By those, I just mean obvious or overt visual cues/effects. Not specifically saying that Shaft uses flower patterns or sparkle effects. It's been a while since I've seen Bakemonogatari, so I really can't comment on it. The most recent work by Shaft that I do remember is 3gatsu. I'm a fan of that anime, but the directing style is not subtle at all. Lots of zooming into faces/eyes turning as transitions. Sad scenes? Let's make everything blue or grey so everyone knows that it's sad. Happy scenes? Let's make everything super shiny with bubbles & bright warm colors to make everyone knows that it's happy. Characters are anxious? Let's distort their figures so everyone knows that they are not ok. It's very experimental and fun and I enjoy it well, but it's very in-your-face & that may make for an interesting adaptation that totally puts the story in a different light, but for now, I prefer something that really captures the essence of this series & also elevates it with audio/animation, rather than redefines it.

I haven't actually seen 3gatsu, but I saw it was directed by the same person as Bakemonogatari, and there were indeed a few zooms and closeups and such in that. In the same vein, though, there are also quite a few zooms and closeups in YagaKimi, except they're communicated through panels instead of through animation, so they're perhaps easier to gloss over.

Nakatani uses quite a few comparative visual choices herself, including some of the things you complain about: the entire background fading out to plain white with the focus solely on Touko; Yuu flinching at how brightly Touko seems to be sparkling before she kisses her; an extremely ominous few panels zooming in on Touko's expression and her eyes as Yuu wonders what's in them; a cutaway to Maki observing two people interacting on the stage of a play to show his emotional distance. Having her as an advisory presence could bring in SHAFT's creativeness to channel the essence of those scenes, while also avoiding too much of the more abstract elements that I think you're complaining about.

Having said that, though, I have to admit, I don't see anything wrong with their inventive use of colour. Perhaps it's a little overstated in 3gatsu, I couldn't say. But! Ohara Masakazu's use of colour in everything he's directed has been stellar, and I think his willingness to go outside the traditional palette is something I greatly admire about him and his works, especially since they're so closely connected to the tone of the scenes and the intent of the narrative. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Honestly, I'm not a fan of KyoAni as animators in general? I find that, while their anime are often very detailed and realistic, their characters often seem like a surreal platonic ideal of a highschooler, and their soundtracks are almost Key-like in how intent they are at (unsuccessfully) dragging an emotion out of me. It's very jarring for me, personally.

It's like... Everything has to look as close to reality as possible, but their characters also have to adhere to some weird standard of moe banality that leaves them feeling incredibly well-realised but also oddly vacuous in some fundamental, unsettling way. I often feel like KyoAni productions are the visual equivalent of aliens shoving slice-of-life and psychological thriller into a predictive text and transposing that onto their understanding of humanity.

Maybe that's just me! But KyoAni stuff always feels hollow, like it's chasing the nostalgia of a Ghibli film without any feeling behind it. All technical skill and no heart. That's absolutely not what I want for YagaKimi.

I love SHAFT’s work in both Bakemonogatari and 3Gatsu, and in the latter series the direction and visual treatment is arguably more understated compared to the source material, sometimes considerably so. They’d need to ratchet things back a great deal even more than that to work well for this series, though.

That said, I still mostly care about this becoming a fully realized work as a manga, and while I’d hate to see it connected to a botched production, I don’t have much invested in a possible anime one way or the other.

I haven't actually seen 3gatsu, but I saw it was directed by the same person as Bakemonogatari

Yes, cuz Akiyuki Shinbo is Shaft lol

Nakatani uses quite a few comparative visual choices herself, including some of the things you complain about: the entire background fading out to plain white with the focus solely on Touko; Yuu flinching at how brightly Touko seems to be sparkling before she kisses her; an extremely ominous few panels zooming in on Touko's expression and her eyes as Yuu wonders what's in them; a cutaway to Maki observing two people interacting on the stage of a play to show his emotional distance. Having her as an advisory presence could bring in SHAFT's creativeness to channel the essence of those scenes, while also avoiding too much of the more abstract elements that I think you're complaining about.

Over-exaggeration is the problem I have with Shaft in regards to adapting YagaKimi. What you describe are normal visual storytelling techniques that you can find in other anime/manga as well. Zoom in, close ups, & all that. I admit that I didn't do that great of a job describing it, but with Shaft, it's a lot more overt. Like there would be shots zooming into things or transitions that don't add anything to the narrative, kinda like their infamous head tilts.

