That’s why when we get to the end of Chapter 22 Yuu’s character development is so clear and so powerful—she knows what she wants and is finally willing to state it forthrightly to herself: “I want to change [Touko].”

Yeah that part was great. Yuu's sister and her friends talked about how Yuu is a hardworker, but she was always very indecisive about whether she should start a new activity or not. The explanation for this, according to Natsuki's dialogue about Yuu's past, is that Yuu was indecisive about things because she lacked a real interest in those things. Her desire to help Touko was the first time she wished and wanted to do something from the bottom of her heart, and it was an awesome character development.

last edited at Mar 28, 2018 10:16PM

I'm loving the discussion. But I guess I'm the only one that wants P.A Works to adapt Yagakimi. I think they have proven themselves worthy. They tend to care for the little details and source material, like with Uchouten Kazoku. I think they would do a great job.

I love how the latest chapter is much longer than before. Can’t wait for the next half of the play! Nakatani Nio surely knows how to make the readers hooked and eager. No wonder this manga ranked higher than we expected.

last edited at Mar 29, 2018 12:52AM

I'm loving the discussion. But I guess I'm the only one that wants P.A Works to adapt Yagakimi. I think they have proven themselves worthy. They tend to care for the little details and source material, like with Uchouten Kazoku. I think they would do a great job.

You are not alone.

shojie07 posted:

I love how the latest chapter is much longer than before. Can’t wait for the next half of the play! Nakatani Nio surely knows how to make the readers hooked and eager. No wonder this manga ranked higher than we expected.

Divine justice after ALL we had to wait lol

This is really shaping up to be just one of my favorite manga's in general yuri or not. I love all the characters and how diverse they are. I also like how the author seems to avoid a lot of the cliches that seem endemic to the genre.

The order of this part is messed up for me?
Edit: Chapter 30

last edited at Mar 29, 2018 5:15PM

The order of this part is messed up for me?

I thought it was only **like that for me. I was confused.

last edited at Mar 29, 2018 5:47PM

The order of this part is messed up for me?

I thought it was only liked that for me. I was confused.

Looks like a simple numbering issue. Single digit pages don't have leading zeros.

The order of this part is messed up for me?
Edit: Chapter 30

As far as I know the order is in right place. I understood it just fine. If you look in other websites the order is all the same.

The order of this part is messed up for me?
Edit: Chapter 30

As far as I know the order is in right place. I understood it just fine. If you look in other websites the order is all the same.

Then I'd say it's a global error. That is, unless the author did it this way, but I don't see the logic in putting the beginning of the play at the end of the chapter.

The order of this part is messed up for me?
Edit: Chapter 30

As far as I know the order is in right place. I understood it just fine. If you look in other websites the order is all the same.

Then I'd say it's a global error. That is, unless the author did it this way, but I don't see the logic in putting the beginning of the play at the end of the chapter.

It may be Dynasty's mistake. I checked the raws and 4s version has the same order. Why don't you check 4s folder and download the chapter from Mediafire instead?
https://m.mediafire.com/folder/3xg5q53brg7c9/release
Edit: there's nothing wrong with the order. The first part of the play was over, that's why there was an intermission. The second part is about to start and it'll happen next chapter.

last edited at Mar 29, 2018 6:39PM

Would it be illegal if I use the plot for a school play IRL? Lmao

last edited at Mar 29, 2018 6:31PM

Would it be illegal if I use the plot for a school play IRL? Lmao

Right? Omg, I love this play so much. It's such a cool idea. I also did a one-act play recently and it's nowhere near as neat as this.

I love this.

This is why all of us were so excited over her and this work, I think. This is one of the things I would use to show that manga can be really artistic in writing terms and that yuri manga in particular doesn't have to exploitive or cliched. The play had a huge, long, glacial buildup, but thanks to that, we almost feel like one of the attendees. Her mom is a nice touch, too. Poor thing. She clearly sees all the actual Touko elements Yuu and her writer friend put in. And the brother is a stand-in for who, again? The dead sister.

not to be a total downer or anything but i was just wondering if anyone else finds the story and writing/dialogue itself to be boring (ever since the beginning)? only sticking around because its yuri

Huh, sure. I'm curious about what you mean when you say that the characterisation is ambiguous, because I think it's not.

