Forum › 2DK, G-pen, Alarm clock discussion

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

Here's hoping they kiss in the next chapter, but that's wishful thinking

sobs

So here's to hoping they kiss by the end of volume one!

What kind of accent would they kiss in?

A2bcf11834a1918b3f09b4219b2a099f_r
joined Aug 16, 2014

Ever considered that maybe, just maybe, the person that's translating the series and has read much further than most of the people here might know things that aren't obvious or weren't revealed yet and that shed some light on the character's sexuality?

Nishiki%20gosu%20rori%20dark%20hair%20sm
joined Jan 11, 2015

I don't know what's gonna happen in the story until I see it here on Dynasty! True story!

Jamal_Williams69
joined May 13, 2018

Isnae

Off-model%20ishibashi-san
joined Aug 20, 2018

I love Ohsawa's art, and I'm really happy this is being translated again. Thank you!!

Screen%20shot%202017-11-22%20at%201.04.04%20pm
joined Nov 18, 2017

Who tf puts salads in jars, that sounds awful.

Seriously though. Please get rid of the accent. I'm fine with most of it, then I spend 10 minutes deciding how Dinae is meant to be pronounced.

Mask
joined Jan 6, 2015

I can only read it as an angry man's voice. Fairly unpleasant.

52722-l
joined Nov 8, 2017

Oh wow, this manga is really nice. :O

Seriously though. Please get rid of the accent. I'm fine with most of it, then I spend 10 minutes deciding how Dinae is meant to be pronounced.

Same lol

Also, I can kinda imagine Kae-chan voiced by Kana Hanazawa (Satou from Happy Sugar Life and AE-3083 from Hataraku Saibou for recent examples) if this got an anime.

last edited at Aug 22, 2018 3:10AM

Untitled
joined May 2, 2018

This just gets better and better. But I've never heard of jar salad before, or seen one of those roller... cleaning... things.

_20180228_203946
joined Jan 24, 2018

Oooo, well I'm hooked. Looks like a nice warm relationship is slowly developing... After reading chapter 3 it dawned on me tho, was Kae just trying to wine and dine and 69 protagonist-chan?... Flat out almost succeeded as far as I'm concerned

Tron-legacy
joined Dec 11, 2017

Here's hoping they kiss in the next chapter, but that's wishful thinking

sobs

So here's to hoping they kiss by the end of volume one!

What kind of accent would they kiss in?

Deep appalacia.

Tron-legacy
joined Dec 11, 2017

I can only read it as an angry man's voice. Fairly unpleasant.

Youtube "Merida Wreck it Ralph 2"

Tron-legacy
joined Dec 11, 2017

If by widely you mean majority of people don't mind it/like it, then yes.

Yeah, calling bullshit on that. 90% of the comments are talking about the dialect. If your claim was true then the majority would be about the story. But its not, the issue with the odd dialect has overshadowed any discussion about whats actually happening in the manga.

You're both probably right and wrong. People with complaints are more likely to post, but a lot of people just -don't post-.. Most people either just accept it/deal with it in silence, or just stop reading because it annoys them. The truth of the matter is we don't KNOW how the majority of readers feel about it. It is certainly contentious here on the forum, although there are a lot of people saying positive things in response to the complaints.

But no matter what, the complaints are going to keep coming in indefinitely, because no matter how well intentioned the reasoning for the accent is, a lot of people -do- skip translator's notes, and so new readers are always going to be wandering in without having read the explanation. They're gonna see a bunch of people complaining about the accent, and immediately gripe-post questioning why it's still going on if so many people have the same reaction they did.

I mean, best case scenario is that this is going to be a perpetual game of whack-a-mole for the duration that this is being translated and posted on this site.

I get the translator's reasoning, and I agree with it in principle, but no matter what, every solution to that problem is a compromise. Using accents associated with the English language to represent accents associated with Japanese is a tough sell, because you bring all the baggage of people's prejudices and stereotypes along with them.

Kansai/southerner kind of works because the stereotypes are similar, and we've all become kind of accustomed to that one, but some people still find it distracting. Are Kyushu/hakata stereotypes similar to Scottish stereotypes? I don't have the slightest idea.

But keeping it constructive, what are the options? Changing the way it's translated means some understandable frustration for Ropponmatsu and also maybe the readers that like the accent. The accent -does- convey the general idea well enough. Nanami has an accent that is very distinct and makes it hard for people around her to follow everything she says when she slips into it. It's not that hard for the readers to follow. I do think adding disclaimers (big text "ABOUT THE ACCENT") to the beginning of each chapter might help drive home the idea and reduce complaints here, but I am pretty sure, as mentioned, that no matter what, we're going to have to knock down complaints in this forum topic pretty continuously. I'd hate to see Ropponmatsu get sick of that and quit translating over it.