Having said that, though, I have to admit, I don't see anything wrong with their inventive use of colour. Perhaps it's a little overstated in 3gatsu, I couldn't say.

I'm not saying it's wrong. The point I'm trying to make with Shaft is that the way they use colors or direct anime is not subtle or naturalistic, but rather overt & highly exaggerated. I love them, but I just don't see them adapting YagaKimi and still make it the subtle series that it is.

Maybe that's just me! But KyoAni stuff always feels hollow, like it's chasing the nostalgia of a Ghibli film without any feeling behind it. All technical skill and no heart. That's absolutely not what I want for YagaKimi.

Welp, can't do anything about you not liking KyoAni. Although I'm slightly raising my eyebrow at the fact that you implied that Maid Dragon was an adaptation without heart, but I'll digress. Just saying that when it comes to the directing style best fit YagaKimi, KyoAni takes the cake for me and it's not because I'm their biggest fan or anything, since Shaft is actually my favorite studio.

last edited at Mar 28, 2018 6:31AM

ergzay posted:

To be honest, I kinda want to see SHAFT animate it... They're often pretty unique with animation as a medium, and I think their willingness to focus on slow-paced dialogue without feeling the need to make it bombastic and ridiculous would serve this series well.

SHAFT would ruin this show. Absolutely not. The show would come out too dark or they would exaggerate scenes that shouldn't be exaggerated. After seeing what WIT Studio did with "Koi wa Ameagari no You ni", I would love to see their take on this manga.

Yup! I vote for WIT studio too or the ones who did Aoi hana

B-but... Yagakimi anime haven't been announced

Soon.

So uhh what is the rule for discussion a chapter that translations are out but just not on site?

So uhh what is the rule for discussion a chapter that translations are out but just not on site?

You can comment as much as you want to but you need to use spoilers tags everywhere lol

That said, I still mostly care about this becoming a fully realized work as a manga, and while I’d hate to see it connected to a botched production, I don’t have much invested in a possible anime one way or the other.

I agree! I think it works very well as a manga, and, while I'll be happy to get a faithful adaptation, I'm also not terribly invested. The awful manga of Mai-HiME didn't ruin the anime for me.

Yes, cuz Akiyuki Shinbo is Shaft lol

Do they only have the one director? I didn't know that.

Like there would be shots zooming into things or transitions that don't add anything to the narrative, kinda like their infamous head tilts.

I think these problems are easily fixable with good direction and Nakatani advising. She probably has a very clear idea of what she wants an anime of her work to look like.

I'm not saying it's wrong. The point I'm trying to make with Shaft is that the way they use colors or direct anime is not subtle or naturalistic, but rather overt & highly exaggerated.

In my experience, they can have those naturalistic colours, and I've seen that in Bakemonogatari. The way they draw sunset and night scenes to emphasise a feeling of supernaturality is a great example of them using colour palettes well. Just because their more exaggerated colour uses are more memorable doesn't mean they're incapable of being understated.

I love them, but I just don't see them adapting YagaKimi and still make it the subtle series that it is.

I guess our main difference is that I don't see YagaKimi's actual visual storytelling as being subtle. I think it's very overt and obvious. The subtlety is in the interpretation, not in the presentation; what the scenes actually mean in terms of characterisation is never dictated, but how the scenes are supposed to make you feel and how they reflect the characters' states, are all very prominent, almost by necessity. You can't rely on an unsubtle medium when your dialogue is ambiguous, because then everything would be ambiguous, and there'd be no fun in discussing it, since there'd be almost nothing to discuss. Nakatani strikes a very clever balance between having understated characterisation and overstated methods of immersing us in the characters and their feelings so we still feel a connection to them. I never feel like Nakatani lets a panel go to waste.

A good example for me is that Yuu never says she feels unsettled by Touko during her more sinister moments, but the narrative is very clear in communicating that Yuu does, in fact, feel unsettled. The scenes themselves become darker, the characters' expressions turn blank, there are frequent zoom ins, the panels linger on them to try and invite you to interpret them as the characters themselves are doing... It's all in-your-face, but it works pretty well.

Although I'm slightly raising my eyebrow at the fact that you implied that Maid Dragon was an adaptation without heart

In fairness, I highly dislike the source material, and I never watched the adaptation as a result. Maybe that's an exception.

Shaft is actually my favorite studio.

Mine is Sunrise! Mecha Sunrise, though.

