I really like Bara a lot. I really like to see two boys chuu each other... Never once i fantasize about being a big hairy man to kiss another big hairy man... reconsider some things maybe

Today I learned Bara and Yaoi are not necessarily the same thing. Thank you.

they are considered entirely different genres. Yaoi/BL is mostly made by women for women, Bara is for the demographic of gay man that are also bears/chasers (and me as an intruder i guess lol.) tho the two are slowly blending together, in some ways, nowadays :D

You know, I've always wondered if there was a type of genre terminology of bara but for lesbian women. It certainly exists like you know when you see art that depicts lesbian relationships by a lesbian rather than a man but there's not really a term for it.

80% of yuri authors are woman. I can't say for sure they are also all gay, but well... connect the dots

This is the main reason why there is no equal separation on the GL genre compared to BL and Bara. Yuri is already the "lesbian women" genre. (tho the public is very equal in numbers of both genders)

tho, maybe Josei is a "close enough" there. But it's not exclusively for yuri.

Truly, I had forgot that lesbians' are notorious for liking dick. I'm one myself and I forgot. Really sorry about that, won't happen again.

Trans women exist.

Yeah I know, I see one everyday in the office. She's nice and tells pretty good jokes. What's your point?

You're kinda indirectly implying that trans women can't be lesbians or have relationships with other women.
i think it's important to remember that no one is more or less gay for being in a relationship with a trans person, and that trans women also date other trans women and this is still a lesbian relationship.

I get what you mean, totally totally. I don't mean, drawing women exactly like bara (overtly fat, muscular and hairy to giant proportions) but I guess what I mean is I want a terminology like bara that's meant to denote lesbian media and content that's made by lesbians and tends to have art cues that are a tad more realistic. Similar to the connotations of bara if that makes sense. The closest I could think of is maybe Josei GL that has a non-moe art style.

Oh I understand. Obviously by and for who is important, but the real difference between yaoi and bara is the body type. If a type of yuri that was mostly hairy, fat women having sex existed, I am sure that many readers of “conventional yuri” wouldn't read it, and that a separation between readers would exist. The non-moe tag certainly has more “realistic” art styles but the women and girls in it are still bishojo or conventionally beautiful.
The other crucial difference is also in how the story develops. Bara authors consider yaoi too “emotional”, basically bara is like hentai and yaoi is like shojo with smut. It’s a lot about “this makes me horny and this doesn’t make me horny” type of mentality when you read interviews, very interesting.

I do remember a lesbian japanese artist (the organizer of the ButchxButch anthology) saying something similar in her twitter, that she use yuri because it would reach more people, basically for marketing reasons. Not that she doesn’t like yuri or that yuri can not be lesbian but that a “lesbian” genre didn’t exist.

last edited at Aug 22, 2025 6:10PM

Truly, I had forgot that lesbians' are notorious for liking dick. I'm one myself and I forgot. Really sorry about that, won't happen again.

Trans women exist.

Yeah I know, I see one everyday in the office. She's nice and tells pretty good jokes. What's your point?

You're kinda indirectly implying that trans women can't be lesbians or have relationships with other women.
i think it's important to remember that no one is more or less gay for being in a relationship with a trans person, and that trans women also date other trans women and this is still a lesbian relationship.

How so? I apologize, if my words may have come off as harsh or rude (I'm ESL, tone isn't my forte) but how did I say that? I simply, but sarcastically, said lesbians don't like dick... Which is what lesbians don't like...Am I missing something?

if it's not on purpose, that's fine, but be careful with your words, especially in this discussion.

the biggest mistake here is to be focused on genitals. We can go on a deep "biological sex ≠ genre" talk or even "some lesbians use dildos and that's don't make them less lesbians" (not to mention bissexuals folks like me.)
all comes down to extremely personal preferences in the end. It's wrong for a cis lesbian not feeling confortable to have sex with a trans person? Of couse no. But it also don't make lesbians that like have sex with trans womans less lesbians.

last edited at Aug 22, 2025 6:06PM

Truly, I had forgot that lesbians' are notorious for liking dick. I'm one myself and I forgot. Really sorry about that, won't happen again.