The alternatives? I mean, switching to a different accent isn't likely to result in anything different. Switching to a southern accent would just get people mis-coding her as kansai, and anything else runs into the same difficulties as scots. They could stick brackets or braces or something around her dialogue when she speaks in hakata, but it doesn't quite carry the same effect. I think that's probably the best alternative, as dropping the accent entirely does kind of change her personality and could even just straight up require rewrites of scenes depending on what goes down in the future. (I'm speculating there, I haven't read ahead)

I think the best option is probably to just stick with giving her an accent, and maybe running the dialogue past an actual scottish person for authenticity if possible, and just get used to having a padded mallet at the ready to deal with the inevitable complaints.

W
joined Jun 5, 2015

Heavensrun posted:

a lot of people -do- skip translator's notes, and so new readers are always going to be wandering in without having read the explanation.

That is their problem if they read something for free and don't even bother to read everything translator included in their work. All this only make Ropp want to quit translating, so you can all thank people like that for this. You are honestly so spoiled and ungrateful/ She shouldn't have tl it in the first place and you should just read it yourself or pay her for translation. Yet she is spending her free time and yet people complain non stop and wants everything to cater to them.

Using accents associated with the English language to represent accents associated with Japanese is a tough sell, because you bring all the baggage of people's prejudices and stereotypes along with them.

Only if you are shallow person who only focuses on stereotypes. Become better person and then you will enjoy this translation no problem.

Also everyone on dynasty discord were fine with it and made fun of people who complain here about it.

last edited at Aug 22, 2018 6:40AM

Tron-legacy
joined Dec 11, 2017

There are also implications that she only dated him so she could live out an “ideal life” - i.e. get married, have kids, have a career and so on. Chapter 1 sort of hints that she’s had history with girls, and chapter 3 takes that even further with her pointing out what her “type of girl” is like.

Although this isn’t what you’re necessarily implying, I’d like to stress that just because she’s dated a guy doesn’t have to mean that she’s bisexual.

Chapter 2 pg 6, "Meanwhile, I dinnae feel like I'll be able to find a new boyfriend, or even a girlfriend, for that matter..."

How is she not bisexual?

She frequently expressed that she is trying to conform to a standard life. It is not uncommon in cultures like Japan, with prejudiced mainstream subcultures, for closeted gay people to force themselves into "normal" relationships, dating the opposite sex even if they're not into them.

She had a "fiancee", But she described calling him as "a duty I can't forget". That is not how someone talks about conversation with a loved one that they were into that they miss being with. She talks about how marriage is on the checklist of her life. She consistently talks about it as though it doesn't matter who with. When she's stressed out from Kae-chan not picking up the phone, she literally says it's the first time she was happy that her boyfriend was there for her, at which point we find out she has a history with girls from college, he thinks she isn't into him, then he dumps her. Her literal reaction is "I thought since we were so far apart, he wouldn't see through me." indicating that yeah, he hit the nail on the head. She's barely depressed and doesn't shed a single tear.

She -could- be bi? I mean it isn't impossible, but there's no evidence of it. Her relationship with her boyfriend was definitely not something she was actually into at all.

last edited at Aug 22, 2018 8:39AM

Tron-legacy
joined Dec 11, 2017

That is their problem if they read something for free and don't even bother to read everything translator included in their work. All this only make Ropp want to quit translating, so you can all thank people like that for this. You are honestly so spoiled and ungrateful/ She shouldn't have tl it in the first place and you should just read it yourself or pay her for translation. Yet she is spending her free time and yet people complain non stop and wants everything to cater to them.

I think you should curb the 'spoiled and ungrateful' talk and tone down the defensiveness. I don't know if that's directed at me, or if I'm just catching the edge of your disdain for the people that are bitching, but I'm just talking about what is inevitably going to happen, I'm not making a judgement on whether it's right.

-Please- actually read what I'm saying instead of just being defensive at me because I'm explaining a position you disagree with.

I definitely don't want Ropp to quit translating, and I'm not trying to make her feel bad. If you actually read my post, I'm trying to offer constructive discussion on how to handle the problem. I actually read the translator's note, and I've commented repeatedly on here that I understand the reasoning. But I recognize that many people blow past those pages, because they often don't hold much of interest. If that's going to piss you off, well, get over it, because it's never going to go away entirely, and not everybody that comments on it is some awful shallow person that deserves disdain.

Using accents associated with the English language to represent accents associated with Japanese is a tough sell, because you bring all the baggage of people's prejudices and stereotypes along with them.

Only if you are shallow person who only focuses on stereotypes. Become better person and then you will enjoy this translation no problem.

