Pacing my friend. Girl Friends took 6 chapters to even get slightly beyond pure friendship. There was quite a bit of build-up just to reach subtext.
Density of actual developements and events is just not comparable. YagaKimi reached the first confession in more or less chapter 1 and the first kiss in chapter 2 lol

And by five volumes the primary conflicts were all resolved and they were in a happy, committed relationship and I believe had banged? It's been awhile since I read it.

You can also argue as to whether the confession and kiss in the first few chapters really represent that much development when the other character didn't get the courage to vocalize -her- feelings until Chapter 34. :p

My point is, at some stage we have to average things out and look at the overall trend. For SCIENCE.

Yeah well, the conflict in Girl Friends was thinly veiled all along. It all was hinging on hesitation and an arbitrary misunderstanding on Mari's side. It was obvious that all issues would be resolved the moment they had one real talk.
That is why misunderstanding based drama is cheap in my eyes.

What makes Girl Friends a slower burn are the little to no challenges or realizations before the big confrontation. YagaKimi is slow itself, but there is always a goal and a hurdle to consider. Realizations are made fairly consistently and alter the course of the story, while not losing the overall goal. Yuu's confession had nothing to do with courage and all with an inability to contain her feelings anymore... as well as her pain.

And just to be clear, I adore Girl Friends. A slow burn is by no means a sign of bad writing. The development is being taken seriously and the heartache felt quite real (albeit forced due to the aforementioned misunderstandings).

So I guess my point remains: You can't even compare the density of the two, so the amount of volumes is irrelevant. YagaKimi was always more focused.

That along with the “those earlier kisses don’t count because reasons” trope that the two stories share, of course.

Unless this is a metaphor for their "relationship" not counting, I think you might be reading a different manga. The kisses were never said to not count. Touko takes them quite seriously and Yuu simply plays the exasperated receiver that isn't swayed by them. She never once says or implies that she thinks the kisses don't mean anything or don't count. In fact her not being able to be the initiator until her confession was because they actually meant something.

last edited at Oct 4, 2018 1:29PM

Unless this is a metaphor for their "relationship" not counting, I think you might be reading a different manga. The kisses were never said to not count. Touko takes them quite seriously and Yuu simply plays the exasperated receiver that isn't swayed by them. She never once says or implies that she thinks the kisses don't mean anything or don't count. In fact her not being able to be the initiator until her confession was because they actually meant something.

Not so much a “metaphor” as a mark or a symptom of the bizarre asymmetry of the initial setup—Touko takes the kisses “seriously, ” but they must NOT be returned with the same emotional weight with which they are given. Her request at the sports festival for Yuu to initiate a kiss was, as they both realized when the time came, asking for something outside of the current boundaries of their agreed-upon relationship.

The similarity is basically that the kisses in both stories (up to a certain point) did not “count” in the sense that the kisses were understood differently, and often inaccurately, by the two people involved.

The next time Yuu and Touko kiss when they both know they want to and they both know the other one wants to because they love each other will be the first such kiss.

last edited at Oct 4, 2018 5:11PM

Not so much a “metaphor” as a mark or a symptom of the bizarre asymmetry of the initial setup—Touko takes the kisses “seriously, ” but they must NOT be returned with the same emotional weight with which they are given. Her request at the sports festival for Yuu to initiate a kiss was, as they both realized when the time came, asking for something outside of the current boundaries of their agreed-upon relationship.

The similarity is basically that the kisses in both stories (up to a certain point) did not “count” in the sense that the kisses were understood differently, and often inaccurately, by the two people involved.

The next time Yuu and Touko kiss when they both know they want to and they both know the other one wants to because they love each other will be the first such kiss.

Sorry, but this once I must say you are just plain wrong. You created an arbitrary condition for the kisses to "count" yourself, which was by no means displayed by the story itself. Whether Yuu was in love with Touko or not, the kisses were always serious from Touko's side at the very least. There was no difference in understanding there. It was clear cut that she wanted to kiss Yuu, because she loved her.

Yuu subconsciously realized that if she were to actively kiss Touko she would be unable to close her eyes from her true feelings anymore. She took Touko's kisses very seriously and had to resist what they were causing in her heart.
Touko on the other hand was disappointed, because she truly did want Yuu to kiss her, showing that she didn't believe it overstepped their boundaries (which is more connected to her unintentionally cruel negligence of Yuu's feelings).