Trans women exist.

Yeah I know, I see one everyday in the office. She's nice and tells pretty good jokes. What's your point?

You're kinda indirectly implying that trans women can't be lesbians or have relationships with other women.
i think it's important to remember that no one is more or less gay for being in a relationship with a trans person, and that trans women also date other trans women and this is still a lesbian relationship.

How so? I apologize, if my words may have come off as harsh or rude (I'm ESL, tone isn't my forte) but how did I say that? I simply, but sarcastically, said lesbians don't like dick... Which is what lesbians don't like...Am I missing something?

if it's not on purpose, that's fine, but be careful with your words, especially in this discussion.

the biggest mistake here is to be focused on genitals. We can go on a deep "biological sex ≠ genre" talk or even "some lesbians use dildos and that's don't make them less lesbians" (not to mention bissexuals folks like me.)
all comes down to extremely personal preferences in the end. It's wrong for a cis lesbian not feeling confortable to have sex with a trans person? Of couse no. But it also don't make lesbians that like have sex with trans womans less lesbians.

If I get what you're saying, then I didn't mean for it to be on purpose.
That doesn't make sense to me. How is it a mistake to focus on the thing I am attracted to that makes me a lesbian and not heterosexual?

There is bisexuality for one also the whole "two trans womens dating is also lesbian" thing that i said. And again, genitals don't define your gender if you are trans, nonbinary and, to complicate a little more or understand of what is gender and sex even means, intersexual people.

Me, as a bissexual, i see genitals as irrelevant for faling in love with someone. It's only define "the type of fun" we can have doing sex. but some people don't like or have sex and still are on a relationship (the aro/ace spectrum varies.)

We are on a age where trans people have more visibility than never, they are a very small portion of the population but it's the basic to consider them and treat the topic with respect. It's not a black and white thing.

I do remember a lesbian japanese artist (the organizer of the ButchxButch anthology) saying something similar in her twitter, that she use yuri because it would reach more people, basically for marketing reasons. Not that she doesn’t like yuri or that yuri can not be lesbian but that a “lesbian” genre didn’t exist.

I mean a lesbian genre does exist, it's called yuri. And while you're right that yuri can feel restrictive with its focus on feminine women loving feminine women. The yuri genre is very specifically the lesbian erotica made by and for lesbians genre in japan. the fact is that Yuri got its start in bara magazines.

All that said while there's certainly a conversation to be had about breaking free of purely depicting the conventionally attractive. This is still the forum for a story about an egg who got isekaied into the body of a pre-op trans woman and is as of chapter 1 still coping about it. I'd rather we try to keep on topic. even if that seemingly generates transphobes at alarming rate.

I do not agree and it is clear we have different idea of what a lesbian is. I do not want to start and further argument and I do not want to further upset you. It's clear this discussion is going nowhere so I will simply concede and affirm you;

Lesbians love penis!!!

There. Again, I am sorry if my previous words may have hurt you. Have a good day.

Don't really know how you being able to come to that conclusion, even after i'm saying: "It's not wrong for a cis lesbian not feeling confortable to have sex with a trans person but also don't make lesbians that do less lesbians."

I don't have skin in the game, so it does not hurt me, it just intrigues me what kind of conclusions are drawn from this.
But i'm feeling that somehow may be on purpose so i'll also no continue after this.

Truly, I had forgot that lesbians' are notorious for liking dick. I'm one myself and I forgot. Really sorry about that, won't happen again.

Trans women exist.

Yeah I know, I see one everyday in the office. She's nice and tells pretty good jokes. What's your point?

You're kinda indirectly implying that trans women can't be lesbians or have relationships with other women.
i think it's important to remember that no one is more or less gay for being in a relationship with a trans person, and that trans women also date other trans women and this is still a lesbian relationship.