Oh, bullshit. The entire point of prejudices is that you don't know they're there until they butt into something, but that isn't even the point of what I'm saying.

What I'm talking about is the unconscious associations people make when they hear a particular accent.

What do you think is being conveyed when you see a southern drawl written into a character's accent?

A shallow person might immediately think "Hick, hillbilly, redneck" or any number of perjoratives, But even without being mean about it, there are other associations that many people would think of: "Rural, laid-back, outgoing" These are stereotypes, but they're not negative, and they're often correct anyway.

Kansai->Southern happened in the first place because stereotypes for Southern people are similar to the stereotypes that Tokyoites carry towards people from the Kansai region. That's important not because the stereotypes are true, but because it better translates the intent of the author.

A manga artist gives a character Kansai dialect for a -reason-. They're either trying to play off the stereotype or subvert it. Either way, they are always aware of it, and the stereotype itself PROVIDES CONTEXT FOR THE CHARACTER.

One person on here was like Scottish=engineer. They say it's not a star trek thing, but I'd bet you a pound sterling that the reason they have that association is because they've seen a lot of Scottish scientists and engineers in fiction, and most or all of those Scottish engineers were homages to Scotty from Star Trek.

What stereotypes do people associate with scottish people? Stubbornness? Sass? Rebelliousness maybe? Tendency to swear? Fondess for alcohol? Being aware of those stereotypes doesn't mean you -buy into- them, but when you encounter a character in fiction with a scottish accent, they come to mind, and they inform your perspective on what the author is trying to do.

This is why I question whether Scottish is a good match for Hakata. Because why did the author give her a Hakata dialect in the first place? What stereotypes exist? Is the author subverting them or playing into them? Do the same stereotypes carry across to the English reader if you give her a Scottish accent? I'm not saying it -isn't- a good match, mind you, I have no idea.

Also everyone on dynasty discord were fine with it and made fun of people who complain here about it.

Sitting in an echo chamber of likeminded people and making fun of people who you don't agree with accomplishes NOTHING constructive. Maybe you should try having a discussion about -why- so many people are complaining and what can be done to cut down on it.

last edited at Aug 22, 2018 10:03AM

Nishiki%20gosu%20rori%20dark%20hair%20sm
joined Jan 11, 2015

@Heavensrun
Believe me, I've spent a lot of time thinking about what the best course of action would be. After the initial backlash, I was devastated, because I personally felt that I'd given a good and faithful rendition of how Nanami appears in Japanese, to English speakers; she has a very heavy accent that contrasts greatly against the proper and perfect businesswoman image she has. Scots was the obvious and most fitting choice, in my opinion, specifically because it brings with it a similar stereotype, and is hard to understand for many who are unfamiliar with it, just like a Hakata accent, along with being easy to convey in text, unlike most other accents (compare written American vs British English).

The grave miscalculation of mine, however, was that I'd never realised just how much people hate non-American standard English. To me, it seemed natural that if a character has a heavy accent in the original, I'll translate her with a heavy accent as well. I have also seen Scottish used in other translations, even official licensed releases, for example an old favourite of mine, Excel Saga (big surprise, I'm sure), where one character's Okayama accent is rendered as Scottish, and written in an extremely non-standard, mainly phonetic way. This is to say that I knew that this was something even large publishers do in their translations.

As I mentioned — even though I've developed rather thick skin after getting into scanlations — I felt horrible after the initial backlash, and almost completely lost motivation to work on the series, however after hearing voices of support from fellow translators and Japanese readers who can tell just how #thicc Nanami's accent is, it made me feel that I made the right decision after all, as many of them agreed that it would be somewhat of a character assassination to make her speak standard English in the translation.

TL;DR
I've heard the negative opinions, and I understand where you're coming from, but understanding doesn't mean I agree with you. The accent stays, because I feel that it is the best way to translate convey the original content in English. You can either accept it, or move on.

last edited at Aug 22, 2018 5:23PM

joined Aug 22, 2018

@Heavensrun
Believe me, I've spent a lot of time thinking about what the best course of action would be. After the initial backlash, I was devastated, because I personally felt that I'd given a good and faithful rendition of how Nanami appears in Japanese, to English speakers; she has a very heavy accent that contrasts greatly against the proper and perfect businesswoman image she has. Scots was the obvious and most fitting choice, in my opinion, specifically because it brings with it a similar stereotype, and is hard to understand for many who are unfamiliar with it, just like a Hakata accent, along with being easy to convey in text, unlike most other accents (compare written American vs British English).

