To be fair, the MC is a bit of wacko for just knocking out someone for saying they were pitiful, when they were in an objectively pitiful situation, that they knew was pitiful.

Hard to feel bad for them.

And I don't see the potential here, just feels like generic fetish art with a rushed story.

If being a lesbian is "objectively pitiful" in your opinion, why are you even on this site?

Way to jump to conclusions.

While Mr. White Knight's choice of words, describing her as pitiful, was very poor (insert Joker from The Dark Knight meme here), he wasn't necessarily referring to her being a lesbian, but probably to her being ostracized and bullied – in other words: her suffering.
Whether he was doing it to actually intervene in the bullying (there are usually rather high-status defenders in a bullying dynamic that can and will take measures to somewhat shield the victim) or just wanted to pad his own ego remains unknown. It's hard to tell from that little snapshot, the exposition happened rather quickly, from what I remember it usually takes a bit longer for a bullying dynamic to establish and solidify. It works as a narrative setup, but could have been handled better. Having it spread out over more than a day or even told via flashback (as suggested previously) might have worked better.
Her reaction wasn't technically appropriate, but completely makes sense in context. I mean, the one time I started a smackdown in school was also just a misunderstanding during which I split the other guy's lip and he knocked me out. Not my proudest moment, and I'm pretty sure she'll eventually think the same way about it, even if it "made sense" in the situation.

Yikes, once again I am reminded of how blessed I was in some regards. I'm pretty sure my parents would not have minded me being gay, seeing as mom's a lecturer on gender studies and all... For a time I thought I was gay when I was fooling around with a bestie of mine (bi-curious would probably describe it best) and even told one of my classmates, who, probably fortunately, didn't tell anyone else. Even so, probably wouldn't have changed all that much, I was already the designated bullying victim at the time ;)
Looking back, it's kinda striking that there was no a single openly gay student at my school, though actually, most students' sexuality was more assumed than known – how could you really tell with single people? I think two of my friends were, but they never came out and I lost track of them since, and one pretty popular teacher was also known to be gay.
LGBT issues were a very minor part of sex ed in 2000s Germany. They were mentioned, but I don't think they played a major role in the curriculum.

And what's with that obscene hourly wage? That's more than I normally make (before tax) in a month, nearly twice what my wife makes in a month. I get it, working efficiently and being lazy as a freelancer can increase your hourly wage, but 530k Yen per hour? That's soccer player amounts of pay.

It's "getting lucky and being very successful as a writer" level of pay, or rather royalties.

E.g. if JKR made $1 billion, and lived for 100 years, that would be $1141/hour over her life. Her 'pay' per time spent writing Harry Potter would be 10-100x higher.

So yes, kind of like soccer player pay: being so entertaining that a whole lot of people want to give you money for it.

Way to jump to conclusions.

While Mr. White Knight's choice of words, describing her as pitiful, was very poor (insert Joker from The Dark Knight meme here), he wasn't necessarily referring to her being a lesbian, but probably to her being ostracized and bullied – in other words: her suffering.

Honestly, in this case, no. Considering that he's addressing the bullies, the way I see it, the argument is clearly not that she's pitiful because she's being bullied by them, but that the reason they shouldn't bully her is because "she's so pitiful" - and the one thing that makes her so pitiful in the eyes of the bigots where she lives, including her family, is her being gay.

Way to jump to conclusions.

While Mr. White Knight's choice of words, describing her as pitiful, was very poor (insert Joker from The Dark Knight meme here), he wasn't necessarily referring to her being a lesbian, but probably to her being ostracized and bullied – in other words: her suffering.

Honestly, in this case, no. Considering that he's addressing the bullies, the way I see it, the argument is clearly not that she's pitiful because she's being bullied by them, but that the reason they shouldn't bully her is because "she's so pitiful" - and the one thing that makes her so pitiful in the eyes of the bigots where she lives, including her family, is her being gay.

Not saying you're wrong, but the ad hominem (which is why I included that part in the post in the first place) was uncalled for.

last edited at Dec 14, 2021 2:18PM

Sorry. I usually try to be more polite and to keep such thoughts to myself, but I guess that post managed to push just the right buttons...