How so? I apologize, if my words may have come off as harsh or rude (I'm ESL, tone isn't my forte) but how did I say that? I simply, but sarcastically, said lesbians don't like dick... Which is what lesbians don't like...Am I missing something?

Because you're basically saying if someone is attracted to a trans woman (at least a pre-op trans woman), she can't be a lesbian.

I do remember a lesbian japanese artist (the organizer of the ButchxButch anthology) saying something similar in her twitter, that she use yuri because it would reach more people, basically for marketing reasons. Not that she doesn’t like yuri or that yuri can not be lesbian but that a “lesbian” genre didn’t exist.

I mean a lesbian genre does exist, it's called yuri. And while you're right that yuri can feel restrictive with its focus on feminine women loving feminine women. The yuri genre is very specifically the lesbian erotica made by and for lesbians genre in japan. the fact is that Yuri got its start in bara magazines.

All that said while there's certainly a conversation to be had about breaking free of purely depicting the conventionally attractive. This is still the forum for a story about an egg who got isekaied into the body of a pre-op trans woman and is as of chapter 1 still coping about it. I'd rather we try to keep on topic. even if that seemingly generates transphobes at alarming rate.

“while you are right” I didn’t give a opinion on the genre, just cited what I saw from a author on twitter. I am not the type to expect a genre to adapt to my taste, I just go and search for it. I also know where yuri started, and it wasn’t bara magazines (bara as a genre has never existed) it was a gay magazine called barazoku and the yurizoku section being the reason for the name of the genre.

You are right, so I deleted my last comment. I was trying to change the topic to be honest. I don’t know if its posible for a Admin. to delete all comments and monitor from then on to avoid transphobia.

last edited at Aug 22, 2025 7:16PM

I do remember a lesbian japanese artist (the organizer of the ButchxButch anthology) saying something similar in her twitter, that she use yuri because it would reach more people, basically for marketing reasons. Not that she doesn’t like yuri or that yuri can not be lesbian but that a “lesbian” genre didn’t exist.

I mean a lesbian genre does exist, it's called yuri. And while you're right that yuri can feel restrictive with its focus on feminine women loving feminine women. The yuri genre is very specifically the lesbian erotica made by and for lesbians genre in japan. the fact is that Yuri got its start in bara magazines.

All that said while there's certainly a conversation to be had about breaking free of purely depicting the conventionally attractive. This is still the forum for a story about an egg who got isekaied into the body of a pre-op trans woman and is as of chapter 1 still coping about it. I'd rather we try to keep on topic. even if that seemingly generates transphobes at alarming rate.

“while you are right” I didn’t give a opinion on the genre, just cited what I saw from a author on twitter. I am not the type to expect a genre to adapt to my taste, I just go and search for it. I also know where yuri started, and it wasn’t bara magazines (bara as a genre has never existed) it was a gay magazine called barazoku and the yurizoku section being the reason for the name of the genre.

You are right, so I deleted my last comment. I was trying to change the topic to be honest. I don’t know if its posible for a Admin. to delete all comments and monitor from then on to avoid transphobia.

Barazoku was a Bara magazine. The "yurizoku" was not a section, it was a term a editor from this magazine used in reference to the female readers for a letter column. they basically just called it "yuri" (lily) because it's another flower (bara = rose). as far as I know. he wasn't even necessarily referring to them as "lesbians" but from then on, a joke was formed of naming lesbian characters "Yuri" or something. No one is quite sure where the term came from, because it was mostly these obscure magazines and the doujin and fanzine cycles.

EDIT: "Yuri" as "lesbian works" began in the 90s, but apparently the term had already been in circulation for some time and so no one really knows when it began to be associated with lesbians. I don't think I made it clear where the confusion came from. And the fact that indeed Bara is genre, but was just called "guei komi" before the Barazoku. Mb

last edited at Aug 22, 2025 7:43PM

Barazoku was a Bara magazine. The "yurizoku" was not a section, it was a term a editor from this magazine used in reference to the female readers for a letter column. they basically just called it "yuri" (lily) because it's another flower (bara = rose). as far as I know. he wasn't even necessarily referring to them as "lesbians" but from then on, a joke was formed of naming lesbian characters "Yuri" or something. No one is quite sure where the term came from, because it was mostly these obscure magazines and the doujin and fanzine cycles.