I guess our main difference is that I don't see YagaKimi's actual visual storytelling as being subtle. I think it's very overt and obvious. The subtlety is in the interpretation, not in the presentation; what the scenes actually mean in terms of characterisation is never dictated, but how the scenes are supposed to make you feel and how they reflect the characters' states, are all very prominent, almost by necessity. You can't rely on an unsubtle medium when your dialogue is ambiguous, because then everything would be ambiguous, and there'd be no fun in discussing it, since there'd be almost nothing to discuss. Nakatani strikes a very clever balance between having understated characterisation and overstated methods of immersing us in the characters and their feelings so we still feel a connection to them. I never feel like Nakatani lets a panel go to waste.

I'm not sure if Gaotama refers to the same thing as me, but I'd say that the visual storytelling is subtle too. And I say this because it's not "in your face" (as in stated), but rather there are details that most readers don't notice if they don't pay enough attention. For instance, the best example for me is the comparison between chapter 1 and 16. Both have the exact same scene, where Koyomi asks Yuu if she's okay. Yuu hesitates and then say yes. But the difference between chapter 1 and 16 is subtle enough. In chapter 1 Yuu is away from her friends, standing on the dark. In chapter 16, she's right next to them, her face in the light. Instead of saying "yeah Yuu knows what's love now", you have that scene. And there are other moments like this, like parallels between scenes or symbolisms. A good example of symbolism is chapter 24, when Touko and Yuu are on the tunnel and on the train. By saying "we have to change trains", this represents Yuu helping Touko to change, and their relationship eventually evolving into a new one because of this.

I'm not sure if Gaotama refers to the same thing as me, but I'd say that the visual storytelling is subtle too. And I say this because it's not "in your face" (as in stated), but rather there are details that most readers don't notice if they don't pay enough attention. For instance, the best example for me is the comparison between chapter 1 and 16. Both have the exact same scene, where Koyomi asks Yuu if she's okay. Yuu hesitates and then say yes. But the difference between chapter 1 and 16 is subtle enough. In chapter 1 Yuu is away from her friends, standing on the dark. In chapter 16, she's right next to them, her face in the light. Instead of saying "yeah Yuu knows what's love now", you have that scene. And there are other moments like this, like parallels between scenes or symbolisms. A good example of symbolism is chapter 24, when Touko and Yuu are on the tunnel and on the train. By saying "we have to change trains", this represents Yuu helping Touko to change, and their relationship eventually evolving into a new one because of this.

Oh, I don't think there's a lack of subtlety, my bad if you got that impression. I think the subtlety is all in the characterisation and the way they respond; they don't overreact or anything, and their responses are all with the realms of how a real person might behave (no dictating their feelings via expository monologue with perfect clarity), so there's a lot of room for interpretive depth as to why they make the decisions they do and what their internal thought processes are.

Gaotama's complaints were about SHAFT channelling the emotional nature of certain scenes a little too strongly, and my counter to that was that... Well... So does Nakatani. The emotional weight of the scenes is very clear and suffuse the panels whenever they're present.

But, again, my main frame of reference is Bakemonogatari. Another user pointed out that 3gatsu is based on an even more exaggerated source material, which is the opposite of what a YagaKimi adaptation would be, so I'm not sure those 3gatsu exaggerations are necessarily indicative of the choices they'd make for this manga.

I think this is a really interesting discussion, though. I'm glad we're having it.

I'm not sure if Gaotama refers to the same thing as me, but I'd say that the visual storytelling is subtle too. And I say this because it's not "in your face" (as in stated), but rather there are details that most readers don't notice if they don't pay enough attention. For instance, the best example for me is the comparison between chapter 1 and 16. Both have the exact same scene, where Koyomi asks Yuu if she's okay. Yuu hesitates and then say yes. But the difference between chapter 1 and 16 is subtle enough. In chapter 1 Yuu is away from her friends, standing on the dark. In chapter 16, she's right next to them, her face in the light. Instead of saying "yeah Yuu knows what's love now", you have that scene. And there are other moments like this, like parallels between scenes or symbolisms. A good example of symbolism is chapter 24, when Touko and Yuu are on the tunnel and on the train. By saying "we have to change trains", this represents Yuu helping Touko to change, and their relationship eventually evolving into a new one because of this.

Oh, I don't think there's a lack of subtlety, my bad if you got that impression. I think the subtlety is all in the characterisation and the way they respond; they don't overreact or anything, and their responses are all with the realms of how a real person might behave (no dictating their feelings via expository monologue with perfect clarity), so there's a lot of room for interpretive depth as to why they make the decisions they do and what their internal thought processes are.

