5:00AM

Though I'm a fan of yuri, I'm still feel sorry for Takeda.
He didn't do anything wrong. The only mistake is he is a boy character in yuri manga.
Sigh.... NTR isn't my type.

In a triangle, at least one is bound to be hurt, if not the 3. Polyamory is real hard to make it work irl. I'd rather support the samesex relationship, because I know how much extra effort it takes to make it happen compared to an het one.