Forum › Stripping the Flesh discussion

joined Apr 4, 2021

I feel kind of offended by that "a man has to be a hunter and shoot things dead to be a man" stereotype.

Who are you to tell someone that they cant feel a certain way and do X thing, especially if it helps with their dysphoria? Im trans mtf, and I love really cute feminine things. Those are stereotypical. Does it offend you that I enjoy those stereotyped things?

joined Nov 5, 2015

That's not tears no the hell these are just sweat dripping down my eyeballs

Snek
joined Oct 2, 2014

Now that was a very emotional story. Had me tearing up more than once or twice. The characters are all so well made that they all feel like real people. And Takatou is such an awesome friend. He stuck with Chiaki and helped him even after they grew up.

I do have a question though, what was Chiaki's father's reasoning for not wanting to go through with the cancer treatment?

D2ad4ba6-d1f7-4800-86c3-5a64a1f1e50f
joined Jan 15, 2017

This was such a good read. I love this so much

Gudakoehehe
joined Aug 30, 2020

Some trans people set a standard for themselves as what it means to be their gender. As a trans woman myself, my personal ideal is rather traditionally feminine, though in my case I've come a decent ways in making exceptions for typically masculine hobbies or interests I still retain. They are not "men's hobbies/interests" or "women's hobbies/interests" any more, they are my interests. That out of the way though, my point was going to be that Chiaki's ideal for masculinity seems to be set in his father.

So, for Chiaki, presumably to be a man is to be like his father. His father is a hunter. For Chiaki to be a man, by his own standards, is to be a hunter. And above all this is to be a man and to be accepted by his father, so for his father to finally agree to hunt with him is his father seeing him as the man he wants to be.

Maybe if this were a longer series, we might see Chiaki coming to terms with some feminine interests he has and finally internalizing them not as gendered interests, but as his interests. This is a one-shot, however, and I personally think it handled the aspects that it did just fine.

I would like to hope that we can all agree though: Takatou is a man among men and sets a high bar for friends. You rock, Takatou.

Yuri Yuriyuri
Miowink
joined Aug 21, 2020

That was really good. I cried.

(y)
joined Jan 9, 2017

Im kinda wondering, how much of her motivation stems from being told that "girls cant do that". Its kinda framed like its the driving factor, which would be bullshit.

Well at least I'm not the only one who got that impression. It's internally consistent within the story. Looking at this page, there are hints at Chiaki's condition being more than "just" the result of socialization with utterly inflexible, prescriptive gender roles, though it's pretty safe to assume that tomboyish behaviour (and thus Chiaki's personality) had already been thoroughly judged as inappropriate by the father. Overall, however, the story gave me the impression that Chiaki wouldn't have developed gender dysphoria had "she" been accepted as a tomboy.

Given the way things developed, Chiaki did what he had to in order to have a chance at happiness, regardless of what cause we read into it.

I don't think that explains why he was so disgusted at his period or dreamed of getting his breasts removed though, it's not really a tomboy thing. I think the signs were pretty clear from him reacting to his secondary sex characteristics and sexualfunctions.

Remember what s/he say at the end of that dream "thanks Dad, now i can go hunting too" that dream clearly showed how s/he wanted to be a boy so s/he could do the things s/he wanted to do. I dont know if it was the intention or not But 'my gender restricts me from doing what i like' is at red line going through the story

Gudakoehehe
joined Aug 30, 2020

Remember what s/he say at the end of that dream "thanks Dad, now i can go hunting too" that dream clearly showed how s/he wanted to be a boy so s/he could do the things s/he wanted to do. I dont know if it was the intention or not But 'my gender restricts me from doing what i like' is at red line going through the story

You could just say "he" you know

last edited at Apr 4, 2021 6:28PM

anotherdayintheshade
Dynasty%20scans
joined Jan 27, 2015

Can't wait to be able to afford top surgery.

Transcendent Egg
Egg
joined Sep 27, 2018

I don't understand the discourse that says "you're only /actually/ trans if your sense of your gender isn't affected by how people treat you" because gender is social. No one is born with a gender; we (society) assign gender to babies and when it grows up it will either accept or reject this assignment. No one's sense of gender is unaffected by society and social relations. I'm not gonna (for example) contradict some cis guy's gender like "you only consider yourself a man because masculinity was imposed upon you from birth. If it weren't you wouldn't have formed a male gender identity", I'm gonna have some good faith that he's done the introspection that I'm in no position to do for him.