I'm not sure about this, we have seen Touko, Sayaka and Yuu having inner monologues that help understand why they act the way they do, I don't think there's room for interpretation in this regard. Personally, I think this aspect is straightforward. But Yuu is an unreliable narrator sometimes, at least she was during volume 4 in regards to her feelings for Touko, because she said one thing and thought/acted the opposite. Their monologues are clear, the subtle part is the visual storytelling, because it's not shown in your face as said above.

But Yuu is an unreliable narrator sometimes, at least she was during volume 4 in regards to her feelings for Touko, because she said one thing and thought/acted the opposite.

Yuu has done this from the start, even before she met Touko. I don’t think a single one of her silent accusations of “unfairness” is actually something that’s unfair to her, or at least outside of her control (except maybe the time Touko snatched the last snack that Yuu wanted).

But Yuu is an unreliable narrator sometimes, at least she was during volume 4 in regards to her feelings for Touko, because she said one thing and thought/acted the opposite.

Yuu has done this from the start, even before she met Touko. I don’t think a single one of her silent accusations of “unfairness” is actually something that’s unfair to her, or at least outside of her control (except maybe the time Touko snatched the last snack that Yuu wanted).

The thing is that Yuu thinks those things are unfair. I don't think she was being an unreliable narrator when she accused Touko of being unfair. She meant it. Because it's true, it's selfish and unfair of Touko to forbid Yuu from falling for her while Touko is free to do it. But at the same time, Yuu agreed to all of this because she wants to stay with Touko, so she wasn't forced to anything. Before meeting Touko? She pretty much met Touko right away in chapter 1 so I don't see how it applies.

I'm not sure about this, we have seen Touko, Sayaka and Yuu having inner monologues that help understand why they act the way they do, I don't think there's room for interpretation in this regard. Personally, I think this aspect is straightforward. But Yuu is an unreliable narrator sometimes, at least she was during volume 4 in regards to her feelings for Touko, because she said one thing and thought/acted the opposite. Their monologues are clear, the subtle part is the visual storytelling, because it's not shown in your face as said above.

Yes, we've heard monologues that help show their thought processes, but those monologues are always from the characters' perspectives, and, personally, it doesn't feel as if those monologues were intended as metacommentary to let you know their internal logic which led them to their conclusions, or why they went about their decisions in the way that they did. They were just showing the characters deliberating and venting to themselves, or to other people, and the emotional nature of their monologues is reinforced by the visual storytelling in an extremely obvious way. I'm not sure why you think Maki's understated dialogue in saying he prefers to watch couples is somehow less subtle than Nakatani separating from realism to depict him as the sole audience member to a stage production of two people's conversations through a very blatant and exaggerated visual metaphor. That's rather strikingly in your face, to me.

Again, I've been quite vocally supportive of Nakatani's use of unreliable visual narration (although I first started mentioning it a few months ago, so you'd be forgiven for not remembering!), and I don't think she's subtle about using it, and I don't think that's a bad thing, either. It's very clear what parts are unreliable and what parts aren't. I think this is necessary, actually, because we're dealing with a story told through multiple viewpoints. At no point does her visual storytelling leave you with ambiguity regarding what's really going on, because it's always clear what's metaphor, what's genuine, what's Yuu being inconsistent, etc.

Subtlety would be, in my opinion, something like Kafka's Metamorphosis, or Nabakov's Lolita, wherein you have to work fairly hard to separate what's intended to be reality and what's intended to be hallucinatory or warped by the narrator to make them seem more favourable. We can't be sure Gregor didn't actually turn into a bug, because it's well within the surrealism of Kafka's works for him to actually have done that, but an interpretation of him perceiving himself that way due to mental illness is valid in the text. Hell, you could even draw a comparison between the earlier seasons of Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, before the reveal about Hinamizawa Syndrome being a form of psychosis. There's none of that in YagaKimi - it's extremely obvious where Yuu's unreliability lies, and it's clear when we're supposed to doubt that what we're being shown is the whole complete truth.

last edited at Mar 28, 2018 7:44PM

it doesn't feel as if those monologues were intended as metacommentary to let you know their internal logic which led them to their conclusions, or why they went about their decisions in the way that they did.

I think it does feel like it. We agree to disagree.

They were just showing the characters deliberating and venting to themselves, or to other people, and the emotional nature of their monologues is reinforced by the visual storytelling in an extremely obvious way. I'm not sure why you think Maki's understated dialogue in saying he prefers to watch couples is somehow less subtle than Nakatani separating from realism to depict him as the sole audience member to a stage production of two people's conversations through a very blatant and exaggerated visual metaphor. That's rather strikingly in your face, to me.