Oh, my bad! I thought you meant for the visual narration. I didn't elaborate on the characterisation as much. I'll do so now.

imo, you're maybe taking my words a little more strongly than I'm intending, which might be a fault in how I'm expressing myself. I don't think the characters are inscrutable; I just think that there's room for debate, hence the ambiguity. I don't think something is either 100% ambiguous or 100% declarative, or we either know 100% of everything or 100% of nothing. Similarly, I don't think something is 100% subtle or 100% obvious.

For some examples, the recent debate about Yuu is a good one. How far is she honest with herself, and how far is her honesty an accurate reflection of the situation? How far does Touko really not want to be loved, and why does she have the beliefs that lead her to that conclusion?

A more understated one is about Sayaka: why ddid she give up on Touko so easily? Because she was discouraged by that encounter with and reminder of her first love? Because she was too afraid to upset the status quo by competing genuinely with Yuu? Because she thinks her chance has been squandered through her own passivity and is punishing herself for it by taking herself out the equation, thinking she doesn't deserve Touko? Because doesn't believe she's what Touko needs, because she's a coward, and Yuu is braver? How far are any of these beliefs about herself actually true, and how many of them are just Sayaka's low self-esteem, or her thinking giving up is easier than rejection?

I think, for me, ambiguous characterisation is more that the manga doesn't come out and say, "here's what I think and why", and instead tries to sort through their feelings like a normal person. All of their soliloquies are in-character, and reflect their perception, and are told in their voice, and don't feel like Nakatani is delivering me line notes from her brainstorm.

When Sayaka says, "I'm sad, I don't want to do this, I'm a coward and Touko will never love me, I should stop trying and accept the truth,", that doesn't mean that's all there is to it. There's an internal emotional logic that Nakatani doesn't take us through, beyond showing us Sayaka's reaction to her realisation about the play. The monologue shows her processing her feelings and coming to a conclusion, but that doesn't mean the conclusion is accurate.

It's him who helped create the Shaft we know today & he basically directs almost every one of their shows, sometimes with a co-director, from Hidamari Sketch to Saiyonara Zetsubou Sensei to Arakawa Under the Bridge to the Monogatari series to Madoka & all the recent shows, too.

Interesting! Thanks for the information.

I don't think original authors are given that much power over the adaptation like you're implying

No, they don't. I'm just describing what I want to see, ideally.

Subtlety =/= obscurity. The way Nakatani uses visual storytelling is deliberate & intentional, but it doesn't distract from the reading experience. Everything flows naturally and is carefully integrated into the contexts of the given scenes.

In the same vein, subtlety =/= a lack of invasiveness. I'd describe Nakatani's visual narrative style as natural, as well, but I wouldn't describe it as subtle.

I'm also confused about your definition of subtlety. As I've never referred to subtlety as being synonymous with obscurity, I'm going to ignore that as being a misinterpretation, and mention that "obviousness" is consistently and universally referred to as an antonym of "subtlety". If something is obvious, it is, by its definition, not subtle.

This may just be my autism, though! Forgive me if seems a bit pedantic - it's a genuine inquiry.

To repeat myself a little, I don't think something has to be 100% one way or the other. I think there's room for something to float in the middle. YagaKimi's visual storytelling has subtlety within it, absolutely, and Nakatani puts a lot of effort into making her metaphors seem part of the natural progression of events (which, imo, pays off), but I wouldn't consider subtlety of visual style to be a defining feature of her work. In reference to your example: that, to me, is exceptionally obvious, and not what I'd refer to as subtle at all. There are subtle elements to it, which you illustrate, but it's a very clear break from reality and regular perception, which is immediately highlighted with the contrast between the two panels in the page, and the purpose of it is instantly clear. I don't have to think about the meaning of it or why it's there, and I'm not left examining the panel for hidden meanings, because it's all obvious.

I do understand your points about SHAFT, though. I just don't think they'd be the complete reimagining of the source that others do. SHAFT's main drawbacks in naturalistic visual storytelling is the fact that, well... Those criticisms are applied to stories which aren't, by nature, naturalistic. They're supernatural stories with supernatural content. Their non-supernatural animations are a lot more subdued, and I believe they could channel that again. That's all.