Screenshot%202018-12-25%20at%2001.01.20
joined Jul 22, 2017

Skywalker, for the love of god, please just say "he". Chiaki is a man. It's there on the first page. The entire comic is about the fact he's a man.

Anyway, regarding the "hunting and scars are masculine" thing, a friend (who is also trans, but with a different relationship to masculinity than me) said that the thing with scars and hunting represent masculinity for Chiaki simply because his frame of reference for masculinity is his father. And his father probably was using gender as an excuse to keep his child safe, and like he himself said, he was making assumptions about what would make Chiaki safe and happy.

Re: The Discourse - Transcendent Egg is 100% correct, if someone is """trans because of trauma""" or whatever, they're still trans. If they're "trans because they want to do a gendered thing" they're still trans. Being trans has to do with the relationship between identity and assignment; whatever leads a person to their identity isn't a factor.

joined Oct 23, 2020

Holy shit I love this

Absolutely%20disgusting
joined Feb 27, 2021

Everyone needs a friend like Takatou!

joined May 1, 2018

I don't understand the discourse that says "you're only /actually/ trans if your sense of your gender isn't affected by how people treat you" because gender is social. No one is born with a gender; we (society) assign gender to babies and when it grows up it will either accept or reject this assignment. No one's sense of gender is unaffected by society and social relations. I'm not gonna (for example) contradict some cis guy's gender like "you only consider yourself a man because masculinity was imposed upon you from birth. If it weren't you wouldn't have formed a male gender identity", I'm gonna have some good faith that he's done the introspection that I'm in no position to do for him.

We cannot really say that gender is entirely social. Gender roles on the other hand, are entirely social. Things like clothes, how we are "supposed to behave", what we are supposed to like, can all be viewed as completely arbritrary, and therefore, as a construct. And the "assignment of gender to babies" are more like imposing expectations of gender based on genitalia.
Gender also has a biological and psicological aspect. It is extremely hard to properly convey to a cis person, as trans, how it actually is to feel unconfortable with your body. Something like it doesn't match. This manga shows it very clearly with the table scene. You can see gender dysphoria being manifested towards the primary and secondary sexual characteristics. But it goes way deeper than that. There is also, yes, the social aspect, but they are only a part of the whole problem.
I hope I could clarify a bit on what you don't understand.

joined Sep 6, 2018

Movie material...

There should be a tag for this for this kind of manga. I put it on par with “Sunstone”... for it helps explain things to those who are clueless.

Profile%20pic%20%2311
joined Apr 27, 2018

Wow, that was really well done and it felt very real.

joined Sep 6, 2018

Now that was a very emotional story. Had me tearing up more than once or twice. The characters are all so well made that they all feel like real people. And Takatou is such an awesome friend. He stuck with Chiaki and helped him even after they grew up.

I do have a question though, what was Chiaki's father's reasoning for not wanting to go through with the cancer treatment?

If I may speak my opinion: It’s a question of quality of life. The cancer may be at an advanced stage to where even chemotherapy may not eliminate all of the cancer— so his health will suffer with the chemo and he could still die anyways. The costs for such treatment is horrendously expensive, and hunters relying on kills for food don’t seem to be rich. So he either lives like a pauper or dies earlier like a hunter would without the medical care.

Some compromise must have been reached between dad and daughter over covering the medical bills.

Gay
joined Jun 13, 2016

that was good

Transcendent Egg
Egg
joined Sep 27, 2018

I don't understand the discourse that says "you're only /actually/ trans if your sense of your gender isn't affected by how people treat you" because gender is social. No one is born with a gender; we (society) assign gender to babies and when it grows up it will either accept or reject this assignment. No one's sense of gender is unaffected by society and social relations. I'm not gonna (for example) contradict some cis guy's gender like "you only consider yourself a man because masculinity was imposed upon you from birth. If it weren't you wouldn't have formed a male gender identity", I'm gonna have some good faith that he's done the introspection that I'm in no position to do for him.

We cannot really say that gender is entirely social. Gender roles on the other hand, are entirely social. Things like clothes, how we are "supposed to behave", what we are supposed to like, can all be viewed as completely arbritrary, and therefore, as a construct. And the "assignment of gender to babies" are more like imposing expectations of gender based on genitalia.
Gender also has a biological and psicological aspect. It is extremely hard to properly convey to a cis person, as trans, how it actually is to feel unconfortable with your body. Something like it doesn't match. This manga shows it very clearly with the table scene. You can see gender dysphoria being manifested towards the primary and secondary sexual characteristics. But it goes way deeper than that. There is also, yes, the social aspect, but they are only a part of the whole problem.
I hope I could clarify a bit on what you don't understand.