Again, I've been quite vocally supportive of Nakatani's use of unreliable visual narration (although I first started mentioning it a few months ago, so you'd be forgiven for not remembering!), and I don't think she's subtle about using it, and I don't think that's a bad thing, either. It's very clear what parts are unreliable and what parts aren't. I think this is necessary, actually, because we're dealing with a story told through multiple viewpoints. At no point does her visual storytelling leave you with ambiguity regarding what's really going on, because it's always clear what's metaphor, what's genuine, what's Yuu being inconsistent, etc.

Subtlety would be, in my opinion, something like Kafka's Metamorphosis, or Nabakov's Lolita, wherein you have to work fairly hard to separate what's intended to be reality and what's intended to be hallucinatory or warped by the narrator to make them seem more favourable. We can't be sure Gregor didn't actually turn into a bug, because it's well within the surrealism of Kafka's works for him to actually have done that, but an interpretation of him perceiving himself that way due to mental illness is valid in the text. Hell, you could even draw a comparison between the earlier seasons of Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, before the reveal about Hinamizawa Syndrome being a form of psychosis. There's none of that in YagaKimi - it's extremely obvious where Yuu's unreliability lies, and it's clear when we're supposed to doubt that what we're being shown is the whole complete truth.

I think you're making a mistake here. It seems like you may believe subtle = ambiguous, and that's not true at all. Subtle visual storytelling, as mentioned above, would be something like the flowers that appear in some chapters and their meanings. There are other examples of this mentioned some posts above as well. But I agree with you, sometimes the visual storytelling is pretty straightforward, like the example you gave about Maki, but there are other times when it's subtle. So, it's wrong to say the visual storytelling is only subtle or straightforward. It can be either of them depending on the situation shown. Regarding ambiguity, I never mentioned anything of the sort, and I agree with you that there's nothing ambiguous about Yuu's unreliable narrator moments, since you can tell when she's being dishonest and when she's telling the truth.

last edited at Mar 28, 2018 8:05PM

Before meeting Touko? She pretty much met Touko right away in chapter 1 so I don't see how it applies.

Chapter 1, pg. 8: on her way to observe the student council for the very first time she says that she “feels like she was manipulated” [translation here]/that her homeroom teacher “put one over on her”[official translation].

What actually happened was that she was casting around for a non-sports activity, her homeroom teacher mentioned the student council, Yuu expressed interest in observing them, then the teacher revealed that the council needed help with their work, upon which Yuu appeared to have second thoughts. Then she went anyway.

The point is that no one put pressure on her to do anything; she goes to check out the student council completely voluntarily, but she feels the need to tell herself that she’s been “manipulated.”

She also accuses Touko of being “unfair” when she sees that Touko is flustered being around her—that she thought Touko was like her in regard to love (or having someone “special”) despite the fact that Touko expressly said that she had previously been that way but wasn’t anymore.

Even the “don’t fall in love” order, which we know actually is “unfair” because we see into Yuu’s thoughts and feelings, is still just Touko telling Yuu to continue be exactly what Yuu insists to Touko that she already is—a person who doesn’t fall in love.

Even at this late date, Yuu has yet to be completely honest with herself—at least explicitly—about her feelings for Touko.

Chapter 1, pg. 8: on her way to observe the student council for the very first time she says that she “feels like she was manipulated” [translation here]/that her homeroom teacher “put one over on her”[official translation].

I don't see how Yuu was being an unreliable narrator here. It was clear the teacher talked to Yuu about joining the Student Council because he wanted more students to help with the election and he heard Yuu was still unsure about picking a club. Yuu was right about this. And her thought after it is not a case of unreliable narration. She first thinks "It seems like I was manipulated into doing this" (true, the teacher took advantage of Yuu's situation) but she finishes with "but I was already kind of interested anyways, so whatever". It would be unreliable narration if Yuu just said the first thought, but she finished it by stating her real feelings: she was kind of curious/interested in joining, regardless.

She also accuses Touko of being “unfair” when she sees that Touko is flustered being around her—that she thought Touko was like her in regard to love (or having someone “special”) despite the fact that Touko expressly said that she had previously been that way but wasn’t anymore.

Yuu was confused. First Touko told her that she never fell for anyone and then suddenly she loves Yuu out of the blue. Yuu holding her hand was just her confirming if what Touko said was for real. She saw Touko flustered, and confirmed that Touko indeed fell for her. Then she thinks it's unfair because Touko, who was the same as Yuu, has someone special now while Yuu still hasn't. I don't see Yuu being an unreliable narrator here either. She did think it was unfair. It's not objective, it's simply unfair for her. I do agree that in reality Touko wasn't unfair here, though.