Seeing some people say this is unrealistic and then some people stick up for the guy is incredible! and no, I don't think she should've sit down and "explain" to the whole class her situation, and I HIGHLY doubt they would listen, she would've ended in the director's office anyway but instead of hitting her classmate, they would say she abused her "friend", her parents would react the exact same way too, clearly they already made their choice, she's the odd one out, the enemy of their "normal" days.

It's really sad how superficial most relationships can be when you're young in the face of real troubles.

I'm really glad this was translated, I love it so far, but as others have said already... I hope she gets her original hairstyle back lo/

last edited at Dec 14, 2021 4:14PM

Seeing some people say this is unrealistic and then some people stick up for the guy is incredible! and no, I don't think she should've sit down and "explain" to the whole class her situation, and I HIGHLY doubt they would listen, she would've ended in the director's office anyway but instead of hitting her classmate, they would say she abused her "friend", her parents would react the exact same way too, clearly they already made their choice, she's the odd one out, the enemy of their "normal" days.

It's really sad how superficial most relationships can be when you're young in the face of real troubles.

I'm really glad this was translated, I love it so far, but as others have said already... I hope she gets her original hairstyle back lo/

Yeah, it was a hard "no win" situation for her, and one that she could not really have seen coming.

As for sticking up for the guy: it's generally prudent to assume ignorance or incompetence before malicious intent (at least with people in real life). Both may be perceived as offensive, but the response to them should differ.

On another note, and please no one take this the wrong way, is it just me or were there some odd linguistic aspects to the first chapter? The use of an article in front of "the LGBT" struck me as odd. I can't recall ever reading it with an article (unless followed by something like "community").
The guy mentioned earlier phrasing it as her being pitiful was also an odd one. I take it at least the latter is "as close as can be" to the original's meaning, including the baffling negativity of "pitiful"? At least until her reaction, I had assumed that it was a slightly awkward translation rather than the classmate being utterly tactless.

Also, do psychiatrists still actually offer "treatment" for homosexuals? As someone who spent a few years studying psychology in university (a rather progressive bubble), that always strikes me as utterly outdated. Then again, they probably took her to some old-timey backwater shrink whose education happened in the '70s or so.

As for sticking up for the guy: it's generally prudent to assume ignorance or incompetence before malicious intent (at least with people in real life). Both may be perceived as offensive, but the response to them should differ.

Having looked at it again and again, I think it likely was the entire composition of that panel that made me assume the worst of him. The overly theatrical pose, the action lines, the look on his face and him pretty much shouting the words, it very much feels like he's acting out the role of a "saviour" or "hero" with no actual sincerity behind it. He makes a show of protecting her, while making sure through the choice of his words that everyone understands she's beneath them.

The guy mentioned earlier phrasing it as her being pitiful was also an odd one. I take it at least the latter is "as close as can be" to the original's meaning, including the baffling negativity of "pitiful"? At least until her reaction, I had assumed that it was a slightly awkward translation rather than the classmate being utterly tactless.

I absolutely had the opposite reaction—I thought the guy was being a grandstanding asshole who was basically aligned with the rest of the class as far as his attitude about homosexuality, only trying to make himself look good by defending the “outcast.”

Granted, my reading is partly determined by Shirokawa’s immediate, um, highly negative response. But the text itself does nothing to create sympathy for White Knight classmate.

it very much feels like he's acting out the role of a "saviour" or "hero" with no actual sincerity behind it. He makes a show of protecting her, while making sure through the choice of his words that everyone understands she's beneath them.

I absolutely had the opposite reaction—I thought the guy was being a grandstanding asshole who was basically aligned with the rest of the class as far as his attitude about homosexuality, only trying to make himself look good by defending the “outcast.”

I think those are perfectly reasonable readings.

Also, do psychiatrists still actually offer "treatment" for homosexuals? As someone who spent a few years studying psychology in university (a rather progressive bubble), that always strikes me as utterly outdated. Then again, they probably took her to some old-timey backwater shrink whose education happened in the '70s or so.

I dunno about licensed psychiatrists but "conversion therapy" is definitely still a thing.