Bara has never been a genre in Japan (Gengoroh Tagame talked about this). Barazoku was a gay magazine, bara was used to refer to gay men (that is why the magazine was called Bara(rose)zoku(tribe)) but then became a “slur” similar to pansy in english. What we call bara is called gei komi in Japan. Some gay magazines had a section for comics and then it become its own market.

To my understanding, the number of female readers was enough to create a section in the magazine for them (column if its different in english) who was called yurizoku. In Japan, lilies were associated with women before it was associated with lesbians, how it started to represent lesbians is something I also don’t know.

last edited at Aug 22, 2025 7:56PM

I do remember a lesbian japanese artist (the organizer of the ButchxButch anthology) saying something similar in her twitter, that she use yuri because it would reach more people, basically for marketing reasons. Not that she doesn’t like yuri or that yuri can not be lesbian but that a “lesbian” genre didn’t exist.

I mean a lesbian genre does exist, it's called yuri. And while you're right that yuri can feel restrictive with its focus on feminine women loving feminine women. The yuri genre is very specifically the lesbian erotica made by and for lesbians genre in japan. the fact is that Yuri got its start in bara magazines.

All that said while there's certainly a conversation to be had about breaking free of purely depicting the conventionally attractive. This is still the forum for a story about an egg who got isekaied into the body of a pre-op trans woman and is as of chapter 1 still coping about it. I'd rather we try to keep on topic. even if that seemingly generates transphobes at alarming rate.

“while you are right” I didn’t give a opinion on the genre, just cited what I saw from a author on twitter. I am not the type to expect a genre to adapt to my taste, I just go and search for it. I also know where yuri started, and it wasn’t bara magazines (bara as a genre has never existed) it was a gay magazine called barazoku and the yurizoku section being the reason for the name of the genre.

You are right, so I deleted my last comment. I was trying to change the topic to be honest. I don’t know if its posible for a Admin. to delete all comments and monitor from then on to avoid transphobia.

Barazoku was a Bara magazine. The "yurizoku" was not a section, it was a term a editor from this magazine used in reference to the female readers for a letter column. they basically just called it "yuri" (lily) because it's another flower (bara = rose). as far as I know. he wasn't even necessarily referring to them as "lesbians" but from then on, a joke was formed of naming lesbian characters "Yuri" or something. No one is quite sure where the term came from, because it was mostly these obscure magazines and the doujin and fanzine cycles.

Bara has never been a genre in Japan (Gengoroh Tagame talked about this). Barazoku was a Gay magazine, Bara was used to refer to gay men (that is why the magazine was called Bara(rose)zoku(tribe))and then become a “slur” similar to pansy in english. What we call bara is called gei komi in Japan. Gay magazines had a section for comics and then it become its own market.

To my understanding, the number of female readers was enough to create a section in the magazine for them (column if its different in english) who was called yurizoku. In Japan, lilies were associated with women before it was associated with lesbians, how it started to represent lesbians is something I also don’t know.

I see a lot of japanese artists using the term and tag "bara" for a long time now. Even the rose as a symbol like the bear flag is used here in the western. So not so sure about it.

it was a letter column from the female readers (who probably weren't even lesbians) that were called the "lily tribe". later, other gay magazines began to have sections specifically for lesbian women meet each other, which also used the term "yuri." But it wasn't Barazuko, and after the "yurizuko" thing, and where the association of "lilies" with lesbians came from is still a mystery.

I see a lot of japanese artists using the term and tag "bara" for a long time now. Even the rose as a symbol like the bear flag is used here in the western. So not so sure about it.