Even the “don’t fall in love” order, which we know actually is “unfair” because we see into Yuu’s thoughts and feelings, is still just Touko telling Yuu to continue be exactly what Yuu insists to Touko that she already is—a person who doesn’t fall in love.

I think Yuu was being unfair too for the reasons you mention. Yuu constantly said she would never love Touko and never told Touko that she wanted to fall in love. Touko is not omnipresent so she doesn't have any reason to think Yuu would change eventually. On top of that, Yuu is not being forced to stay like this, she chose to do it because she doesn't want Touko to leave her. Due to this I think Yuu was being unfair, but that doesn't mean Touko wasn't selfish and unfair as well.

Even at this late date, Yuu has yet to be completely honest with herself—at least explicitly—about her feelings for Touko.

For sure.

last edited at Mar 28, 2018 8:35PM

I think it does feel like it. We agree to disagree.

Aye. I'm used to that in textual fiction and in playwriting, which often uses soliloquies in this fashion, so it doesn't seem that absurd to me for it to be used here. The monologues are all in-character and told from the character's perspectives, and can be interpreted alternatively. That might be where our difference is.

I think you're making a mistake here. It seems like you may believe subtle = ambiguous, and that's not true at all.

I think it is true. Subtlety by its very nature invites more ambiguity than the alternative, as subtlety is defined indirectness and by implication, not by concrete statements and declarations of fact. If a narrative is subtle, it doesn't go out of its way to announce itself to you, and instead lets itself be communicated through the characters' actions and their dialogue.

Something being subtle enough to warrant mentioning in the way that you and others, including myself, have (i.e., as the defining feature of the work) would necessitate it being ambiguous, at least on some level.

I think you might be confusing subtlety with a lack of bombast. The visuals are, for the most part, unexaggerated, but I wouldn't describe them as subtle, and most definitely not in regards to where they prop up the narrative.

So, it's wrong to say the visual storytelling is only subtle or straightforward.

Which I never said, and in fact explicitly denied, in very clear phrasing. You can find my post on this page, beginning with this sentence: "Oh, I don't think there's a lack of subtlety, my bad if you got that impression."

I then went on to clarify that the subtlety present in YagaKimi is less in the visual narration, especially lacking in the areas of unreliability, and more in the realm of characterisation, which I think Blastaar is illustrating very nicely.

Hell, you only need to look back on this very forum to see people's attitudes regarding this series. The sheer level of debate and analysis going on over the interpretations of the characters, as opposed to the visual elements, is what convinces me that the visual elements aren't subtle or ambiguous. Everyone's pretty much on board with what's going on there.

I think it does feel like it. We agree to disagree.

Aye. I'm used to that in textual fiction and in playwriting, which often uses soliloquies in this fashion, so it doesn't seem that absurd to me for it to be used here. The monologues are all in-character and told from the character's perspectives, and can be interpreted alternatively. That might be where our difference is.

I think you're making a mistake here. It seems like you may believe subtle = ambiguous, and that's not true at all.

I think it is true. Subtlety by its very nature invites more ambiguity than the alternative, as subtlety is defined indirectness and by implication, not by concrete statements and declarations of fact. If a narrative is subtle, it doesn't go out of its way to announce itself to you, and instead lets itself be communicated through the characters' actions and their dialogue.

Something being subtle enough to warrant mentioning in the way that you and others, including myself, have (i.e., as the defining feature of the work) would necessitate it being ambiguous, at least on some level.

I think you might be confusing subtlety with a lack of bombast. The visuals are, for the most part, unexaggerated, but I wouldn't describe them as subtle, and most definitely not in regards to where they prop up the narrative.

So, it's wrong to say the visual storytelling is only subtle or straightforward.

Which I never said, and in fact explicitly denied, in very clear phrasing. You can find my post on this page, beginning with this sentence: "Oh, I don't think there's a lack of subtlety, my bad if you got that impression."

I then went on to clarify that the subtlety present in YagaKimi is less in the visual narration, especially lacking in the areas of unreliability, and more in the realm of characterisation, which I think Blastaar is illustrating very nicely.