I simply don't see your point. Girl Friends kisses did not "count" because both parties did not understand what they were doing and what it meant, unclear about the others or their own feelings. They literally used excuses to make them not count.
There is no such pretext in YagaKimi. Kisses are not misunderstood, feelings are. And even that one-sidedly by Touko to be perfectly honest.

Not so much a “metaphor” as a mark or a symptom of the bizarre asymmetry of the initial setup—Touko takes the kisses “seriously, ” but they must NOT be returned with the same emotional weight with which they are given. Her request at the sports festival for Yuu to initiate a kiss was, as they both realized when the time came, asking for something outside of the current boundaries of their agreed-upon relationship.

The similarity is basically that the kisses in both stories (up to a certain point) did not “count” in the sense that the kisses were understood differently, and often inaccurately, by the two people involved.

The next time Yuu and Touko kiss when they both know they want to and they both know the other one wants to because they love each other will be the first such kiss.

Sorry, but this once I must say you are just plain wrong. You created an arbitrary condition for the kisses to "count" yourself, which was by no means displayed by the story itself.

You're totally over-reading what I'm saying--the word "counts" seems to have been taken as having some sort of regulatory meaning I care nothing about.

All I'm saying is that, as at one point in Girl Friends, "kisses" and "feelings" in this story have yet to align and be mutually understood the same way by both parties.

And when that happens--champagne and fireworks.

Sorry, but this once I must say you are just plain wrong. You created an arbitrary condition for the kisses to "count" yourself, which was by no means displayed by the story itself.

You're totally over-reading what I'm saying--the word "counts" seems to have been taken as having some sort of regulatory meaning I care nothing about.

All I'm saying is that, as at one point in Girl Friends, "kisses" and "feelings" in this story have yet to align and be mutually understood the same way by both parties.

And when that happens--champagne and fireworks.

Uhuh... Except you were rather specifically focused on the kissing, which makes your point moot, as explained above.
But alas, I won't pressure you over something as banal as phrasing. If you want to twist it this way then fine. Let's hope their feelings align sooner rather than later.

last edited at Oct 5, 2018 10:42AM

Well, let’s drop the nitpicking of what was intended as a casual aside, and let me go back to my main point: the strangeness of the basic setup for the story, and how notable it is that we’ve been convinced to basically ignore its weirdness.

Lots of romance stories have “pretend” or “practice” kissing, which generally is, or becomes, more meaningful to one or both parties.

Lots of stories have “pretend” relationships—in order to make a third party jealous, to mollify parents, to cover up some other relationship, whatever.

Lots of stories have “test” relationships, to see if something further evolves, or to give beginners in romance some low-stakes initial experience, etc.

Lots of stories have asymmetrical relationships, where two people agree to go out, both knowing that one person (Person A) is (initially) more romantically inclined than Person B. In this case, the implicit or explicit narrative goal almost always is that Person B will fall in love with Person A.

However, I can’t think of any other example of a story where Person A sincerely is deeply in love with Person B but will remain in the relationship only as long as Person B does not ever reciprocate.

It’s a real tribute to Nakatani’s skill as a storyteller, especially in establishing and maintaining a stable tone for the story and creating a plausible and compelling dynamic between the main characters, that the whole thing doesn’t immediately go off the rails, with the audience screaming, “That’s totally messed up! And it would never happen anyway! And is messed up!”

last edited at Oct 5, 2018 11:52AM

Why do I have a feeling this is gonna have a troll Touko x Sayaka ending and Yuu x Forever alone ending?

Plottwist, it's gonna be Sayaka x Yuu endgame.

However, I can’t think of any other example of a story where Person A sincerely is deeply in love with Person B but will remain in the relationship only as long as Person B does not ever reciprocate.

I can think of one. A oneshot story by Masakazu Katsura. The title was "M" (I think) and it was about a couple of masochists and the weird-ass games they played. The leading lady made a point that the more she was desired, the more she was loved, the bigger the turnoff. So, yeah, they could be together and everything... as long as the other one remained aloof and indifferent to her.

Honestly, the whole situation reminds me of that old Groucho Marx joke: “I refuse to belong to a club that will accept someone like me as a member!” Touko's version of this absurd statement would be: “I refuse to be in a relationship with someone who will stoop so low as to love somebody as hateful as me!”