Yep, roses (bara) are associated with gay men in japan, but it has never been the name of the “genre” of comic/ilustration by them. This topic was also mentioned by him and its because they -gei komi artist- know it is a genre outside of Japan, its for marketable/exposure reasons, some even tag it with yaoi, to reach more people. It is similar to GL, people in Japan use it but its not the name of the genre (in Japan) and is barely used compared to Yuri.

last edited at Aug 22, 2025 8:23PM

I see a lot of japanese artists using the term and tag "bara" for a long time now. Even the rose as a symbol like the bear flag is used here in the western. So not so sure about it.

Yep, roses (bara) are associated with gay men in japan, but it has never been the name of the “genre” of comic/ilustration by them. This topic was also mentioned by him and its because they -gei komi artist- know it is a genre outside of Japan, its for marketable/exposure reasons, some even tag it with yaoi, to reach more people. It is similar to GL, people in Japan use it but its not the name of the genre (in Japan) and is barely used compared to Yuri.

So is also very similar to the "BL and Yaoi" thing? The more you know

I don't get it, this isn't a trans manga. I think about wanting to be a woman and in a lesbian relationship all the time, but that doesn't make me trans.

Ask any of your guy friends how often they think about wanting to be women and/or want to be in a lesbian relationship.

But all of my closest friends are sapphic women.

Ask your father if he's ever wanted to be a woman. Ask a colleague or classmate. Ask anyone.

And then, If any of your sapphic friends are trans women, ask them how they knew.

I did, a few years ago, and the answers I got have helped me a lot and made me a much happier person.

What if I said I have only been raised by women, have women relatives, and sapphic cis women friends? Should I ask any men in the thread right now?

I don't get it, this isn't a trans manga. I think about wanting to be a woman and in a lesbian relationship all the time, but that doesn't make me trans.

Ask any of your guy friends how often they think about wanting to be women and/or want to be in a lesbian relationship.

But all of my closest friends are sapphic women.

Ask your father if he's ever wanted to be a woman. Ask a colleague or classmate. Ask anyone.

And then, If any of your sapphic friends are trans women, ask them how they knew.

I did, a few years ago, and the answers I got have helped me a lot and made me a much happier person.

What if I said I have only been raised by women, have women relatives, and sapphic cis women friends? Should I ask any men in the thread right now?

Create a “male” imaginary friend and ask “him”

last edited at Aug 22, 2025 8:47PM

Should I ask any men in the thread right now?

I'll go ahead and tell you right now, as a cis male all of my life, I haven't personally fantasized about wanting to be a woman, much less have such a thing be a common occurrence. I've considered it as a hypothetical in conversation or when trying to be empathetic about an issue, but it's never been a fantasy of mine.

Should I ask any men in the thread right now?

I'll go ahead and tell you right now, as a cis male all of my life, I haven't personally fantasized about wanting to be a woman, much less have such a thing be a common occurrence. I've considered it as a hypothetical in conversation or when trying to be empathetic about an issue, but it's never been a fantasy of mine.

I have to varying extent, but generally restricted to physical-sexual aspects moreso than the societal aspects of gender. It also doesn't come from a place of dissatisfaction with who and what I am (which is why I don't see this as in and of itself indicative of "not being quite so cis"), but rather from a place of curiosity, a vain wish to share in an experience closed off to me.
I can also tell you that my wife, who happens to be a fujoshi, is the same in that regard (though obviously f->m in her case).

last edited at Aug 22, 2025 9:40PM

Because you're basically saying if someone is attracted to a trans woman (at least a pre-op trans woman), she can't be a lesbian.

Aaah, in that case we simply have different definitions for what is a lesbian. That's all.

If lesbians are (exclusively) attracted to women, and trans women are women, then lesbians are attracted to trans women. If you think that isn't the case, then which of the first two premises do you deny?

This thread has gone way off topic. I'm going to lock this until further notice.

Unlocking this thread, going to monitor it closely from here on. Rules are always available for review here. Don't be weird, please. Have fun.