Fuck, too tired to give long ass replies. I do think that an indirect or an implication can be ambiguous, but not necessarily. And by definition, subtle and ambiguous are not synonyms. You are free to believe they are, but in the examples I gave about subtle visual storytelling, I just understood subtle as "not too obvious, not thrown on your face". I didn't quote the examples as them having any degree of ambiguity at all, just subtleness (by what I understand is the definition of subtle).

Hell, you only need to look back on this very forum to see people's attitudes regarding this series. The sheer level of debate and analysis going on over the interpretations of the characters, as opposed to the visual elements, is what convinces me that the visual elements aren't subtle or ambiguous. Everyone's pretty much on board with what's going on there.

From what I read here, most people discuss the possible outcomes and future developments (theories, foreshadowing and stuff) of the chapters. I don't think you're wrong, but I don't see people giving different interpretations about the characters' behaviour that much. Maybe about Touko, yeah. But I don't think the characters are meant to be ambiguous since for me, their motivations and reasons for their behaviour are stated/shown in their monologues or actions.

I guess, we have to give specific examples about what we are talking about because just giving overall replies may confuse us.

last edited at Mar 28, 2018 9:17PM

(true, the teacher took advantage of Yuu's situation)

This the part I don’t understand: the teacher said, “Hey, if you’re looking for something to do, why not check out the student council—they could use the help,” so how is Yuu being manipulated or taken advantage of?

Again, the point is not that it’s classic, industrial-strength “The Tell-Tale Heart”-style unreliable narration, but that, especially but not solely in the early part of the story, Yuu quite often (to use a phrase I’ve used before) spins her own decisions to herself—“I’m only doing what anyone would have done, etc.”—or suggests to herself that she’s being reactive when in fact she’s taking the initiative of her own volition.

(true, the teacher took advantage of Yuu's situation)

This the part I don’t understand: the teacher said, “Hey, if you’re looking for something to do, why not check out the student council—they could use the help,” so how is Yuu being manipulated or taken advantage of?

The teacher first said that, Yuu reacted interested ,then he added, "the elections are coming soon and we need help". It's clear what's his intention. He wouldn't have added that line if he just wanted to help Yuu to make a choice about where to join. He wanted Yuu to join so she could help with the election and Yuu noticed this.

Again, the point is not that it’s classic, industrial-strength “The Tell-Tale Heart”-style unreliable narration, but that, especially but not solely in the early part of the story, Yuu quite often (to use a phrase I’ve used before) spins her own decisions to herself—“I’m only doing what anyone would have done, etc.”—or suggests to herself that she’s being reactive when in fact she’s taking the initiative of her own volition.

True, but Yuu just said the “I’m only doing what anyone would have done, etc.” line during the first chapters, when she didn't feel anything towards Touko and just helped her out of kindness/pity. Touko was not special to her back then, and I do believe that Yuu was being honest when she said " I would have done the same for anyone else. Not just her". That's how Yuu is, we saw she did the same for Natsuki and Koyomi when they asked her for help.
Notice how she stopped saying it at some point, when she actually stopped " doing what anyone would have done" and just did what she really wanted to because she cares about Touko (like that time in chapter 22 when Touko didn't ask Yuu for help and even avoided her, yet Yuu went and comforted Touko anyways because she wanted to)./
I think her line was true, but not entirely true. She said that to make clear that she wasn't being nice because she had romantic feelings for Touko. But at the same time, Yuu was denying her own kind nature, since other people might have not helped someone like Touko in those contexts.

last edited at Mar 28, 2018 9:33PM

You are free to believe they are

Which I don't, and never said I did. What I did say, however, was that I believe subtlety invites ambiguity by its nature, and that the presence of subtlety as described in this forum would necessitate some level of ambiguity.

I guess, we have to give specific examples about what we are talking about because just giving overall replies may confuse us.

I've done that several times. I could compile them in a new post, or quote the pages to make them easier to find?

I've done that several times. I could compile them in a new post, or quote the pages to make them easier to find?

Huh, sure. I'm curious about what you mean when you say that the characterisation is ambiguous, because I think it's not. For me, the characters' thoughts explain their actions and motivations (example: when we saw Touko's past , monologues and thoughts, we come to understand why she acts all perfect and why she doesn't want to be loved, example 2: we know why Yuu decided to change the play, example 3: we know why Sayaka accepted the new script, etc). Or whatever you think it's ambiguous in this manga.

I think her line was true, but not entirely true.

This is what I’m saying that she does—a lot (hence the term “spin”). I’m not going to go through the whole series and parse it line by line, but a less-than-forthright evaluation of her own motivations is one of the hallmarks of her character for much of the series.