I haven't read any of the posts pass this one yet, so you might have brought up other points I'm not addressing. Working all day so I won't be able to keep up or respond quickly, but it's been a fun discussion.

It has! I'm very much enjoying myself; I hope y'all are too.

I can't into Mecha. Sorry man.

We all have different tastes. It's what makes the world interesting.

All of their soliloquies are in-character, and reflect their perception, and are told in their voice, and don't feel like Nakatani is delivering me line notes from her brainstorm.

Not to interrupt the ambiguity, etc. conversation, just commenting on this part from a slightly different angle; i.e., genre convention.

In a lot of yuri manga (and other types as well, to be sure), it’s often the case that a character’s speech to other people is at odds with their thoughts for much of the story, as when they’re hiding their true feelings from the object of their affection, or hiding the nature of their relationship from others (or whatever). Then when we are shown their thoughts (often at the end of a scene), we get a definitive indication of their actual feelings, and many times the most important point of the story is when they finally say out loud something that we know they’ve been explicitly thinking to themselves for some time.

[An almost random example of this less-than-candid speech vs. true thoughts rhythm is Aki Eda’s (very funny) Unchanging Days.]

This story very often doesn’t work like that; readers have to triangulate, as it were, among what characters say aloud, what they think to themselves, and how they act. It’s not unique in that respect, and doing it isn’t especially complicated, but it does call for a slightly different kind of attention by readers than do many other apparently similar stories.

For instance, I suspect I am one among many readers who have been thinking, “C’mon, Yuu, you can do it—just say it to yourself in a completely legible thought balloon: ‘I love Touko.’” OK, she’d probably need to start out calling her “Nanami-senpai” in her love thoughts, but you take my meaning.

(And I may be simply restating your point here.)

This story very often doesn’t work like that; readers have to triangulate, as it were, among what characters say aloud, what they think to themselves, and how they act. It’s not unique in that respect, and doing it isn’t especially complicated, but it does call for a slightly different kind of attention by readers than do many other apparently similar stories.

This is an excellent elaboration on what I'm talking about, and I'm glad you made it! I know it sounds so uncomplicated, as you say, but I've noticed that it's incredibly rare for how uncomplicated it is, and I love seeing Nakatani do it.

I remember watching Mai-HiME and realising that there was so much going on behind the scenes that was simply just... Never stated, and that you had to interpret away from what you were given. What you were given was clear, but you had to decide for yourself what it meant, whether or not it was true, and how that lined up with how they behaved.

Mai-HiME spoilers below:

One of my favourite examples is Shizuru's descent into madness. She keeps repeating, in broken sentence fragments, that she'll try to make Natsuki hers, but, whenever she says this, it's always accompanied by her fleeing the scene and leaving Natsuki alone. All she does is show up when Natsuki is in danger, and otherwise stays completely out of her way. Natsuki has to seek her out, and Nao has to cause her to come out of hiding by threatening Natsuki.

However, we do know Shizuru is filled with self-hatred regarding her sexuality. She has a classic example of internalised homophobia: she does think of herself as predatory, and she does think of her love and immoral, and she does think that her merely being near Natsuki is a violation. Granted, she does kiss her when asleep, which is somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy, as she also doesn't challenge Haruka's homophobic rant at all, because all Haruka is doing is reaffirming beliefs about herself that she already holds, and she thinks she's proven correct about herself. It's the prime cause of the misunderstanding when Natsuki overhears their conversation. When Natsuki reacts according to that misunderstanding, Shizuru views it as confirmation of her worst fears about herself.

When Shizuru repeats, then, that she'll try to make Natsuki hers, it's because that's what she genuinely thinks she's going to do. The fact that she's a lesbian and that she has this immoral, possessive love for Natsuki, exaggerated by the Carnival, that she kissed Natsuki when asleep, that her love for Natsuki has put Natsuki at risk of dying as Shizuru's most loved person, her acceptance of how Natsuki reacted without questioning it, are all things that reinforce this self-belief. That she never actually realises her desire to "try and make Natsuki hers" is irrelevant, because she was never going to. All she wanted was to hide away in the Student Council room and drink tea and pretend everything was normal, until Natsuki herself showed up and challenged her.