First, I can assure you that I am well acquainted with gender dysphoria. I do not require your assistance in this respect.

Second, you misunderstand what I mean in saying that gender is social. This may have been my fault for being imprecise. What I meant is that every person's conception of their own personhood with regard to gender (to whatever degree it is in conflict or accordance with the hegemonic ideology) is irrevocably molded by the social forces of the society they reside within (because gender is socially reproduced and enforced). To say that a person is only trans if their gender is pure of social influence is therefore patently nonsensical. (Also, when I said "I don't understand" that was polite for "this is wrong and incoherent".)

To be transgender is to contradict the social forces that assign gender (male, female) to infants. This contradiction is necessarily socially contingent.

last edited at Apr 5, 2021 12:45AM

joined Sep 6, 2018

I’ve never seen the view count be so high before (36k-ish so far) on this website. I think somebody will snatch up the rights publish this one elsewhere soon.

Edit: Whoever portrays “Takatou” in this will get Best Supporting Actor Award...

last edited at Apr 5, 2021 2:05AM

A072566e-7fb8-4b31-9c9a-13fca6b9a7f6
joined May 1, 2020

It’s so weird to found a manga that explores transexuallity this good, this kinda give me the same vibes as Togata from Fire Punch, thank u so much for bring it!!! <3

joined Sep 6, 2018

I don't understand the discourse that says "you're only /actually/ trans if your sense of your gender isn't affected by how people treat you" because gender is social. No one is born with a gender; we (society) assign gender to babies and when it grows up it will either accept or reject this assignment. No one's sense of gender is unaffected by society and social relations. I'm not gonna (for example) contradict some cis guy's gender like "you only consider yourself a man because masculinity was imposed upon you from birth. If it weren't you wouldn't have formed a male gender identity", I'm gonna have some good faith that he's done the introspection that I'm in no position to do for him.

We cannot really say that gender is entirely social. Gender roles on the other hand, are entirely social. Things like clothes, how we are "supposed to behave", what we are supposed to like, can all be viewed as completely arbritrary, and therefore, as a construct. And the "assignment of gender to babies" are more like imposing expectations of gender based on genitalia.
Gender also has a biological and psicological aspect. It is extremely hard to properly convey to a cis person, as trans, how it actually is to feel unconfortable with your body. Something like it doesn't match. This manga shows it very clearly with the table scene. You can see gender dysphoria being manifested towards the primary and secondary sexual characteristics. But it goes way deeper than that. There is also, yes, the social aspect, but they are only a part of the whole problem.
I hope I could clarify a bit on what you don't understand.

First, I can assure you that I am well acquainted with gender dysphoria. I do not require your assistance in this respect.

Second, you misunderstand what I mean in saying that gender is social. This may have been my fault for being imprecise. What I meant is that every person's conception of their own personhood with regard to gender (to whatever degree it is in conflict or accordance with the hegemonic ideology) is irrevocably molded by the social forces of the society they reside within (because gender is socially reproduced and enforced). To say that a person is only trans if their gender is pure of social influence is therefore patently nonsensical. (Also, when I said "I don't understand" that was polite for "this is wrong and incoherent".)

To be transgender is to contradict the social forces that assign gender (male, female) to infants. This contradiction is necessarily socially contingent.

MY HEAD HURTS!— “Kabloooie!” (Head explodes).

Mint
joined Jun 5, 2015

Transcendent Egg posted:

To be transgender is to contradict the social forces that assign gender (male, female) to infants. This contradiction is necessarily socially contingent.

I agree that gender is social, since gender doesn't exist, but saying being trans is based solely on rejecting social expectations is flat out wrong. While gender is a lie, your biology is real and many trans people main source of dysphoria is disconnect between what they feel their body should be and what it is. Even without social expectations they'd still want to change it, because it feels wrong. There's no society at play there. So saying that being trans is all about rejecting social forces is pretty much straight saying people who mainly are unhappy with their biology aren't trans.

last edited at Apr 5, 2021 5:21AM

New%20dynasty%20reader%20profile
joined Oct 22, 2018

I kinda avoided the story for a couple of days due to the kinda unsettling title, but it ended up a pretty good and educating story. 9/10, would recommend.

Yuu
joined Mar 28, 2015

I think that cis people (like me) can't really comment on what trans people actually feel without sounding patronizing.

The only thing we can do is acknowledge them and support them if they need it.

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