That’s why when we get to the end of Chapter 22 Yuu’s character development is so clear and so powerful—she knows what she wants and is finally willing to state it forthrightly to herself: “I want to change [Touko].”

PS: If you guys ever get that “subtlety vs. ambiguity” thing sorted, could you maybe post an executive summary somewhere? It’s a fascinating topic, but I can’t keep up. Not tonight, anyway.

Yes, cuz Akiyuki Shinbo is Shaft lol

Do they only have the one director? I didn't know that.

It's him who helped create the Shaft we know today & he basically directs almost every one of their shows, sometimes with a co-director, from Hidamari Sketch to Saiyonara Zetsubou Sensei to Arakawa Under the Bridge to the Monogatari series to Madoka & all the recent shows, too.

I think these problems are easily fixable with good direction and Nakatani advising. She probably has a very clear idea of what she wants an anime of her work to look like.

I don't think original authors are given that much power over the adaptation like you're implying, generally speaking, especially when they don't have much experience in animation, though you can prove me otherwise. From my experience watching Shaft, I don't think I've ever seen a show by them that seems like they compromise their style with someone else's vision.

I guess our main difference is that I don't see YagaKimi's actual visual storytelling as being subtle. I think it's very overt and obvious. The subtlety is in the interpretation, not in the presentation; what the scenes actually mean in terms of characterisation is never dictated, but how the scenes are supposed to make you feel and how they reflect the characters' states, are all very prominent, almost by necessity. You can't rely on an unsubtle medium when your dialogue is ambiguous, because then everything would be ambiguous, and there'd be no fun in discussing it, since there'd be almost nothing to discuss. Nakatani strikes a very clever balance between having understated characterisation and overstated methods of immersing us in the characters and their feelings so we still feel a connection to them. I never feel like Nakatani lets a panel go to waste.

Yeah, I don't think we're exactly on the same page with the definition of subtlety & naturalism. It's a fine line, but being clear & intentional is different from being unsubtle. Subtlety =/= obscurity. The way Nakatani uses visual storytelling is deliberate & intentional, but it doesn't distract from the reading experience. Everything flows naturally and is carefully integrated into the contexts of the given scenes. Most people wouldn't read YagaKimi & be like "why do they need to pan through the character's face at such a low angle even though they are just having a normal conversation? That's such an odd decision", because the visual storytelling is very natural. (That was an actual criticism of Shaft's show, btw).

For example, when Yuu & Touko part the first time Touko visits Yuu's house, you see that Nakatani makes use of lighting to communicate the feelings of the characters. Touko is facing the sun's direction so her face is lit up, reflecting her happy mood. Yuu has her back against the sun so her whole face is in the dark, reflecting her confusion & uneasiness. This is intentional & deliberate, but it's subtle & natural because it makes use of the sunset setting the characters are already in & the direction they're facing/heading falls in place with the lighting use. Here, the visual storytelling is smartly drawn out of the setting and not an attempt to overimpose visuals where they don't belong. This is different from suddenly changing the entire scene into blue to reflect sadness even though the setting is in the middle of the day & the lighting should be natural. This naturalistic visual storytelling is seen throughout the series. An example of a less subtle visual storytelling in this series would be this one in chapter 1. There's a distortion of reality based on the character's perspective, which creates a more literal depiction of Yuu feeling distant from her friends. This type of visual storytelling isn't as prominent in YagaKimi as the former.

Shaft's directing style falls into the latter & it's very obvious. What they do with visual storytelling is more like what Ikuhara does with symbolism, basically. With YagaKimi, not everyone is gonna spot the amount of effort Nakatani puts into paneling & visual storytelling upon first read or if they just read it casually, only us nerds. However, as you said, she is very clear and intentional with what's she's doing & this allows readers to be able to pick up the information upon rereads. This is subtlety. Not just in the interpretation, but in the presentation as well. Again, subtlety =/= obscurity. Something subtle can still be picked up and clearly understood, just not immediately.

I haven't read any of the posts pass this one yet, so you might have brought up other points I'm not addressing. Working all day so I won't be able to keep up or respond quickly, but it's been a fun discussion.

In fairness, I highly dislike the source material, and I never watched the adaptation as a result. Maybe that's an exception.

I have mixed feelings about the Maid Dragon manga, but I ended up loving the anime a lot, though I can't say it'll be the same for you since I don't really dislike the manga or KyoAni.

Shaft is actually my favorite studio.

Mine is Sunrise! Mecha Sunrise, though.

I can't into Mecha. Sorry man.