We always knew this relationship was messed up. The only reason it worked more or less was because Yuu is someone who lets herself get taken advantage of easily. If she was even a tiny bit more selfish this would have broken apart around chapter 3. lol

However, I can’t think of any other example of a story where Person A sincerely is deeply in love with Person B but will remain in the relationship only as long as Person B does not ever reciprocate.

I can think of one. A oneshot story by Masakazu Katsura. The title was "M" (I think) and it was about a couple of masochists and the weird-ass games they played. The leading lady made a point that the more she was desired, the more she was loved, the bigger the turnoff. So, yeah, they could be together and everything... as long as the other one remained aloof and indifferent to her.

Honestly, the whole situation reminds me of that old Groucho Marx joke: “I refuse to belong to a club that will accept someone like me as a member!” Touko's version of this absurd statement would be: “I refuse to be in a relationship with someone who will stoop so low as to love somebody as hateful as me!”

Great point—the obvious way for this to go was either toward twisted sex games or absurd comedy. Holding it on its course as a combination of charming romantic comedy and low-key drama has required an expert skipper at the wheel of a finely tuned craft.

We always knew this relationship was messed up. The only reason it worked more or less was because Yuu is someone who lets herself get taken advantage of easily. If she was even a tiny bit more selfish this would have broken apart around chapter 3. lol

Ultimately I believe this is what Yuu's character arc will be. She must learn to be more assertive of her individuality and with that develop a healthy amount of selfishness which she is currently lacking.

Great point—the obvious way for this to go was either toward twisted sex games or absurd comedy. Holding it on its course as a combination of charming romantic comedy and low-key drama has required an expert skipper at the wheel of a finely tuned craft.

Word. I've just finished reading the 35 chapters (plus extras) in one sitting, and I'm amazed at how good this manga is. The exploration of slightly warped psychologies and behaviors in teenaged school kids is at the level of, say, Fumiko Fumi's best stuff.

Now I'm really worried about the coming anime. Hope they get it right. :/

Now I'm really worried about the coming anime. Hope they get it right. :/

Episode 1 was good. Aside from some questionable POV shots, the whole thing was really beauitful and well done. I especially liked some of the eye-transitions and subtle motions they put in.
Still have to get used to Yuu's voice though. Her voice actress is great, but she sounds too cute/innocent to be honest. I always imagined Yuu with more of an edge or slightly deeper voice.

last edited at Oct 5, 2018 4:37PM

Nene posted:

However, I can’t think of any other example of a story where Person A sincerely is deeply in love with Person B but will remain in the relationship only as long as Person B does not ever reciprocate.

I can think of one. A oneshot story by Masakazu Katsura. The title was "M" (I think) and it was about a couple of masochists and the weird-ass games they played. The leading lady made a point that the more she was desired, the more she was loved, the bigger the turnoff. So, yeah, they could be together and everything... as long as the other one remained aloof and indifferent to her.

I'm not sure it's the right interpretation of "M".

If I recall correctly, the protagonists just hover on the brink of a sexual relationship (including "just the tip"), but never actually do it. In the end, they acknowledge they love each other (so the reciprocation is a requisite), but they decide to go their separate way because suffering (as "M"asochists) is more important to them than being together.

So, they will live their life separately, marry, have children, etc... all the while knowing they will never ever see their "true" love again and that they are with someone else.

At the time I read it, I found it depressing, but a nice psychological twist.

This is a oneshot about extreme masochism (with nice drawings by Katsura), not the same type of relationship than Bloom Into You.

last edited at Oct 5, 2018 4:50PM

I'm not sure it's the right interpretation of "M".

If I recall correctly, the protagonists just hover on the brink of a sexual relationship (including "just the tip"), but never actually do it. In the end, they acknowledge they love each other (so the reciprocation is a requisite), but they decide to go their separate way because suffering (as "M"asochists) is more important to them than being together.

So, they will live their life separately, marry, have children, etc... all the while knowing they will never ever see their "true" love again and that they are with someone else.

At the time I read it I found it depressing, but a nice psychological twist.

This is a oneshot about extreme masochism (with nice drawings by Katsua), not the same type of relationship than Bloom Into You.

There is a difference between masochism and a mental defect... Pretty sure those two characters are suffering the latter.
What a horrible story. =w=

I found it here

Make your own opinion. It's still an interesting read IMO.

I'm not sure it's the right interpretation of "M".