To be fair, the MC is a bit of wacko for just knocking out someone for saying they were pitiful, when they were in an objectively pitiful situation, that they knew was pitiful.

Hard to feel bad for them.

And I don't see the potential here, just feels like generic fetish art with a rushed story.

If being a lesbian is "objectively pitiful" in your opinion, why are you even on this site?

No one said that her being a lesbian was "objectively pitiful", I was talking about her friends publically backstabbing her in front of her peers and outing her as a lesbian in an environment they know that most people would react negatively to, which I would hope you would find pitiful otherwise............. yeah.

When you put it this way, the MCS actions are even more ridiculous, like how in the world are people systemizing with this girl? Imagine defending someone because you aren't homophobic and don't feel like whats going on is right and just getting sucker-punched, and the story doesn't even try to make the MC look better after this either-or grow as a person, it just goes straight into the fetish bait, stuff like this annoys the hell out of me.

Fetish art is way more popular than serious stories and it's actually part of the reason why I took a 2-month break from reading manga.

last edited at Dec 17, 2021 8:08AM

Imagine defending someone because you aren't homophobic and don't feel like whats going on is right and just getting sucker-punched [...]

If that was what happened, things would be different, but the way I see it (see conversation above on this page), he was very much mocking her as well.

Honestly, this feels like a weirdly irrelevant debate (even by Dynasty standards) because, regardless of the guy's intent, it's pretty clear that she has has a hangup about being belittled in any way. With the way the situation escalated beforehand, she was already primed to view everyone in terms of enmity; he just happened to be the one left holding the bomb and accidentally hit a berserk button that was on a hair trigger.

Did she handle it well? Absolutely not.
Did she lash out at the right target? Not even remotely.
Is she a willful teen suddenly enduring real prejudice for the first time whose brain is also stewing in the chemically-induced stupidity of adolescence? Yep.
Did it bite her in the ass and make her situation even worse? Just like in real life.

Honestly, this feels like a weirdly irrelevant debate (even by Dynasty standards)

Please don't sell the Dynasty forums short--this is the place where it's been a hotly debated question as to whether fondling a cat-ear girl's cat ears in real life is a form of sexual assault despite the non-existence of cat-ear girls in real life.

last edited at Dec 17, 2021 2:08PM

Honestly, this feels like a weirdly irrelevant debate (even by Dynasty standards)

Please don't sell the Dynasty forums short--this is the place where it's been a hotly debated question as to whether fondling a cat-ear girls' cat ears in real life is a form of sexual assault despite the non-existence of cat-ear girls in real life.

Lmao x 1000000
There really was a debate like that?!?
The Politically Correct police is strong in this forum...

Honestly, this feels like a weirdly irrelevant debate (even by Dynasty standards)

Please don't sell the Dynasty forums short--this is the place where it's been a hotly debated question as to whether fondling a cat-ear girls' cat ears in real life is a form of sexual assault despite the non-existence of cat-ear girls in real life.

Lmao x 1000000
There really was a debate like that?!?
The Politically Correct police is strong in this forum...

I could be conglomerating discussions of Nakatani Nio's "Commearification" with various Itou Hachi beastkin brouhahas. But I think not.

Did she lash out at the right target? Not even remotely.

Oh, but his intent does make all the difference in whether he was the right target or not. Even if she may have gone slightly too far in clobbering him to that extent, as much as he may have deserved it.

I could be conglomerating discussions of Nakatani Nio's "Commearification" with various Itou Hachi beastkin brouhahas. But I think not.

Commearication is one of the greatest manga to have ever graced this site!
... and they were Classmates!

last edited at Dec 17, 2021 5:25PM

DschingisKhan posted:

Honestly, this feels like a weirdly irrelevant debate (even by Dynasty standards) because, regardless of the guy's intent, it's pretty clear that she has has a hangup about being belittled in any way. With the way the situation escalated beforehand, she was already primed to view everyone in terms of enmity; he just happened to be the one left holding the bomb and accidentally hit a berserk button that was on a hair trigger.