The grave miscalculation of mine, however, was that I'd never realised just how much people hate non-American standard English. To me, it seemed natural that if a character has a heavy accent in the original, I'll translate her with a heavy accent as well. I have also seen Scottish used in other translations, even official licensed releases, for example an old favourite of mine, Excel Saga (big surprise, I'm sure), where one character's Kansai accent is rendered as Scottish, and written in an extremely non-standard, mainly phonetic way. This is to say that I knew that this was something even large publishers do in their translations.

As I mentioned — even though I've developed rather thick skin after getting into scanlations — I felt horrible after the initial backlash, and almost completely lost motivation to work on the series, however after hearing voices of support from fellow translators and Japanese readers who can tell just how #thicc Nanami's accent is, it made me feel that I made the right decision after all, as many of them agreed that it would be somewhat of a character assassination to make her speak standard English in the translation.

TL;DR
I've heard the negative opinions, and I understand where you're coming from, but understanding doesn't mean I agree with you. The accent stays, because I feel that it is the best way to translate convey the original content in English. You can either accept it, or move on.

I will be moving on, but I hella respect what you're saying my guy. Keep it up, see you in the next story!

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

I just want to say that I have great sympathy and respect for anyone who voluntarily gets themselves caught in the cleft stick that is translation from one language to another, especially when characterization depends heavily on the original language being accented or in dialect.

Communicating and understanding spoken dialect can often be a real struggle for writers and readers in the original language, and there will almost never be a perfect match in a second language for all the connotations and cultural associations that go along with that specific dialect in the original. (And, of course, those associations and connotations are not universally shared or understood identically within the original culture to start with.)

But here is a line I learned from translated manga: keep doing your best!

And thanks.

Download
joined Jun 4, 2015

Freya posted:

Mostly from the translators from danbooru, I've always accepted an american southern dialect for the equivalence of kansai ben or similar; esp from Moonspeaker.

The issue is, it is nothing like kansai ben.

The current is that much closer? I believe it needs an accent to portray the difference in speaking but it seems almost ironic that some spots need translated to understand the translation.

https://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/3115086?tags=ryuujou_%28kantai_collection%29+translated

Easy to understand, yet still conveys the idea that there is a difference in speaking

last edited at Aug 22, 2018 4:07PM

A2bcf11834a1918b3f09b4219b2a099f_r
joined Aug 16, 2014

Freya posted:

Mostly from the translators from danbooru, I've always accepted an american southern dialect for the equivalence of kansai ben or similar; esp from Moonspeaker.

The issue is, it is nothing like kansai ben.

The current is that much closer? I believe it needs an accent to portray the difference in speaking but it seems almost ironic that some spots need translated to understand the translation.

https://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/3226160

Easy to understand, yet still conveys the idea that there is a difference in speaking

You might want to read Roppo's notes here , or if you want details here. Or maybe this.

Download
joined Jun 4, 2015

Freya posted:

Mostly from the translators from danbooru, I've always accepted an american southern dialect for the equivalence of kansai ben or similar; esp from Moonspeaker.

The issue is, it is nothing like kansai ben.

The current is that much closer? I believe it needs an accent to portray the difference in speaking but it seems almost ironic that some spots need translated to understand the translation.

https://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/3226160

Easy to understand, yet still conveys the idea that there is a difference in speaking

You might want to read Roppo's notes here , or if you want details here. Or maybe this.

I've read them several times as I did the first read through... Not sure what you're trying to point out here.
Mine which you seem to have disregarded, is the fact that the current translations need a translation of themselves for the general reader; which somewhat defeats the purpose to elaborate on how different the two dialects are.

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

I’ve had no problem reading the dialect as translated. Maybe that’s because I’ve seen Scottish dialect in print before.

A2bcf11834a1918b3f09b4219b2a099f_r
joined Aug 16, 2014

The current is that much closer? I believe it needs an accent to portray the difference in speaking

She speaks with a hakata dialect [...] [that] even a native speaker [...] will have a hard time understanding

[...] she has a very heavy accent that contrasts greatly against the proper and perfect businesswoman image she has. Scots was the obvious and most fitting choice, in my opinion, specifically because it brings with it a similar stereotype, and is hard to understand for many who are unfamiliar with it, just like a Hakata accent, along with being easy to convey in text [...]

This is "how much closer" the accent is in the TL's opinion.

[...] the fact that the current translations need a translation of themselves for the general reader; [...]

even a native speaker [...] will have a hard time understanding

That is, a jp person reading the original manga. They don't get to have a "TL" either. And Roppo's TL is hardly difficult to follow. If you think it is, please never touch Irvine Welsh's books.

Nishiki%20gosu%20rori%20dark%20hair%20sm
joined Jan 11, 2015

I would like to believe that my wording is on the light side compared to some alternatives from actual licensed works.


Excel Saga - Vol. 01 - Viz Media

last edited at Aug 22, 2018 5:34PM

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