Always nice to meet other people who've read Katsura's manga. <3

I used to write translations of his stuff, both long series and oneshots, and post them in the VGAI mailing list (which was actually more of a generic Katsura ML, not just about VGAI). This happened at a time when scanlation wasn't a thing and the only way for a non-Japanese-fluent person to read and understand Japanese manga was to download the raw scans and read them with a printed copy of the English translation in hand. I worked my ass off at those translations... O tempora, o mores...

It's good that people have different interpretations of the ambiguities in his manga. That's how he, Katsura himself, always liked it. ^.~

The first episode of the anime is out. Feels a tad more… sappy than I remembered, but they seem to have nailed the "visual storytelling" part, and that's important. Maybe a little too much eye-twitching and blushing though. Sayaka looks a little weird to me for some reason, but I love the overall coloring, very warm and fuzzy. The music does the job.

Not much else to say; it was a rather slow episode, but then again this is a slow story.

last edited at Oct 5, 2018 7:37PM

I have yet to see the first episode, but I read that they covered just one chapter in the first episode? Does that mean that the anime will only cover about 15 chapters? (Since it will be 13 episodes long) That would be a real bummer..

Episode 1 was good. Aside from some questionable POV shots, the whole thing was really beauitful and well done. I especially liked some of the eye-transitions and subtle motions they put in.
Still have to get used to Yuu's voice though. Her voice actress is great, but she sounds too cute/innocent to be honest. I always imagined Yuu with more of an edge or slightly deeper voice.

I think they made good choices with voice actresses for Yuu, Touko, and Sayaka.

I find that Yuu is rather innocent with her view of love that starts as reliant on shojo-manga. And in how she is timid with her emotions and a bit submissive to others. Sayak's voice has just a touch of mostly controlled ego with the subtle "Hime" voice. And Touko's matches her use of pleasantries.

I'm not sure which questionable POV shots you mean

We always knew this relationship was messed up. The only reason it worked more or less was because Yuu is someone who lets herself get taken advantage of easily. If she was even a tiny bit more selfish this would have broken apart around chapter 3. lol

Messed up has such a negative and "crazy" connotation to it so i disagree there and that Yuu is letting herself be taken advantage of. Touko certainly is taking advantage of Yuu's feelings and kindness, at least to start though not maliciously, but Yuu has also been a willing and enabling participant. I see it as more that both are not certain of their emotions, uncertain how to interact healthfully with each other, and are having to take the time to learn of each other and of themselves before being able to move forward properly. Certainly they are having their troubles, their relationships hasn't been the best, but they have helped each other.

I do agree that Yuu is a bit selfless, but if she had a better understanding of love then I don't think she would have enabled Touko for so long. The stories theme, blooming, is an act of coming into one's full self. I used to think that "Bloom into You" meant the buildup of the relationships, but I think now that "Bloom into You" means possibly that mostly it is Touko and Yuu talking to themselves. They are blooming into their own full selves.

It's not the best relationship ever, but when are they ever? They do genuinely love each other, even if mistaken, and are not trying not wanting to hurt one another.

last edited at Oct 5, 2018 9:31PM

Just watched the anime and gotta say, it's great. The music, visuals, and POVs are nice, good way to start the episode/ series. Can't wait 'till next episode and further on! Although, I think the anime will end around chapter 34.

Where can I find the anime with subs?

^
Here:
https://youtu.be/VytaWevQ3yU

^
Here:
https://youtu.be/VytaWevQ3yU

Thank you!

Messed up has such a negative and "crazy" connotation to it so i disagree there and that Yuu is letting herself be taken advantage of. Touko certainly is taking advantage of Yuu's feelings and kindness, at least to start though not maliciously, but Yuu has also been a willing and enabling participant.

Yeah, she's interested in the sexxay, lol.
I liked a lot that side of the character. Schoolgirls in manga often seem to have zero libido (or close to), and I always thought that it was unrealistic. They should be more like the girls in Ayame 14, with a strong interest in all things ecchi. In that aspect, Yuu doesn't disappoint: in the first chapters, she clearly says that even though she doesn't love Touko she's willing to do lover-like things with her, like kissing, deep kissing, petting, etc. Why? Because she wanna try those things and Touko is a perfect practice partner because Touko is so cool and beautiful!!! Now that's what I call a realistic, believable reason, lol. This sort of admission is so uncommon even Touko is a bit scandalized, which imho is kinda dumb: she should instead have praised Yuu for her candid sincerity!