Did she handle it well? Absolutely not.
Did she lash out at the right target? Not even remotely.
Is she a willful teen suddenly enduring real prejudice for the first time whose brain is also stewing in the chemically-induced stupidity of adolescence? Yep.
Did it bite her in the ass and make her situation even worse? Just like in real life.

Favourite post on this topic for sure. She is far more interesting a character for having lashed out at (perhaps) the wrong person. I'm left hoping the ambiguity was intentional; to explicitly paint him as a bad/sinister actor in this sets her up as a valiant warrior against all manner of oppression. Stories like that are far less interesting to me than ones about characters just doing their best and sometimes seeing their flaws make a mess of things.

last edited at Dec 18, 2021 8:49AM

Imagine defending someone because you aren't homophobic and don't feel like whats going on is right and just getting sucker-punched [...]

If that was what happened, things would be different, but the way I see it (see conversation above on this page), he was very much mocking her as well.

I feel like your point of view is unrealistic unless you reach into another galaxy and even then you would have to assume the worst of a guy who only had 1 page to explain himself.

At that point, you're just saying no matter what he did he would have been in the wrong, it's a lot more likely that the MC was just being an idiot.

I mean, no matter what her punching him was a total asshole move, at least let the guy explain himself.

Everybody’s ignoring the fairly obvious plot function of that scene where Dickhead-kun gets punched: to establish Chekhov’s Martial Arts Ability, which will no doubt come in handy as the MCs eventually develop their relationship outside of the house.

And the guy did explain himself by calling her “pitiful”—that’s why he got punched.

Well, for me it's obvious that the author wanted to paint him as someone who's trying to do good but with the wrong moral or sense of superiority, that ends making things worst for her, had she accepted his help, is like accepting that she's in the wrong, or abnormal.

If you try to imagine the situation with her not being lesbian but something else with prejudices attached by the most ignorant people, you could see how bad that really was, I won't make a direct comparison because that breaks the rules of the site.

Is true, there was no right way out of there once her secret was exposed with ill intentions, the author wanted to show the hypocrisy of the classroom (or society...........yes we live in one), that even if she were presented in a different light (without the sexual harassment allegations), it wouldn't end well on the long run.

I don't think she made a mistake, she was too innocent to know.

Did she lash out at the right target? Not even remotely.

Oh, but his intent does make all the difference in whether he was the right target or not. Even if she may have gone slightly too far in clobbering him to that extent, as much as he may have deserved it.

How do you figure? I mean if you're taking a moralistic stance and you're omniscient, sure, go off then. But that's irrelevant to the story.

From the Watsonian perspective, think about what the onlooker sees: Boy tries to defend her and That Lesbian goes fucking psycho on him! Conspicuously absent, on the other hand, is decking the bitches who betrayed and outed her to everyone. Adult authority figures wouldn't look kindly on the latter, but are going to a much dimmers view of an "unprovoked assault" of a good Samaritan. It makes her look unhinged (which, okay fair enough).

From the Doylist view, his entire function is to serve as a springboard to get Ayu out of the school environment, establish her latent rage, expose her response to triggering language, and create an opening to elucidate the ways in which her parents are shitlords.

His intent does. Not. Matter. He does not matter. He barely had a name. To what end are you trying to play devil's advocate here?

His intent does. Not. Matter. He does not matter. He barely had a name. To what end are you trying to play devil's advocate here?

Devil's advocate? Not at all - that would mean I would actually not agree with her. And I most certainly do.

From the Watsonian perspective, think about what the onlooker sees: Boy tries to defend her and That Lesbian goes fucking psycho on him! Conspicuously absent, on the other hand, is decking the bitches who betrayed and outed her to everyone. Adult authority figures wouldn't look kindly on the latter, but are going to a much dimmers view of an "unprovoked assault" of a good Samaritan. It makes her look unhinged (which, okay fair enough).

Does it matter what the onlookers think, though? She felt the most wronged by him, which is why she retaliated against him. Regardless of how anyone else sees this, what matters here is whether he really wanted to do so, and if those of us who believe that his intent was indeed to belittle her with that comment are correct, he was certainly the right target. Even if she may have overdone it after already having been pushed to her breaking point. Hard to truly blame her after all that she had to go through, though.