None of the above is told to the viewer. It's all extrapolated from her limited, repetitive dialogue, and how that dialogue contradicts her behaviour. We know Shizuru is in love, and that she views her love as destructive, but her recounting of that love isn't accurate to the actions she takes within the narrative.

Similarly, in YagaKimi, we know how the characters think they feel, but are those thoughts accurate? If they are accurate, how far are they a complete understanding of their situation?

Edit: Er, can you tell I like Mai-HiME? Haha.

last edited at Mar 29, 2018 10:45PM

This story very often doesn’t work like that; readers have to triangulate, as it were, among what characters say aloud, what they think to themselves, and how they act. It’s not unique in that respect, and doing it isn’t especially complicated, but it does call for a slightly different kind of attention by readers than do many other apparently similar stories.

This is an excellent elaboration on what I'm talking about, and I'm glad you made it! I know it sounds so uncomplicated, as you say, but I've noticed that it's incredibly rare for how uncomplicated it is, and I love seeing Nakatani do it.

I remember watching Mai-HiME and realising that there was so much going on behind the scenes that was simply just... Never stated, and that you had to interpret away from what you were given. What you were given was clear, but you had to decide for yourself what it meant, whether or not it was true, and how that lined up with how they behaved.

Mai-HiME spoilers below:

One of my favourite examples is Shizuru's descent into madness. She keeps repeating, in broken sentence fragments, that she'll try to make Natsuki hers, but, whenever she says this, it's always accompanied by her fleeing the scene and leaving Natsuki alone. All she does is show up when Natsuki is in danger, and otherwise stays completely out of her way. Natsuki has to seek her out, and Nao has to cause her to come out of hiding by threatening Natsuki.

However, we do know Shizuru is filled with self-hatred regarding her sexuality. She has a classic example of internalised homophobia: she does think of herself as predatory, and she does think of her love and immoral, and she does think that her merely being near Natsuki is a violation. Granted, she does kiss her when asleep, which is somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophercy, as she also doesn't challenge Haruka's homophobic rant at all, because all Haruka is doing is reaffirming beliefs about herself that she already holds, and she thinks she's proven correct about herself. It's the prime cause of the misunderstanding when Natsuki overhears their conversation. When Natsuki reacts according to that misunderstanding, Shizuru views it as confirmation of her worst fears about herself.

When Shizuru repeats, then, that she'll try to make Natsuki hers, it's because that's what she genuinely thinks she's going to do. The fact that she's a lesbian and that she has this immoral, possessive love for Natsuki, exaggerated by the Carnival, that she kissed Natsuki when asleep, that her love for Natsuki has put Natsuki at risk of dying as Shizuru's most loved person, her acceptance of how Natsuki reacted without questioning it, are all things that reinforce this self-belief. That she never actually realises her desire to "try and make Natsuki hers" is irrelevant, because she was never going to. All she wanted was to hide away in the Student Council room and drink tea and pretend everything was normal, until Natsuki herself showed up and challenged her.

None of the above is told to the viewer. It's all extrapolated from her limited, repetitive dialogue, and how that dialogue contradicts her behaviour. We know Shizuru is in love, and that she views her love as destructive, but her recounting of that love isn't accurate to the actions she takes within the narrative.

Similarly, in YagaKimi, we know how the characters think they feel, but are those thoughts accurate? If they are accurate, how far are they a complete understanding of their situation?

Shizuru is best girl.

Shizuru is best girl.

Honestly? I love the majority of the characters in that show. A very layered and complex cast, written with the utmost respect for female agency, and a deft hand at subtle characterisation. I won't get into it here, though.

Would it be illegal if I use the plot for a school play IRL? Lmao

That should be alright. No one can copyright an idea, they can only copyright the expression of that idea. So if you make a play based on this idea with your own characters in your own setting with dialogue written by your own hand, that should be fine.

Shizuru is best girl.

Honestly? I love the majority of the characters in that show. A very layered and complex cast, written with the utmost respect for female agency, and a deft hand at subtle characterisation. I won't get into it here, though.

i agree. i just couldn't help but say it.

last edited at Mar 29, 2018 10:57PM

i agree. i just couldn't help but say it.

It makes me happy to hear you do so. :)